The Most Elegant Answer is Always More Questions

[Skyblaze]

Greetings!
Well, I've been stalking this forum for quite a while, but finally dived in and signed up, just because everyone loves a close community, and I just can't help but voice my opinions. :roll:

Well, where to start?
I suppose, to start with the main question - what is DMT?
From what I've read, what I know of other things (basic neurochemistry, philosophy and most importantly a mind that never stops pondering), and what I've come to believe; DMT is a mystery. The science is fairly simple, relatively speaking. It's a tryptamine, similar in structure to serotonin and hence melatonin, which antagonises the brain's 5HT (I think) receptors.
But let's be honest, that's not really an answer. It doesn't explain the strangeness behind it. Take, for example, the hundreds, if not thousands of instances of the same things appearing in trips. Machine elves? Singing objects into existence? Individual, isolated people keep coming up with these concepts independently. It's fascinating.
I would say that it doesn't really bother me, that it's not the science (or otherwise), but the effect, that concerns my interest. But that can't be true. The physics vs metaphysics determines what the trip is: Does it come from within you, or from outside? Does DMT really open you up to reflections of the 'end of the universe', or does it open you up to yourself? Or both? Or neither?
[I'm not inclined to argue either way yet, since my cat hasn't actually met with dimitri yet. Soon though, I shall report!]
In a solipsist universe, which is all I can truly believe in, I would argue that the difference between the two does not matter. As long as one learns from the experience, evaluates it, and integrates it, DMT is explained to you as well as is possible to be. The point, I feel, of exploring what DMT is, is not to understand it, but to lead to more, more interesting, questions, which can benefit your life in a way so great it is unquantifiable. The power to change how the mind thinks in its own essence, is not one to be taken lightly or without due thought.

A second ponderance:
The universe, is like a giant fractal. Nay, the universe _is_ a giant fractal.
[But Skyblaze, what is a fractal?
A fractal is an irregular geometric object that is self-similar to its substructure at any level of refinement. In layman's terms, a shape containing an infinite number of shapes similar to it]
This occurred to me whilst absent-mindedly staring at a tree. A trunk, contains branches, contains sub-branches, contains twigs, contains leaves, contains fibres, contains cells... etc.
The fundamental essence of the universe is the same throughout, and yet, the universe is so rich, and so different, with so many recursive patterns and obscure links, and most of all, intense beauty. Much like the start of the universe is a kind of singularity - an impossibility (trying to comprehend that on psychedelics is mind-blowing, almost literally), as are the boundaries, and quite possibly the base of it. Much like a fractal, an object of infinite information, complexity and beauty, can be generated from just a few lines, I would argue the universe could be expressed in the form of a fractal.
I'll see if I can draw a diagram, post it later.

Right, I think I've rambled enough. I'll just post a quick bio or some such, and hopefully give you lot something to talk about! Or at least think about.
I'm still learning from life. I intend to for as long as I live.
I intend to live for as long as I enjoy life.
The question of does life have meaning does not matter to me. Philosophers can argue away, but I feel pain and joy, and I see no reason to ignore these.
I am an incredibly deep thinker.
I try to be a 'good' person. I would suffer for a complete stranger.
My curiosity is my downfall, and my blessing. I study everything in great detail before deciding to attempt it.
I like squirrels.
I do not believe in consumerism or control of life. Libertarianism is the way forward.
If I do not like something, I say so. Tolerance encourages. That said, this is no excuse to be rude or unbecoming. Manners cost nothing.
I am open minded.
I am atheist. I have no problem with the idea of creationism, but it simply creates more problems. That, and I dislike the idea of constantly being at the mercy of something intangible. Believing it would do nothing other than cause me misery.
This is very probably not an accurate representation of me; I change depending on tiredness. That said, one can never give a representation of one's whole self anyway.

This world is a fantastic place. Try everything worth trying before you leave it.

Thankyou for your time.

 

[gibran2]

I too like squirrels.

Welcome.

 

[cellux]

Much like a fractal, an object of infinite information, complexity and beauty, can be generated from just a few lines, I would argue the universe could be expressed in the form of a fractal.

Do you think that the universe can be reduced to its "generator expression", so to speak, similarly to how the infinite variety of the Mandelbrot set can be reduced to the recurrence relation z:=z^2+c?

In other words, do you believe that there is a Grand Unified Theory in physics?

In yet another words, do you think that the Many can be explained in "terms" of the One?

Are you sure you are an atheist?

 

[Virola78]

..In yet another words, do you think that the Many can be explained in "terms" of the One?.."

The Great Squirrel

 

[Skyblaze]

Much like a fractal, an object of infinite information, complexity and beauty, can be generated from just a few lines, I would argue the universe could be expressed in the form of a fractal.

Do you think that the universe can be reduced to its "generator expression", so to speak, similarly to how the infinite variety of the Mandelbrot set can be reduced to the recurrence relation z:=z^2+c?

In other words, do you believe that there is a Grand Unified Theory in physics?

In yet another words, do you think that the Many can be explained in "terms" of the One?

Are you sure you are an atheist?

Physics is a model of explaining how the universe progressed to where it is now, and how it shall continue to progress. This model may not be accurate, but so far, it seems to explain most nearly everything precisely. That, and it has the wonderful ability of being adaptable.
Not to turn this into a heated science/religion argument, I feel that religion is the 'precursor' (so to speak... I am aware of the Church's suppression of science, past and present), to science. Religion attempted to explain the universe, yet got proven wrong.
So, as regards am I atheist, then yes. Yes I am. I am just perfectly open to the fact I might be wrong. Physics may be disproven next week, and some new model may take its place. Indeed, this is kind of happening with the newtonian->einsteinian->quantum models. However, the beauty of science as opposed to religion, is that the axioms underlying it can be adapted with discoveries, as opposed to religion, which is far too rigid (conventionally, at least. Religion is a wide term, and there are a few which I appreciate).
I cannot say whether there is a Unified Theory without knowing more about the universe. Chaos produces order spontaneously, but this order may still contain fragments of chaos, which may well be unnoticable. A question from that - if something is intangible, does that mean it cannot have effects?

 

[cellux]

However, the beauty of science as opposed to religion, is that the axioms underlying it can be adapted with discoveries, as opposed to religion, which is far too rigid (conventionally, at least).

Oh, I see where you are coming from. Yes, that kind of religion is really far too rigid. What I was trying to refer to is a kind of "cosmic religion", that covers all aspects of our existence which cannot be counted for with the scientific method. Namely, those experiences which only happen when the subject and the object merges into one.

 

[Skyblaze]

Ah, yes, I see where you're coming from now.
No, I see that more as a kind of galactic 'work in progress' box. :d

Damn I am in an abstractive mood right now.

Side note: SWIM's mhrb's arrived! :d :d Now he just needs to shout at amazon for not delivering his slaked lime. Seriously, it got dispatched for SWIM's house on 1st Jan, and it still isn't there.

 

[gibran2]

...Not to turn this into a heated science/religion argument, I feel that religion is the 'precursor' (so to speak... I am aware of the Church's suppression of science, past and present), to science. Religion attempted to explain the universe, yet got proven wrong.
So, as regards am I atheist, then yes. Yes I am. I am just perfectly open to the fact I might be wrong.
...

Your “precursor” supposition is not correct. Even the ancient Greeks drew a very distinct line between science and religion (maybe even more distinct than today). I’m over-generalizing a bit when I state this, but religion was never used or intended to explain the physical. Religion has always been concerned with the spirit, with the unseen.

It’s always interesting to hear viewpoints on such matters pre-DMT and then to follow up post-DMT. Depending on the nature and depth of your first few experiences, you may look at things differently very soon. One of my earliest realizations was that we human beings know very little (i.e. nothing) about how things really work.

 

[Skyblaze]

You make valid points, but I believe that overall religion was discovered/invented to explain the existance of.. well.. anything really. Understanding is what we humans strive for, and creationist ideology was around long before scientific understanding. Religion was used to provide purpose, and explain. Science is used primarily to explain and improve.
I admit, most definitely, you make a valid point in that one is not a precursor to the other, my wording was a bit imprecise there. Rather, one usurped the other. The point I was trying to make was, whilst I believe in science and not theism, spirituality is still important to me, from the perspective of understanding from many perspectives.
In other words, I'mma trying to say that I'm open to accepting I may be wrong, and that the mainstream views have been dissolved in the past - there is no reason why they may not in the future. Certainly, the potential starts of the universe are not confined primarily to creationism or big bang theory.

And I shall most definitely report back post-DMT. Could take a while though; I want to wait for the perfect moment, which could be anything up to a couple of months away. Or anything as close as next weekend.
Watch this space. :d

 

[cellux]

I believe that overall religion was discovered/invented to explain the existance of.. well.. anything really. Understanding is what we humans strive for, and creationist ideology was around long before scientific understanding. Religion was used to provide purpose, and explain. Science is used primarily to explain and improve.

Although I have no chance to prove this to you, I feel compelled to share my opinion on this matter.

True religion is always based on an inner intuition of truth, not rational thinking. In this regard it's like art. To put it in the same basket as science and to see it as a primitive way to provide purpose and explain our reality seems to be a grave misunderstanding to me. Religion in its purest form is not a practical thing, it's an attempt to pour the structure of the divine realm one feels and knows in one's heart into ideas and material forms on the levels of manifestation.

If someone has direct access to the fountain from which these ideas sprang forth, then one can experientially validate whether the forms of a given religion are just or not. Man's sense of justice works the same way, albeit on an incomparably less intense level. The usual argument which is brought up against this - that man's judgment is fallible - only holds when man's connection with the center is not alive or is corrupted in some way. And because that has been the state of humanity since the beginnings of human history, we had no other chance but to dispel the distorted religion which grew out from the confusion, and in its place, discover science.

For me, the triumph is not about science finally discovering what religion could not. The triumph will be when science discovers what religion was really about and reconnects us to our long lost heritage.

 

[Skyblaze]

True religion is always based on an inner intuition of truth, not rational thinking. In this regard it's like art.

Again, I fear this was a simple case of miscommunication. When I say 'religion', I mean orthodox, classical religions such as Christianity or Islam. This is about what I was expressing my opinion.

To put it in the same basket as science and to see it as a primitive way to provide purpose and explain our reality seems to be a grave misunderstanding to me. Religion in its purest form is not a practical thing, it's an attempt to pour the structure of the divine realm one feels and knows in one's heart into ideas and material forms on the levels of manifestation.

I would agree with you there, except I, personally, call that 'life'. The search, not to understand one's self, but to explore it. Religion in its purest form - a kind of cross between philosophy-esque thinking and primal knowledge, is something nobody should deny. There is so much understanding, trapped out of reach of the physical realms in which we normally exist (or so I've heard).

If someone has direct access to the fountain from which these ideas sprang forth, then one can experientially validate whether the forms of a given religion are just or not. Man's sense of justice works the same way, albeit on an incomparably less intense level. The usual argument which is brought up against this - that man's judgment is fallible - only holds when man's connection with the center is not alive or is corrupted in some way. And because that has been the state of humanity since the beginnings of human history, we had no other chance but to dispel the distorted religion which grew out from the confusion, and in its place, discover science.

In my pre-DMT mind, it's all about models of the universe, and providing the best quality of life, and the most just system possible, as possible. As humans, from what I observe, we strive to find out how we came to exist, we strive to continue to exist, and we strive to exist well. Religion/Science fufill the first curiosity only anecdotally - we are told something, which a) could be possible (in the case of orthodox religion), or b) is observed to hold true (in the case of science). However, phychedelics actually put you in contact with this fountain which you mention, which is something which works both anecdotally, and experiencially. 'True religion', I would argue, is all about something which you can feel to be true, as opposed to judging it with scientific dispassion. Science, however, cannot be dismissed, as it fills the second and third points I make - prolonging life, and improving life. For a healthy mindset, I feel the two to be important, which is why I am an open-minded atheist.
As I said, psychadelics, if they do put you in contact with this fountain (and I have no reason to believe they don't), fill the first point completely, and many more. They provide knowledge and understanding from within us, which is exactly what we want and need, and I would waver, is exactly why SWIM and SWIY have different opinions on the matter. SWIM has yet to venture into the realms of enlightenment. Soon, though...

For me, the triumph is not about science finally discovering what religion could not. The triumph will be when science discovers what religion was really about and reconnects us to our long lost heritage.

In my opinion, the two cannot co-operate, because the instant they do, they cease to work. A scientist cannot work on science if his faith in it has been shattered, and a psychonaut cannot venture to the levels they could otherwise reach without letting go of their firm anchor of science. As with everything, I would argue that a balance is needed.

 

[Skyblaze]

I reckon you're talking about spirituality, and I'm talking about orthodox religion.
Spirituality, I agree with you entirely. There are things that science has not, and probably never will, explain. Orthodox religion, however, as far as I can see, is, as an entity, a destructive influence on both in many occasions.

 

[cellux]

Again, I fear this was a simple case of miscommunication. When I say 'religion', I mean orthodox, classical religions such as Christianity or Islam.

Well, this is a snakepit, but I can't help it: I'm not so sure that we can draw this line so easily (between "clean" and acceptable spirituality on one hand and orthodox, classical religions on the other). For me, Christianity seems like a very deep, truthful and spiritual religion. But as soon as you want to study and follow it with the mind - and only the mind - it becomes a source of confusion and a device of slavery. Without that direct connection to the Other, all religions become a kind of idolatry - praising the form instead of that which it was meant to represent. Therefore it is better to handle them as historical artifacts - while secretly acknowledging the source which they refer to.

I would agree with you there, except I, personally, call that 'life'.

If we lived in truth, then our entire life would be our religion. I don't know if we still needed science in this "new world", though. I feel that science is something that was created to fill in a lack.

Psychadelics, if they do put you in contact with this fountain (and I have no reason to believe they don't), fill the first point completely, and many more. They provide knowledge and understanding from within us, which is exactly what we want and need, and I would waver, is exactly why SWIM and SWIY have different opinions on the matter. SWIM has yet to venture into the realms of enlightenment.

I think that the title of your thread - "The Most Elegant Answer is Always More Questions" - perfectly fits what you would get from the psychedelic experience. One of my favorite participants on this forum is also an atheist, and he became an atheist because of his psychedelic experiences. Here is what he wrote recently:

This is the thing that scares me about psychedelic drugs, and what probably keeps them illegal: they cause people have beliefs that are so strong that they will not try to think critically about them.

For me, this is one of the deepest questions regarding psychedelics: how (and why) to keep a distance to something that is deeply felt to be a "reality-confirming experience", how to separate the wheat from the chaff, what is the nature of "Absolute Truth" and how can we avoid the pitfalls resulting from "finding it".

 

[Skyblaze]

There exist many paths to many truths. I would argue that, with many truths existing, the probability of an Absolute Truth is small.
Personally, I'm rather nihilist in life - I strive to understand it, myself, and to better the two, but feel that there is no fixed purpose, or 'win' or 'lose'. We have no reason to exist, and so, must create our own. Your own purpose in life influences what you do with it, which in turn, influence your self-assigned purpose. Psychedelics, I feel, is a way to explore your life from another perspective, to change it, to change you (for better or worse, if that actually means anything), and to unlock what you otherwise do not have to power to find.

I will be interested to see how my opinions change over the near future.

 

[gibran2]

There exist many paths to many truths. I would argue that, with many truths existing, the probability of an Absolute Truth is small.
Personally, I'm rather nihilist in life - I strive to understand it, myself, and to better the two, but feel that there is no fixed purpose, or 'win' or 'lose'. We have no reason to exist, and so, must create our own. Your own purpose in life influences what you do with it, which in turn, influence your self-assigned purpose. Psychedelics, I feel, is a way to explore your life from another perspective, to change it, to change you (for better or worse, if that actually means anything), and to unlock what you otherwise do not have to power to find.

I will be interested to see how my opinions change over the near future.

Prior to DMT, I had a similar view: Any “purpose” to life is that which we create for ourselves. I believed that there was no “higher” purpose or “unseen” purpose.

Since DMT, those beliefs have changed quite a bit. Now I’m very much convinced that there is nothing without purpose – there is deep purpose in everything that happens. From the horrific, to the beautiful, to the mundane, everything is filled with purpose – purpose that is mostly hidden from us, and mostly incomprehensible.

 

[Skyblaze]

SWIM's extracting now
Q21Q21's vinegar/lime tek with naphtha.

 

[Skyblaze]

Well, as SWIM hoped, Dimitri has raised many more questions, and answered none.

SWIM can't really comment on how his opinion, philosophies, etc. have changed, as he isn't really sure yet. Integration takes a _long_ time.
SWIM is definitely changed though, and definitely for the 'better'.

I'll post again when SWIM's more sure of his experiences (which are bloody hard to remember, he wants me to add).

If you want to ask SWIM any questions about his experiences, that would almost certainly help.

 

[lacunae]

Well, as SWIM hoped, Dimitri has raised many more questions, and answered none.

SWIM can't really comment on how his opinion, philosophies, etc. have changed, as he isn't really sure yet. Integration takes a _long_ time.
SWIM is definitely changed though, and definitely for the 'better'.

I'll post again when SWIM's more sure of his experiences (which are bloody hard to remember, he wants me to add).

If you want to ask SWIM any questions about his experiences, that would almost certainly help.

Yeah, DMT seems to have a penchant for doing that :lol:

I'm basically in a similar place as you regarding my last experience, to the extent that it's nearly impossible for me to reintegrate. Absolutely scared me shitless, though - I was convinced that I had gone insane and had entered a perma-trip...not to mention the little shadow men mocking me and dancing around my body, which lay immobilized amid a white background with black surface fractals.

If anything, I now foster a much greater appreciation for my "sobriety".

Questions for stimulation:
- Any predominant colors? Distinct patterns? Sounds?
- Say the first thing - really, the very first thing - that comes to your mind when you actively recall the trip.

edit:
Perhaps it is because I am sleep deprived and thinking strangely, but I just had an extremely vivid flashback of the trip. Up until this point, I was only able to remember the fractal patterns and the shadow figures, but I just remembered something completely different! I can't really articulate the image to my liking, but they are lanky/clownish/elvish-like beings bathed in this baby-neon blue...

 

[Skyblaze]

Predominant colour - blue, definitely.
Distinct patterns - I'll see if SWIM can sketch anything out, or find something similar for breakthrough. VERY strong open-eye visuals however, almost like seeing the multiverse - everything is overlayed with such beautiful patterns, which don't change when you blink, or turn away and back again.
The breakthrough patterns... were like... horizontal lines, stretching to infinity, getting closer and closer. Attached is a small, similar kind of thing, sketch.
Sounds - This is a strange area for SWIM. This one time the phrase "Bagandi Violation" or something akin to that was resonating through SWIM's mind the whole come-up. Whilst in hyperspace, there was a very particular music through the whole experience, that SWIM can't recall. It was... calm, shamanic, and almost fiercely natural.

A side note, the first breakthrough, SWIM had his eyes open for the come-up. Everything split into... a kind of recursive symmetry. Things similar to Aborigonal Totem Poles also kept appearing.

First thing that comes to mind - a cross between alien and beautiful. and that isn't alien as in UFO kinda alien. Alien as in... undescribable with our languages. Unthinkable with our normal minds.
It all makes sense, in the most nonsensicle way possible.

SWIM's had a few breakthrough experiences, all of which were completely neutral. Nothing prodominantly positive, or predominantly negative, save the sense of euphoria afterwards.

SWIM's thoughts are stiff difficult to sort about what he remembers thinking through the experience. SWIM feels my signature, however, is more accurate than previously anticipated.

 

[Skyblaze]

Definitely, -Definitely- a life-changing experience. SWIM feels like a much calmed, collected, wise, open and balanced person. It's taken much of the Western stubbornness out of SWIM's life, and that was only with ~1g, a long time ago. SWIM's taken integration seriously.
Next up is to try an Iboga experience...