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The Paradoxicals... a strange phenomenon when in "hyperspaces"

necromanteum

necromanteum

Esteemed member
Does anyone get into this headspace where thoughts began to have this strange quality to them where it's sort of echoey and almost paroxysmal but if a paroxysmal thoughtform were sustained in almost collapsing yet expanding way? Everything becomes this paradoxical bounding like, "there's never been a googleplex like this one before that we always were" or "you never thought this thing what you always knew" and so on and so forth. Often it can be gibberish too (I mean even more so than the examples I just gave), or words start to smear into each other kinda like the old "supercalifragilisticexpialidotious". And it has a very familiar quality to it. There's a synesthesia sensation to it like atoms smashing into each other, for lack of a better descriptor... as pretentious as that sounds.

It's not unlike parts of what I experienced in my introduction trip report too, as harrowing as that was. And the intuitive sense I get about it, as well as anecdotal evidence would suggest, is that it's a gateway process which seems to want to pull at the seams of my "sanity" until I'm left a raw nerve that is vulnerable to prodding of a magnitude not normaly found in my waking life (I don't want to get into a full blown tangent on the notion of parasitical foreign entities vs unresolved traumas made manifest which IMO are two perspectives that describe a larger phenomenon). If you've been there you probably know what I'm talking about. If so, what is your experience on or insight into this? Because if it is a gateway process to some weird psychosis feedback loop, it's definitely starting to piss me off.

Anyway, other than breathing or surrendering are there any strategies for dealing with this? I know the answer is probably "take a dose of alphacalm"... and with my most recent trip I did, in fact, just ride it out. Unfortunately the trip was very short-lived, and not super strong... so I don't feel it was a sufficient test of my ability to be hold steadfast in simple awareness. I will say that when I surrendered to this in the past, i.e. in my intro report, things just got worse for me. So I'm not sure fighting it OR surrendering are the answer here (surrender is basically me giving away my agency; a passive form of consent... so the idea is to transcend identifying w/ the experience in any way). And maybe the answer is a simple as that. It's a like a firewall or net setup to ensnare chaotic consciousness.

Thoughts?
 
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Id say its more about being present with the experience.
If you are surrendering to get rid of it, you are not really surrendering.

There are certain peculiarities in your choice of words, who wants to harvest you? what are you consenting to by surrendering?
Almost sounds like someone is trying to take advantage of you.

What pisses you off about all this?

And Im totally with you, surrendering might not be the answer and your agency is definitely important, yet all of that has to be somehow balanced with the acceptance for what is being given.
I dont know if the concept of "self-respect" might make sense to you here.
 
I have a few times been in a place where I repeatedly have two thoughts which are opposites. "It's important to find out the meaning" while simultaneously "But, the meaning is that there is no meaning." and "That's important." simultaneously with "It means nothing." Those aren't exactly thoughts I've had, but you get the concept.

I just think of it as the Yin and the Yang. Nothing is absolute, everything has two sides, and the thoughts show me this. There have been a couple which were insights which I brought back because they were important.

I also think that it's my ego hanging on. In a traditional psychedelic trip I quite often get to a place where I'm not thinking in words. Often get there on even lighter doses.
DMT doesn't give me a chance to ease into that. (I'm a bit nervous about an ultimate breakthrough for that reason. We'll see. I have more to learn here.)
I find it interesting that you mentioned surrender at the end of your post.
 
ShadedSelf said:
Id say its more about being present with the experience.
If you are surrendering to get rid of it, you are not really surrendering.

There are certain peculiarities in your choice of words, who wants to harvest you? what are you consenting to by surrendering?
Almost sounds like someone is trying to take advantage of you.

What pisses you off about all this?

And Im totally with you, surrendering might not be the answer and your agency is definitely important, yet all of that has to be somehow balanced with the acceptance for what is being given.
I dont know if the concept of "self-respect" might make sense to you here
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Sorry. I probably should edit that part out about my intuitive sense on the phenomenon and entities. BUT... it ties into my trip report in the introduction area where I experienced some really chaotic shit. It's a long read so I don't expect you to go there. But it also ties into what other people have written reports about encountering manipulative/sadistic intelligences in their trips.

So I want to say this experience is not just about contradictions or paradoxes. And maybe it's a unique headspace to me alone. But whenever I encounter this, it's very distinct and feels foreign and chaotic in some sense, but there's a specific flavor (and even order) to that chaos that's instantly recognizable. I admit the possibility it's just unconscious parts of my "being" made consciously accessible... so it's not in my locus of control and the closest thing I could approximate it to in materialist/normie terms would be schizophrenia. The issue is that this seems to be a gateway experience to even darker places.


Other have have touched upon it with their descriptions...

umpsquamadic peel + LSD - Erowid Exp - 'Umpsquamadic Peel' "I'm an umpsquamadic peel and if I ever know what I feel, then I know that I felt like this before and I always knew what I was timely for..." <-- this line in particular has that same flavor.

McKenna with his machine elves: Machine Elf there's a similar chaotic quality to the experience not unlike the first couple paragraphs in this wiki entry which describes the very first time i encountered the phenomenon in 1996 being warned off by some self dribbling basketballs which when I got past and then descended into the headspace I know encounter during my trips over the years since. what i describe in the original msg is how this descent in madness usually kicks off, the context may change but the "flavor" is always the same. like the back of my neck/base of my skull feels a little off and i get a sense of having entered into some dark old forest filled with strange spirits. if that makes any sense.


my original intro thread trip if you're interested (be prepared for 20 min read and some repetitious descriptions, if not no worries): an IV leap into DPT hyperspace (UPDATE: brahman propulsion//astral assault in the torture tetracube)


what pisses me off is i'd like to avoid this altogether. it's kept me away from psychedelics for the long periods of time. i'm not sure what integration i have to do, but it'd be nice if this wasn't so persistent. again my last trip was successful, but that was only a superficial layer of it. i KNOW the power this headspace has to lead me down into the abyss and it'd be nice to touch something just whimsical. im not even asking for understanding, unconditional love or compassion that all these other psychonauts seem to get in their experiences... just something novel and neutral would be welcomed. i'd even take a geometric light show at this point, as banal as that seems.
 
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There are countless stories and anecdotes about ego death, obliteration of self, death like experiences relating to psychedelics. It is indeed a scary proposition. I’ve been through a few myself. They are no fun. Yet many live to tell about it. Am I the same as I was before ? Mostly. Am I a changed person ? Yes, I think I am. These issues are why these types of substances are not everybody’s cup -o- tea.
There’s a book - “ Be Here Now” By Dr. Richard Alpert, AKA, Ram Das.
It’s kind of a “ picture trip book”. Now I’m not saying “go get the book, eat a couple grams of shrooms and check that shit out”, but it’s food for thought.

Edit: Apologies if this seems to not address your quandary at all.

Re: Malicious entities, demons, dragons,etc… These have been pestering humans since humans been humans. Seems to be tied up with our sub conscious, DNA, etc… I have to face the more mundane ones in my dreams nightly. Are they real ? When you’re there, shit seems pretty real. I subscribe to the theory that our brains are holographic projectors.
 
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brokedownpalace10 said:
I have a few times been in a place where I repeatedly have two thoughts which are opposites. "It's important to find out the meaning" while simultaneously "But, the meaning is that there is no meaning." and "That's important." simultaneously with "It means nothing." Those aren't exactly thoughts I've had, but you get the concept.

I just think of it as the Yin and the Yang. Nothing is absolute, everything has two sides, and the thoughts show me this. There have been a couple which were insights which I brought back because they were important.

I also think that it's my ego hanging on. In a traditional psychedelic trip I quite often get to a place where I'm not thinking in words. Often get there on even lighter doses.
DMT doesn't give me a chance to ease into that. (I'm a bit nervous about an ultimate breakthrough for that reason. We'll see. I have more to learn here.)
I find it interesting that you mentioned surrender at the end of your post.
Click to expand...
this seems to be the default response i get. just surrender bro, you're not in control. again, if you see my trip report "an IV leap into DPT hyperspace..." (linked in prev reply) it might make more sense, but i'm not asking you to commit to that. suffice to say my ego was worn down in a dialectic with the "unconscious" about my self-worth regarding redemption and trying to validate my existence only to be countered perfectly and I surrendered to the deconstruction dialogue (agreeing with it) only to then have the experience ramp up in its nightmarishness. so for me, the only thing I have left is to not identify with ANY of it... It's interesting on some level but having the same experience over and over again is, what do the say? the definition of insanity.

i agree with you on the ego part though.
 
necromanteum said:
Does anyone get into this headspace where thoughts began to have this strange quality to them where it's sort of echoey and almost paroxysmal but if a paroxysmal thoughtform were sustained in almost collapsing yet expanding way? Everything becomes this paradoxical bounding like, "there's never been a googleplex like this one before that we always were" or "you never thought this thing what you always knew" and so on and so forth. Often it can be gibberish too (I mean even more so than the examples I just gave), or words start to smear into each other kinda like the old "supercalifragilisticexpialidotious". And it has a very familiar quality to it. There's a synesthesia sensation to it like atoms smashing into each other, for lack of a better descriptor... as pretentious as that sounds.

It's not unlike parts of what I experienced in my introduction trip report too, as harrowing as that was. And the intuitive sense I get about it, as well as anecdotal evidence would suggest, is that it's a gateway process which seems to want to pull at the seams of my "sanity" until I'm left a raw nerve that is vulnerable to prodding of a magnitude not normaly found in my waking life (I don't want to get into a full blown tangent on the notion of parasitical foreign entities vs unresolved traumas made manifest which IMO are two perspectives that describe a larger phenomenon). If you've been there you probably know what I'm talking about. If so, what is your experience on or insight into this? Because if it is a gateway process to some weird psychosis feedback loop, it's definitely starting to piss me off.
Click to expand...
I experience this nearly every single time! Some times the gibberish has some sort of coherence. There's the idea that there's a dimension of reality which is completely bonkers... Where logic goes upside down and side ways, causality runs in all directions, everything is and isn't at the same time, Russel's paradox comes up quite frequently, the set which contains all sets contains itself, but it cannot contain itself, therefore everything... The funny thing is, I learned this in my class of introduction to logic, that anything and everything follows from a contradiction. The thought that everything exists because of some paradox comes up almost every single time. Another one that the entities really love is that there was a thought that wasn't supposed to be thought, but because there was a thought that wasn't supposed to be thought, there was a thought that wasn't supposed to be thought (meaning that it existed), and therefore, that thought was thought, and therefore God, and therefore everything.
Sometimes it gets annoying, but I've learned to sort of like it with time. The paradoxes themselves don't annoy me as much as the fact that I experience this thing so frequently and cannot just... Have some fun and go back home happy without getting my brain all twisted. There was another idea that the causality as we know it is merely an appearance, and the actual causality is a complete mess. Me playing a note on my instrument or uttering a word can be the cause of a baby being born somewhere, or someone dying, or even of God's coming into being and so on. It's interesting shit, even if it's annoying and irritating.
 
This video goes towards explaining a possible neurological basis for the bizarre, contradictory cognitive phenomena you've been describing:

Essentially, boundary dissolution under the influence of entheogenic substances occurs through simultaneous down-regulation of discriminatory processes and up-regulation of more holistic processes, leading to a flattening of the cognitive hierarchy. Pretty decent video overall (apart from the "let's do this" cringey cliché...) - it even includes references, and I've gone to the trouble of reformatting them without the Youtube redirect tracking nonsense here:

References

Dr. Christopher Timmermann’s Work

TOP (Transmodal Association Cortex Pole)

Hierarchical Organization of Human Cortical Networks in Health and Schizophrenia - PMC

The complex organization of connectivity in the human brain is incompletely understood. Recently, topological measures based on graph theory have provided a new approach to quantify large-scale cortical networks. These methods have been applied to ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Network controllability in transmodal cortex predicts positive psychosis spectrum symptoms - PMC

The psychosis spectrum is associated with structural dysconnectivity concentrated in transmodal cortex. However, understanding of this pathophysiology has been limited by an overreliance on examining direct inter-regional connectivity. Using Network ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
www.medrxiv.org

Network controllability in transmodal cortex predicts psychosis spectrum symptoms

Background The psychosis spectrum is associated with structural dysconnectivity concentrated in transmodal association cortex. However, understanding of this pathophysiology has been limited by an exclusive focus on the direct connections to a region. Using Network Control Theory, we measured...
www.medrxiv.org www.medrxiv.org

DMT Risks
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Ayahuasca, dimethyltryptamine, and psychosis: a systematic review of human studies

Ayahuasca is a hallucinogen brew traditionally used for ritual and therapeutic purposes in Northwestern Amazon. It is rich in the tryptamine hallucinogens dimethyltryptamine (DMT), which acts as a serotonin 5-HT[2A] agonist. This mechanism of action ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Miscellaneous
www.jneurosci.org

The Salience Network: A Neural System for Perceiving and Responding to Homeostatic Demands

The term “salience network” refers to a suite of brain regions whose cortical hubs are the anterior cingulate and ventral anterior insular (i.e., frontoinsular) cortices. This network, which also includes nodes in the amygdala, hypothalamus, ventral striatum, thalamus, and specific brainstem...
www.jneurosci.org www.jneurosci.org
www.hopkinsmedicine.org

Johns Hopkins Center for Psychedelic and Consciousness Research

The Johns Hopkins Center for Psychedelic and Consciousness Research is leading the way in exploring innovative treatments using psilocybin.
www.hopkinsmedicine.org www.hopkinsmedicine.org

Yale Program for Psychedelic Science

Psychedelic drugs and related molecules – psilocybin, MDMA, and the like – have profound effects on the mind and on the brain. They have been used in cultures
medicine.yale.edu medicine.yale.edu
 
OK, so a few more posts came in while I was fiddling with that last bit!
necromanteum said:
what pisses me off is i'd like to avoid this altogether. it's kept me away from psychedelics for the long periods of time. i'm not sure what integration i have to do, but it'd be nice if this wasn't so persistent. again my last trip was successful, but that was only a superficial layer of it. i KNOW the power this headspace has to lead me down into the abyss and it'd be nice to touch something just whimsical. im not even asking for understanding, unconditional love or compassion that all these other psychonauts seem to get in their experiences... just something novel and neutral would be welcomed. i'd even take a geometric light show at this point, as banal as that seems.
Click to expand...
Seems like this is almost your personal "wall"? Do you have any experience of things like clown or dadaist theatre? Would trying something like this help challenge some preconceptions, possibly hidden ones?
 
We interacted briefly on that thread, I came out feeling that all of this is somehow connected to your childhood. But maybe thats just my brain´s need to make sense of things.
Still, I wonder if on some level the question is, How do I stop them from torturing me if I supposedly have no control over it?
How do I go on if my suffering is not in my control? Everyone tells me to surrender but it actually makes its worse.
How do I take control without taking it then?
At least you sound angrier now.

To me, there seems to be this overarching theme of control and lack thereof in your words.

necromanteum said:
t'd be nice to touch something just whimsical. im not even asking for understanding, unconditional love or compassion that all these other psychonauts seem to get in their experiences... just something novel and neutral would be welcomed. i'd even take a geometric light show at this point, as banal as that seems.
Click to expand...
This is a bit confusing to me, Is this why you want to go down there?
There seems to be an endless supply of pain in hyperspace for you, sounds like a lot of risk for a light show, maybe Im not understanding what a whimsical, neutral and novel experience would mean to you.
 
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Back on the neurological correlates as referenced in the video, one thing that also sprang to mind was in light of how DMT produces simultaneous enhancement of brainwave frequencies associated with deep sleep, and with alertness. In that sense, the description of the nonsensical thoughts is highly reminiscent of hypnogogic and hypnopompic states, where on occasion I've had thoughts comprised of contradictory gibberish with a distinctly psychedelic flavour to them.
 
Transform said:
Back on the neurological correlates as referenced in the video, one thing that also sprang to mind was in light of how DMT produces simultaneous enhancement of brainwave frequencies associated with deep sleep, and with alertness. In that sense, the description of the nonsensical thoughts is highly reminiscent of hypnogogic and hypnopompic states, where on occasion I've had thoughts comprised of contradictory gibberish with a distinctly psychedelic flavour to them.
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That was a good watch.
My main focus for a while now has been treating insomnia. I've developed advanced sleep-wake phase disorder (ASWPD) in my old age. Psycho-lingo for what happens a lot as we age. We wake up too damn early and can't get back to sleep. Like 3-4 hours sleep for me. Deems, especially with Harmalas has helped me get in touch with my dreams to a small extent and thus be able to roll over and go back to sleep more better. Anyway, the DMT state certainly does have a lot in common with dreaming.
 
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MacElf_234 said:
There are countless stories and anecdotes about ego death, obliteration of self, death like experiences relating to psychedelics. It is indeed a scary proposition. I’ve been through a few myself. They are no fun. Yet many live to tell about it. Am I the same as I was before ? Mostly. Am I a changed person ? Yes, I think I am. These issues are why these types of substances are not everybody’s cup -o- tea.
There’s a book - “ Be Here Now” By Dr. Richard Alpert, AKA, Ram Das.
It’s kind of a “ picture trip book”. Now I’m not saying “go get the book, eat a couple grams of shrooms and check that shit out”, but it’s food for thought.

Edit: Apologies if this seems to not address your quandary at all.

Re: Malicious entities, demons, dragons,etc… These have been pestering humans since humans been humans. Seems to be tied up with our sub conscious, DNA, etc… I have to face the more mundane ones in my dreams nightly. Are they real ? When you’re there, shit seems pretty real. I subscribe to the theory that our brains are holographic projectors.
Click to expand...
No, I was happy that you responded with somewhere I could go/something I could check out that might have some insights or strategies for reframing my experiences in a way that would allow me to navigate the hyperspace with some grace. I didn't respond myself as I didn't have the time, I just liked the post so hopefully you'd be aware that I had read the reply and was appreciative. Yeah I'm with you for the most part.

As for the dreamspace, unless it's a sleep paralysis event, I'm not terrified in them despite whatever happens in there. My last sleep paralysis became like an alien abduction scenario. I can't explain why but my sleep self got the overwhelming impression that it was an alien abduction type scenario and that I had to will myself awake so my mind started to explode with fight or flight response and I basically awoke myself by trying to lift a body that felt 2 or 3x its normal weight. I was kinda upset like I had failed a test upon awaking. I def. need to find a lucid dreaming technique that works for me though.

Hyperspace is a lot different. Like transform said, it's absolutely like combining two brainwave states (dreaming and hyper focus) and these blend together in ways that make the barriers of my physicality feel paradoxically stronger and more permeable. More dreamy and yet somehow more hyper acute.
 
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Transform said:
OK, so a few more posts came in while I was fiddling with that last bit!

Seems like this is almost your personal "wall"? Do you have any experience of things like clown or dadaist theatre? Would trying something like this help challenge some preconceptions, possibly hidden ones?
Click to expand...
I'd agree with this, but no clown theatre. I don't have issues with clowns, in fact I was more fascinated by them as a child. Indeed even in school I'd get called a class clown, and often I'd only get attention in childhood if I was "fucking up" or being humorous. Some of my earliest art as a child was a combination of dada surrealism with biblical "evil" imagery (leviathan, diadems, pits) and an obsession with making mazes. Hard to say if I got influenced by first two Hellraiser films, or when I found them I was like whoa, this is my dark dreams turn manifest.

Brilliant previous post with the YT link and source material (watched the video, and skimmed some of the sources). I appreciate this work. Indeed this is basically what it's like. The delta and gamma waves. Resonates A LOT. I'm interested in seeing more on that line of empirical inquiry.
 
Dasein said:
I experience this nearly every single time! Some times the gibberish has some sort of coherence. There's the idea that there's a dimension of reality which is completely bonkers... Where logic goes upside down and side ways, causality runs in all directions, everything is and isn't at the same time, Russel's paradox comes up quite frequently, the set which contains all sets contains itself, but it cannot contain itself, therefore everything... The funny thing is, I learned this in my class of introduction to logic, that anything and everything follows from a contradiction. The thought that everything exists because of some paradox comes up almost every single time. Another one that the entities really love is that there was a thought that wasn't supposed to be thought, but because there was a thought that wasn't supposed to be thought, there was a thought that wasn't supposed to be thought (meaning that it existed), and therefore, that thought was thought, and therefore God, and therefore everything.
Sometimes it gets annoying, but I've learned to sort of like it with time. The paradoxes themselves don't annoy me as much as the fact that I experience this thing so frequently and cannot just... Have some fun and go back home happy without getting my brain all twisted. There was another idea that the causality as we know it is merely an appearance, and the actual causality is a complete mess. Me playing a note on my instrument or uttering a word can be the cause of a baby being born somewhere, or someone dying, or even of God's coming into being and so on. It's interesting shit, even if it's annoying and irritating.
Click to expand...
Awesome. Seriously. It's simultaneously reassuring and sad to read I'm not the only one who deals with this issue (well sad only if you're suffering from it. It feels good to know I'm not alone but never feel good to read about people going through some shit). Anyway, it seems like your analysis has taken it a few steps farther than my own, and for this I salute you. I had similar suspicions if I'm going to be honest, but they felt almost a step or so too far for my conscious mind to rationalize. I absolutely know the power of our thoughts, as I have felt their weight, their sting, their power to make manifest... and that understanding feels crushing to some degree because there's this also this chaotic miasma of chatter which people call "intrusive" thoughts that then become our responsibility.

All the common knowledge seems to suggest "don't identify with them", and yet we are responsible for our thoughts too. Or maybe I should say it's closer to suggest we are stewards of the thoughts we have. Sometimes it's easier to said than done to get past them quickly. As if they must be endured, or perhaps more importantly understood and introspected upon. But I'm not always up to this. So my latest strategy when not in the mood to introspect is, no kidding, to recognize them and try to move to something else and if/when that doesn't happen I feel some small twinge of negativity about it and then make the shape of a gun with my hand and point it at my forehead and fire. Maybe that's morbid and unhealthy, but it's like a proverbial acknowledgement of the mind's power over me and then my decision to silence it. I know repression is not the answer, at least not a one stop solution (it's just good FOR ME, in a pinch). But if it's something that persists later on, I will try to take some time to introspect and hopefully discover what impetus lies beneath for greater self-understanding and acceptance.

Thanks for your response though.
 
ShadedSelf said:
We interacted briefly on that thread, I came out feeling that all of this is somehow connected to your childhood. But maybe thats just my brain´s need to make sense of things.
Still, I wonder if on some level the question is, How do I stop them from torturing me if I supposedly have no control over it?
How do I go on if my suffering is not in my control? Everyone tells me to surrender but it actually makes its worse.
How do I take control without taking it then?
At least you sound angrier now.

To me, there seems to be this overarching theme of control and lack thereof in your words.


This is a bit confusing to me, Is this why you want to go down there?
There seems to be an endless supply of pain in hyperspace for you, sounds like a lot of risk for a light show, maybe Im not understanding what a whimsical, neutral and novel experience would mean to you.
Click to expand...
Sorry for not remembering you had replied in that thread. I actually think your assessments are spot on. I don't want to go down the abyss per se, but I do like to go into hyperspace and expand my awareness. What I'm saying is I don't go into my trips with any preconceived notions other than the state of consciousness will be different to the quality of my normal waking life. And yet, if all I am is darkness, then that's a little disconcerting... although I feel that's not all I am, it's definitely tiring to get that reflected back upon me whenever I do trip.

Again, this idea of control vs lack of concerns me deeply. The idea of life itself has prison like qualities for me, particularly the concept of the panopticon that resonates w/ and fascinates me. Like everything is observed. But the idea that we can't just leave or end things or decide to have a break if it becomes too much. Why would the only escape be death? Something for which we'd need to harm our physical selves and can't know the quality of. Like the idea of suicide being an affront to God in most religions. It smacks of a faustian bargain (memory wipe at birth) and reluctant / misinformed consent because we don't know the true reality of death, not only that but that it is an IRREVERSIBLE process and the very real notion that we may have been "deceived" our whole lives because things are different than we ever anticipated. This is a real mindfuck for me.

Moreover I don't think NDEs OR hyperspace or sleep paralysis/astral/dreamstate travels are the final word on this either. As an avid reader of NDEs, and as another individual has pointed out, why do they all seem to have the same EGO perspective narrative? It's as if the NDE is directly tied to their lives, which by definition can't be about their death... or at least doesn't correlate for me. Another aspect is that MIMICRY, CAMOUFLAGE and DECEPTION are RIFE in nature (and as people like to point out, as above so below). It seems amusing how they almost universally invoke this mantra for all the good about their existence but never the painful stuff.

The truth is it's hard not to see lovers of life, or existence in general as people with stockholm syndrome. If you know Benatar's asymmetrical argument for anti-natalism, you know where my line of thinking is. Even taking a breath and my body persisting requires some other organisms sacrifice or exploitation, it's like the SHIT is literally baked into the whole damn thing and it's difficult to reconcile why anything would even exist at all. For me, absolute mercy would be non-existence, or the absence of absolutely any/all sensation, conceptualization, doing, being. Everything else feels like a big time grift; conditional, fragmented, impositional, transgressive. So maybe my hyperspace is just a deep reflection on this perceptual bias I have. I know it's bleak, but I think it's hard to argue against... but maybe that's just baked into the nature of language itself. It makes me wish math was more my aptitude.
 
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I don't know about "owning" intrusive thoughts, but maybe this will offer you some additional insight: in a recent rue tea experience my anxiety-laden thoughts weighed heavily until I stepped back from them somehow and saw them take the form of something between a swarm of bees and a cloud of dust or dry leaves in the wind. Now these may have been apparently coherent, and on some level legitimate, concerns but on the other hand they were none of them actually real and therefore might as well have been gibberish! Somehow this has been one of my most important lessons from recent experiences, showed me a lot about being centred.
 
necromanteum said:
So maybe my hyperspace is just a deep reflection on this. I know it's bleak, but I think it's hard to argue against (but maybe that's just baked into the nature of language itself.... makes me wish math was more my forte).
Click to expand...
Just this last bit reminds me of an ayahuasca experience in which I was faced with an initially terrifying invasion of transdimensional interstellar linguistic isopods and there was this scenario where my friends and I were on a space station where we needed to keep these critters at bay while assessing their intentions. The problem was they inhabited linguistic thought so I bootstrapped myself a crash course in alinguistic cognition and telepathy of pure meaning. It's like there's a semantic cognitive substrate and language sits atop that, manifesting somewhat like the shadows in Plato's cave.

Changing cognitive habits through conscious linguistic choices appears to function as a fairly effective tool in self-development - when one can be assured of what those changes and choices ought to be. The keyword(!) that keeps nagging at me here is - "meditative".
 
necromanteum said:
Sorry for not remembering you had replied in that thread. I actually think your assessments are spot on. I don't want to go down the abyss per se, but I do like to go into hyperspace and expand my awareness. What I'm saying is I don't go into my trips with any preconceived notions other than the state of consciousness will be different to the quality of my normal waking life. And yet, if all I am is darkness, then that's a little disconcerting... although I feel that's not all I am, it's definitely tiring to get that reflected back upon me whenever I do trip.

Again, this idea of control vs lack of concerns me deeply. The idea of life itself has prison like qualities for me, particularly the concept of the panopticon that resonates w/ and fascinates me. Like everything is observed. But the idea that we can't just leave or end things or decide to have a break if it becomes too much. Why would the only escape be death? Something for which we'd need to harm our physical selves and can't know the quality of. Like the idea of suicide being an affront to God in most religions. It smacks of a faustian bargain (memory wipe at birth) and reluctant / misinformed consent because we don't know the true reality of death, not only that but that it is an IRREVERSIBLE process and the very real notion that we may have been "deceived" our whole lives because things are different than we ever anticipated. This is a real mindfuck for me.

Moreover I don't think NDEs OR hyperspace or sleep paralysis/astral/dreamstate travels are the final word on this either. As an avid reader of NDEs, and as another individual has pointed out, why do they all seem to have the same EGO perspective narrative? It's as if the NDE is directly tied to their lives, which by definition can't be about their death... or at least doesn't correlate for me. Another aspect is that MIMICRY, CAMOUFLAGE and DECEPTION are RIFE in nature (and as people like to point out, as above so below). It seems amusing how they almost universally invoke this mantra for all the good about their existence but never the painful stuff.

The truth is it's hard not to see lovers of life, or existence in general as people with stockholm syndrome. If you know Benatar's asymmetrical argument for anti-natalism, you know where my line of thinking is. Even taking a breath and my body persisting requires some other organisms sacrifice or exploitation, it's like the SHIT is literally baked into the whole damn thing and it's difficult to reconcile why anything would even exist at all. For me, absolute mercy would be non-existence, or the absence of absolutely any/all sensation, conceptualization, doing, being. Everything else feels like a big time grift; conditional, fragmented, impositional, transgressive. So maybe my hyperspace is just a deep reflection on this perceptual bias I have. I know it's bleak, but I think it's hard to argue against... but maybe that's just baked into the nature of language itself. It makes me wish math was more my aptitude.
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I definitely hear ya….
 
You can get used to it though, and learn to like it. You can befriend the annoying entities, and with time, the gibberish becomes a bit more coherent. But one thing you have to keep in mind, you cannot control the experience! You have to approach this space with an open heart and empty hands, take whatever's given to you, even if it's a finger up the ass, and be grateful for it. And if you cannot make sense of it all or see the point, be patient! Things take time to unravel.
 
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