The Paradoxicals... a strange phenomenon when in "hyperspaces"

[ShadedSelf]

So, sounds like your need for control is for stopping things from happening, more than anything else.

Do you have an idea of when or why the concept of (lack of) control first became a concern for you?
When did you realize that life has prison like qualities to it?

 

[necromanteum]

So, sounds like your need for control is for stopping things from happening, more than anything else.

Do you have an idea of when or why the concept of (lack of) control first became a concern for you?
When did you realize that life has prison like qualities to it?

EDIT: if you meant in regard to my trips specifically (SORRY!) then I guess I would agree with you to a certain extent. I'm going into my trips with the only expectation that the experience is supposed to be interrupting my normal mental loops so that I can experience something novel, not just draw me further into them and distort them in ways that are grotesque and full of pain. that didn't exactly happen in my last trip as I said, but it felt similar to when I was at the precipice of the abyss in past experiences. The only reason I would continue to persist in taking psychs knowing this may be my ONLY experience would be to test myself as I would like to be capable of enduring in my vulnerability... to not give into terror. But it can also be true at the same time that I would like if my psych experiences didn't always seem like they merely served the purpose of challenging my resolve or perceptions in the most harrowing ways possible. I don't know if that speaks specifically to my issue with control or not. I feel like if it did then I would be demonizing psychs outright and vow never to take them again as my need for control would dictate ego-preservation as opposed to curiosity. Again, I'm looking for novelty AND the potential of expanding my awareness. Perhaps what I could use is some more experienced guidance or other psychs to work with. IJDK ... [original post below].


I'm not sure what you mean by stopping things from happening. Nor am I sure I get in what context you're using the word "control". The context I am using it is purely in regard to my own experience (or more importantly my corporeal form). We have limited top-down executive control over certain aspects of motor function, directed attention and then a very limited bandwidth for abstract cognition... and that's basically it. Everything we can do to influence the experience comes out of those, and the limited access to information from existence gathered from the painstakingly slow interplay of collective experience and knowledge. It's difficult to see how we're hardly anything more than barely domesticated pets, or toddlers, in some larger cosmic game.

The length of time we are bound to a corporeal form that has all kinds of unconscious dimensions to it, as well as the chaotic , impositional/transgressive quality of nature, of duality... is also a difficult pill to swallow at times. I'm glad it ends. Full stop. But then there's this big consciousness filter problem that we can't sufficiently address ATM. Some seem to think there will be a death current not unlike our dreamstate, and that all one has to do is learn to be lucid so one can direct themselves at the time of death. But this skirts around the very real problem that lucid dreaming is function of strategies learned and exercised WITH a corporeal form that you won't have access to (or at least becomes WHOLLY unconscious) at the time of your demise. But that could be a fundamental misunderstanding of the death state, and that lack of understanding is a major problem for organizing our lives towards some higher/spiritual purpose that has any real consequence or purpose to it (which IMO has implications on the nature of existence itself).

Anyway, that doesn't mean there also aren't things to appreciate/be appreciative of here on Earth.... but again Benatar's asymmetrical argument spells out the disparity between what's pleasurable and what's sufferable. When you then tack on the responsibility to act in a way which addresses the philosophical implication of this asymmetry, the paradoxical stupidity of responsibility vs our overwhelming lack of agency becomes a glaringly apparent thorn in the side of most people's spiritual gestalt, at least from my view on things. And that's not even addressing the potential exponentiality of consequences/costs actions can have on other beings here on Earth, given what little control and foresight we even possess, and... well, it's all a little too absurd.

There's so much to wax on about this topic and it's basically all been said before by people much more intelligent and compassionate than me. I felt this all at an early age living with the people I call my family as child, even if I couldn't articulate it. I don't want to get into details because I'm not looking for sympathy, but simply acknowledging the larger tapestry of my life and how that helps at least give me perspective in my lack of control.

 

[Jan e Kharabat]

The length of time we are bound to a corporeal form that has all kinds of unconscious dimensions to it, as well as the chaotic , impositional/transgressive quality of nature, of duality... is also a difficult pill to swallow at times. I'm glad it ends. Full stop. But then there's this big consciousness filter problem that we can't sufficiently address ATM. Some seem to think there will be a death current not unlike our dreamstate, and that all one has to do is learn to be lucid so one can direct themselves at the time of death. But this skirts around the very real problem that lucid dreaming is function of strategies learned and exercised WITH a corporeal form that you won't have access to (or at least becomes WHOLLY unconscious) at the time of your demise. But that could be a fundamental misunderstanding of the death state, and that lack of understanding is a major problem for organizing our lives towards some higher/spiritual purpose that has any real consequence or purpose to it (which IMO has implications on the nature of existence itself).

Anyway, that doesn't mean there also aren't things to appreciate/be appreciative of here on Earth.... but again Benatar's asymmetrical argument spells out the disparity between what's pleasurable and what's sufferable. When you then tack on the responsibility to act in a way which addresses the philosophical implication of this asymmetry, the paradoxical stupidity of responsibility vs our overwhelming lack of agency becomes a glaringly apparent thorn in the side of most people's spiritual gestalt, at least from my view on things. And that's not even addressing the potential exponentiality of consequences/costs actions can have on other beings here on Earth, given what little control and foresight we even possess, and... well, it's all a little too absurd.

There's so much to wax on about this topic and it's basically all been said before by people much more intelligent and compassionate than me. I felt this all at an early age living with the people I call my family as child, even if I couldn't articulate it. I don't want to get into details because I'm not looking for sympathy, but simply acknowledging the larger tapestry of my life and how that helps at least give me perspective in my lack of control.

Ah, Benatar... I've been there! I spent a good amount of my depressed years quoting Schopenhauer and the likes... I would say that these arguments rest on a dichotomy of pleasure and pain which is... at least not universal, even if it is real for some people. We do not simply desire pleasure and an escape from pain. There are pleasures we run away from and pains we absolutely love. If you have ever been truly and madly in love, you will know what a torture it is, and yet... it is the most beautiful thing ever! to spend your days and nights constantly thinking about someone, while feeling stupid about it, experiencing the entire spectrum of human emotion, from gut wrenching anxiety and sadness to the extremes of joy and happiness, all within a single day.... its madness, and yet it is beautiful! What makes this existence worthwhile is the existence itself... life is what we truly like, and death is what we truly despise. Monotony is what kills us, and that monotony can be found in pleasure as well as in pain. And in the moments when you truly feel alive, you don't ask about the big purpose of it all... because the question itself is absurd.
The question of meaning and purpose comes from a certain place and a certain mindset. If you turn things around for yourself... it loses all its meaning! It is suffering what forces us to ask about the point of it all (and in some ways, perhaps bland happiness as well). There are ways to avoid the stupid and pointless kind of suffering, and there are ways to find the enjoyable kinds of suffering. Beauty can be found everywhere, in the good and the bad, in the pleasurable and the painful. Beauty makes it all worthwhile... when you experience something so beautiful that it leaves you speechless, thoughtless and struck with awe, you don't ask about the meaning and purpose! the experience suffices for itself.

 

[necromanteum]

Ah, Benatar... I've been there! I spent a good amount of my depressed years quoting Schopenhauer and the likes... I would say that these arguments rest on a dichotomy of pleasure and pain which is... at least not universal, even if it is real for some people. We do not simply desire pleasure and an escape from pain. There are pleasures we run away from and pains we absolutely love. If you have ever been truly and madly in love, you will know what a torture it is, and yet... it is the most beautiful thing ever! to spend your days and nights constantly thinking about someone, while feeling stupid about it, experiencing the entire spectrum of human emotion, from gut wrenching anxiety and sadness to the extremes of joy and happiness, all within a single day.... its madness, and yet it is beautiful! What makes this existence worthwhile is the existence itself... life is what we truly like, and death is what we truly despise. Monotony is what kills us, and that monotony can be found in pleasure as well as in pain. And in the moments when you truly feel alive, you don't ask about the big purpose of it all... because the question itself is absurd.
The question of meaning and purpose comes from a certain place and a certain mindset. If you turn things around for yourself... it loses all its meaning! It is suffering what forces us to ask about the point of it all (and in some ways, perhaps bland happiness as well). There are ways to avoid the stupid and pointless kind of suffering, and there are ways to find the enjoyable kinds of suffering. Beauty can be found everywhere, in the good and the bad, in the pleasurable and the painful. Beauty makes it all worthwhile... when you experience something so beautiful that it leaves you speechless, thoughtless and struck with awe, you don't ask about the meaning and purpose! the experience suffices for itself.

I'm not sure I follow your line of association from the asymmetry argument to depression.... nor would I agree with what I'm gathering is a thinly veiled implication of pessimism. I mean, this is an argument that can vary quickly get lost in the weeds of what is/has value, whether something is valuable in its own right vs within a context, what is meaning, etc. I will say it seems fairly universal that organisms from the moment of their conception are in a deficit state of some sort (where a means of sustenance is required) and when that organism does not have access to it, an experience of stress--or what could be called suffering--occurs. I don't want to say it's easy to romanticize about things like beauty or emotional attachment when all your basic needs are met either, but I could see the generalized argument being made from a perspective akin to Maslow's hierarchy. But of course ascetics have a say about this from a different perspective too, and the power of subtraction (or letting go of what's superfluous) as a functional means of returning to "source".

Anyway, it wasn't my intention to start some philosophical debate here. Nor was it to tell anyone how to feel or what to prioritize about their own lives. When I mention the responsibility with regard to Benatar, it wasn't to push an antinatalism agenda or support his conclusions, but instead to invoke the axiological asymmetry as it is fleshed out. I suppose one could argue it's also a personal ethos of mine from the basis that a temporal, corporeal existence is one which by its very nature is fragmentary/bounded/incomplete and therefore burdensome to varying degrees (dare I say even impositional... particularly as you can't get permission from someone who doesn't yet exist). That doesn't mean, "therefore, it's universally morally wrong for people to procreate". I am of the strong opinion that I am the sole arbiter of my soul (SOUL ARBITER LOL). But that doesn't necessarily negate the notion there may be a larger soul framework (bounding) with which a certain level of awareness is essentially equal to its level of agency, or operational limits if you will.

 

[MacElf_234]

Guess it’s all in what ya want to look at. No worries, though. Life goes fast. If you make it to old age you’ll slow down a bit. And from that perspective it’s like it went in the blink of an eye.
Best,

 

[PsychonautCX]

Have you tried using a DMT vape pen, starting your trip with your eyes closed? Then slowly taking hits (keeping your eyes closed) every few minutes to allow you to more easily maneuver?

I’ve used this method before to allow me to approach (I mean actually come toward things in my head) or even circumvent depending on my speed and body movements. The key is finding a good DMT juice, pen setting and hit timing to allow for extended controlled experiences.

That and of course you have to consider things like set, setting, (especially the amount of light, nearby audio (I dont mean just music. Even ambient noises and electrical hums can make a difference) not to mention things like neural divergence.

Just something to consider. I really hope that you find what you are looking for and are able to continue your pursuit and experiences.

I know what it’s like to get discouraged that you may never get to experience what others have. I haven’t had a good mushroom trip in a few years now. Every time I try it turns into depressing thought loops mixed with thoughts of ‘why bother’.
Keep your chin up and mix things up with your set and settings. Sometimes the most mundane of changes (such as sitting reclined vs laying down) can have a pretty huge impact, as well as how long you take to close your eyes after starting to trip. (The longer you wait the faster you are moving which can be catastrophic and propel you into places/situations/walls that you are ill equipped to deal with, especially in a place where you don’t know the rules and have less and less control the further you go.