Well, actually, this ofcourse is just personal opinion, but all trips i have had, weather from acid, shrooms or DMT, even my little self made mild and short lived trips are the exact same state of mind, but different sensations and types of visuals, but always to me it feels like the same state of mind.
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The Power of the Mind
- Thread starter 'Coatl
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'Coatl
Teotzlcoatl
It's not your body chemisty it's your mind!!!!
It's like the first time you get a friend high on cannabis and they say "I don't feel it"...
You can tell their eyes are red... they are acting goofy...
They just don't "understand" what a cannabis high is like.
You, Jorkest "understand" what phenethylamine feel like... thus your MIND is more sensitive... I SAY AGAIN! IT'S ALL IN YO' HEAD!!!
Burnt makes an interesting point. Certainly there's quite a good deal we don't yet understand about the mind, but there's no way to truly replicate the effects of any compound that the body is incapable of producing. There's certainly something important happening in these reports, but let's not pretend that the mind is capable of inducing a true LSD trip; there are other chemical mechanisms at work here--perhaps related to endogenous DMT.
'Coatl
Teotzlcoatl
I hope I don't offend anybody with my posts. Jorkest your a very inteligent person and I'm not saying YOU are wrong... I'm just saying your LOOKING at it wrong... I guess. Maybe I'm not even saying that... who knows?
What I'm trying to say here is that mystical experiences can be induced without drugs.
...and that a person who wishes to be devloped spiritually will explore the mind both with and without psychoactives, not one or the other!
What I'm trying to say here is that mystical experiences can be induced without drugs.
...and that a person who wishes to be devloped spiritually will explore the mind both with and without psychoactives, not one or the other!
It is absolutely the chemicals that are responsible for the effects. A placebo effect can happen however in people who know what they are doing it should not especially when a known high dose is concerned. People sell fake hits and crap all the time, many people realize that they were ripped off, yea some people think they are tripping but most people no its BS. You can not tell me that you can get to the same places one can on high dose DMT without drugs (maybe near death but not trying) no one has been able to accomplish this. Even people who have become efficient at meditation know that the effects of psychedelic are unique. The effects are different, just as all drugs have diff effects. I am not arguing which are better but just that they are unique experiences. I don't care what anyone says if you have done good drugs, you know that it is the chemicals. Not that the brain doesn't play an important role but it is the chemicals presence in the brain that allows the effects to occur. This is pharmacological fact. Also the placebo effect has a pharmacological basis. Endogenous opiates have been shown to be released, if antagonists are given placebo effect won't happen. It is a real phenomenon.
Voodoo?
Haitian voodoo uses a variety of psychoactive substances. I am not sure which voodoo you are speaking of.
There is no evidence of anyone every actually tripping in the same way as they would off of a chemical. It is all speculation, many people have tried to accomplish this through years of training and have not. There are techniques to induce trances, drumming, dancing... these however relay on producing endogenous active molecules however again the effects are very distinct from tripping on an administered tryptamine or phenethylamine. The states are different. Chemical states are different from natural states. There are many pharmacological reasons for this. Even with the same chemicals (endogneous DMT and extraogenous DMT) the effects would be different.
Shaman
First of all you don't know what the effects are that the shaman is getting. They use these plants to heal not to trip. Also there are genotypic differences in enzymes, receptors, plasma proteins, transport proteins... that may make certain populations hyper/hypo responsive to these substances. Additionaly the use of tobacco and other dietary components is known to alter MAO and other enzyme receptor levels. Notice how they still take the chemicals because they are aware that the chemical is a tool for allowing the mind to enter certain states. Without the tool you can't enter. You may be able to enter a different states but no the same state. Again you can speculate all you want but there is no evidence to suggest this is possible and plenty (all of pharmacology and religion) to suggest it is not.
Haitian voodoo uses a variety of psychoactive substances. I am not sure which voodoo you are speaking of.
There is no evidence of anyone every actually tripping in the same way as they would off of a chemical. It is all speculation, many people have tried to accomplish this through years of training and have not. There are techniques to induce trances, drumming, dancing... these however relay on producing endogenous active molecules however again the effects are very distinct from tripping on an administered tryptamine or phenethylamine. The states are different. Chemical states are different from natural states. There are many pharmacological reasons for this. Even with the same chemicals (endogneous DMT and extraogenous DMT) the effects would be different.
Shaman
First of all you don't know what the effects are that the shaman is getting. They use these plants to heal not to trip. Also there are genotypic differences in enzymes, receptors, plasma proteins, transport proteins... that may make certain populations hyper/hypo responsive to these substances. Additionaly the use of tobacco and other dietary components is known to alter MAO and other enzyme receptor levels. Notice how they still take the chemicals because they are aware that the chemical is a tool for allowing the mind to enter certain states. Without the tool you can't enter. You may be able to enter a different states but no the same state. Again you can speculate all you want but there is no evidence to suggest this is possible and plenty (all of pharmacology and religion) to suggest it is not.
Has SWIY used freebase DMT?
SWIM does not know how anyone who is sane could honestly say that they could get to the same states as 100mg DMT, without DMT. This is ridiculous there is absolutely 0 chance. Maybe SWIY has not had the same experiences as others. Diff people respond to these things differently, some people don't respond well at all and only show minimal subjective changes.
Also I am not saying you can not induce interesting states of mind without drugs but they are very very different than the states induced by drugs. Especially with the hallucinogens but with all drugs there may be similarities b/w a natural and chemical state but they are different. Even mice can distinguish b/w drugs and inactive placebos.
SWIM does not know how anyone who is sane could honestly say that they could get to the same states as 100mg DMT, without DMT. This is ridiculous there is absolutely 0 chance. Maybe SWIY has not had the same experiences as others. Diff people respond to these things differently, some people don't respond well at all and only show minimal subjective changes.
Also I am not saying you can not induce interesting states of mind without drugs but they are very very different than the states induced by drugs. Especially with the hallucinogens but with all drugs there may be similarities b/w a natural and chemical state but they are different. Even mice can distinguish b/w drugs and inactive placebos.
The mind is a plethora of chemical processes. Unique chemical processes yield different results. To pose the contrary would have to be purely faith-based, and empiricism and faith are mutually exclusive. If one wanted to believe that these endogenous experiences could ever emulate a synthetically induced experience, that belief would have to cease at the moment one sought out to prove it empirically unless it were in fact discovered that the body could synthesize these compounds. If there's anything psychoactives have taught SWIM, it's the chemical nature of perception.
Its definately possible to induce mystical experiences without drugs. But it is interesting to think that this is also a result of an endogenous chemical change set on by either dancing, music, fasting, meditation etc etc. I just don't think its possible to induce an lsd experience without lsd.
Well this is interesting..because SWIM has had THE MOST intense drug experience he has ever had...while dreaming..in his dream he took a hit of acid and then in the dream took an unknown drug...which was called 'batch'...SWIM has no idea what it was..this was while dreaming mind you...the 'batch' drug was snorted...after taking like one or two hits of 'acid' this resulted in just the craziest experience
he was spinning on his head like a top..except not perfectly straight up and down..it was like his feet were swinging around above his head..like something was dragging them into the air...around him were intense visuals...fractalized and colorful..the interesting part is that he was IN the hallucination..his whole body was with him the whole time...it was like he had physically entered this space...and he was aware of his body the whole time..being inside..
the next part was the most intense part..he was standing on the 'ground' with the world spinning end over end..extremely quickly..and he was looking up into the sky...but what he was looking at was more like a ceiling..because there was a dread locked dude standing on it...looking 'up' at SWIM...so they were looking at each other...both looking up..and this dude started communicating with SWIM..as they spun and spun...it was like an initiation..with information pouring into his mind..this went on for some time..btw..there were visuals racing everywhere...
so at the end of this..SWIM woke up in a bed..still in the dream..and then he woke up in real life..with this experience still clear in his mind..and his body buzzing like crazy..it was so damn nuts..and he was soooo excited about it...it was amazing...one of the most awesome experiences hes had...maybe just for the fact that it happened in his sleep...that was a genuine psychedelic experience while sleeping and it was just mind blowing...
obviously it was different than a DMT experience..but it was also similar in some ways..the intensity..the feeling of shooting around the universe..
one for the books..SWIM is hoping he will get another one some day...he had also been smoking DMT..and some bufotenine recently..so maybe these had primed his mind
another time some weird short dude with big eyes and a wide smile injected him with ketamine and dmt at the same time in a dream..it was like being at the dentist office..in the chair..and they just leaned SWIM back and pumped him full of this stuff and he sank down into hyperspace
so hes not sure if you would call these real DMT trips...but he was able to get to the same sort of places while in his dreams..with no chemicals taken and they have topped everything
he was spinning on his head like a top..except not perfectly straight up and down..it was like his feet were swinging around above his head..like something was dragging them into the air...around him were intense visuals...fractalized and colorful..the interesting part is that he was IN the hallucination..his whole body was with him the whole time...it was like he had physically entered this space...and he was aware of his body the whole time..being inside..
the next part was the most intense part..he was standing on the 'ground' with the world spinning end over end..extremely quickly..and he was looking up into the sky...but what he was looking at was more like a ceiling..because there was a dread locked dude standing on it...looking 'up' at SWIM...so they were looking at each other...both looking up..and this dude started communicating with SWIM..as they spun and spun...it was like an initiation..with information pouring into his mind..this went on for some time..btw..there were visuals racing everywhere...
so at the end of this..SWIM woke up in a bed..still in the dream..and then he woke up in real life..with this experience still clear in his mind..and his body buzzing like crazy..it was so damn nuts..and he was soooo excited about it...it was amazing...one of the most awesome experiences hes had...maybe just for the fact that it happened in his sleep...that was a genuine psychedelic experience while sleeping and it was just mind blowing...
obviously it was different than a DMT experience..but it was also similar in some ways..the intensity..the feeling of shooting around the universe..
one for the books..SWIM is hoping he will get another one some day...he had also been smoking DMT..and some bufotenine recently..so maybe these had primed his mind
another time some weird short dude with big eyes and a wide smile injected him with ketamine and dmt at the same time in a dream..it was like being at the dentist office..in the chair..and they just leaned SWIM back and pumped him full of this stuff and he sank down into hyperspace
so hes not sure if you would call these real DMT trips...but he was able to get to the same sort of places while in his dreams..with no chemicals taken and they have topped everything
Exactly. There are altered states that can be induced by a variety of strategies. Must cultures however if they have access to plants will use the plants. As this technique is very reliable and can be titrated. Certainly non drug means exist, although they also are essentially chemical as is our entire view of reality. But there is no way that one can get to the same level of intensity without the chemicals.
Even with endogenous DMT, or endogenous opiates, when the brain utilizes these chemicals the subjective effects are very different from when one takes an administered dose. This is due to the pharmacokinetics (absorption, distribution...., as well as the fact that with the administered drug presence in the body is not controlled and thus it acts on different sites which the endogenous chemicals do not. For example endogenous DMT is unlikely to interact with the 5-HT receptors but when administered it certainly does. Even if it were to just be released randomly (like a hormone which is unlikely) the effects would still be quite different. But there is no evidence to suggest DMT functions like this, it is not in our brains to make us trip at specific intervals in our life.
Even with endogenous DMT, or endogenous opiates, when the brain utilizes these chemicals the subjective effects are very different from when one takes an administered dose. This is due to the pharmacokinetics (absorption, distribution...., as well as the fact that with the administered drug presence in the body is not controlled and thus it acts on different sites which the endogenous chemicals do not. For example endogenous DMT is unlikely to interact with the 5-HT receptors but when administered it certainly does. Even if it were to just be released randomly (like a hormone which is unlikely) the effects would still be quite different. But there is no evidence to suggest DMT functions like this, it is not in our brains to make us trip at specific intervals in our life.
SWIM has also had experiences in his dream where he was tripping. While in some ways (visuals) they appeared accurate, it was still a dream and somethings were different (especially my state of mind). Dreams are themselves an altered state of consciousness. All your experiences in a dream are actively created by your brain, there is no sensory input. Thus your brian is able to recreate experiences. I doubt that someone who has never tripped could have a dream of this nature, there is no way. One needs the experience. It is defiantly fascinating and SWIM always enjoys such dreams, the visuals can be beautiful. This phenomenon is very different then actively tripping while you are awake, which is very likely impossible the very idea of flashbacks is sketchy in its self. These people may have has a mild pre existing psychosis that the drugs induced. ???
The effects can be similar to tripping because they are based on your experience (to an extent) but for SWIM they were not exactly accurate.
The effects can be similar to tripping because they are based on your experience (to an extent) but for SWIM they were not exactly accurate.