The qualitative differences from clandestine LSD productions - some questions on chemistry

[donfoolio]

So, we have two sides of approach, that science never get to really bring in harmony together (make me think of Jung and Pauli trying to find the ultimate explication for synchronicity and quantum physics) :

* Psychological - autosuggestion, set and setting , the colour of the pill, advertisement, energy transfer of the practicing chemist

* Physical - dosage, impurities, improper synthesis, natural or synthetic precursors, other compounds

I think that it is important to keep that in mind, to don't get lost in the discussion.

The first one ist a lot about empirical experience, and even if certain aspects can be quantified with trip reports, consecutive bioassaying and so on, it can never reach the sphere of objectivity. We all know this. It is still the most important factor to take into consideration since we are all just direct experienced beings.

The second aspect can be analysed by the means of chemistry and the account of practicing chemists who share their experiences. Here we can work on something: making TLC, HPLC and other approaches of analysis, looking in the existing literature of ongoing analysis done by harm reduction labs and historical research.

Couldn't we get some of the still living chemists, to only name the famous ones like Pickard, Nichols, Casey Hardison or Tim Scully (I still wait for his ultimate book on underground chemistry) to share their thoughts with us? Somebody for a contact?

Both aspects are important since they are the sides of the same coin, the microcosm and the macrocosm. But the approach to understand them cannot made be with the same methods of investigation.

 

[Quetzal7]

a lot of discussion of that page : Types of LSD ~ Difference between LSD-25, needlepoint, white fluff - The Psychedelic Experience - Shroomery Message Board
TLDR : if we take a scientific stance, in our current knowledge, there's no reason to beleive there's any difference beetween LSD batches, even "bad LSD" with impurity should be the same, as the impurities are not doing anything in the mg range.
If we take an empirical stance... well... we need more double blind experiences i guess? but most people will agree, there's better LSD than others ; it could be just all made up , biased ... but to discard the experience of a whole community of users is a bit extreme.

 

[modern]

CBD seems to modify THC by partially occupying the receptor. Minimal effects on it's own, but modifies THC considerably.

There is an entourage effect with many plants which is why I personally prefer teas over 'pure' extracts of compounds. However with chemistry I'd expect this to be a lesser issue unless there are unreacted compounds and iso- forms that remain from each step. I'd assume there is a purification step at the end and the amount of times done will increase purity at the cost of lost product? Even terpenes in weed modify thc. Pure compounds are interesting however sometimes leads to undesirable effects like PURE thc vs in mixture with cbd.

Even with other plants like psychotria vs pure d with cappi. There is something missing with pure extract vs with plant teas. The oils and other minor compounds do have an effect IME. IDK if true with Smoked or other forms of ingestion/application

I remember reading there are some lsd iso forms that are inactive but perhap modify receptors?

 

[dreamer042]

@dreamer042 does the book mention how frequently he came back to use the same color??? So intrigued to read this; clearly seems to indicate that something other than chemical make up (something non-physical) was influencing the experience.
Do we know what kind of coloring? I wonder if the side effects that we now know are produced by food coloring, were simply being enhanced by the LSD? I suppose that is a possibility as well.

It doesn't give details on the what kind of coloring was used, I assume just the standard grocery store food coloring available in the mid 1960's. All the colors utilized the same batch of material so it seems it was just self suggestion influencing people's experiences.

It just goes to show that the material is only part of the story and our expectations and beliefs have more influence than we give them credit for.

A lot of the old chemists believed that your intentions were crystallized into the structure of the sacrament and would come through in the experience. Lore has it that family chemists still pray over each and every batch.

 

[Transform]

Well, there is the very small possibility that a trace of azo dye could do something like affecting the proportion of LSD that gets metabolised to the strongly dopaminergic 13-OH-LSD (or whatever number it was). But yes, psychedelics are suggestibility-enhancers par excellence so that hypothesis most likely wins the fight with Occam's razor.

 

[donfoolio]

Some of you may know already these ones, but I came about them and there is some interesting information in it:

Erowid LSD (Acid) Vault: LSD Purity: Gospel and Heresy

Erowid LSD (Acid) Vault : LSD Purity

Myth Debunking and Storage: LSD Purity, by Earth and Fire Erowid

erowid.org

This is Casey William Hardisons response to my question

Dude! Subjective AF!

Nichol’s says enzymatic cascade at picomolar amounts!

And, there’s like 19 different spots that fluoresce under UV after coupling the carboxyllic to the amine! Don’t count them out of possible activity.

Picomolar, Dave said!

How crisp is your chroma fraction?

And, subjective!

I mean the vibes, man!

I hear Owsley sacrificed virgin hymen on the lab bench! Did that make that particular batch special?

I do not fucking know! But I bet she was tasty!

And, bless you for asking!

 

[BingoDingo]

Some of you may know already these ones, but I came about them and there is some interesting information in it:

Erowid LSD (Acid) Vault: LSD Purity: Gospel and Heresy

Erowid LSD (Acid) Vault : LSD Purity

Myth Debunking and Storage: LSD Purity, by Earth and Fire Erowid

erowid.org

This is Casey William Hardisons response to my question

Cheers to Casey. What a response

I would add my hat to the "there is a definite subjective difference in experience between batches/crystal varieties" camp. Whether this is due to difference in purity and how a higher purity hits/is absorbed by receptors, "inactive" isomers interacting with active isomers and becoming active in some way through an entourage effect, or simply the care and love with which the product has been created and handled (vibes/degradation/whatever) I make no claim to know. I can assure you though- needlepoint, white white family fluff, and eggshell all elicit a different experience and can be picked out of a lineup. To be fair, the needlepoint and white white fluff could be mistaken for one another, but when you have a lesser product such as eggshell- you know.

My theory is that although other isomers may appear "inactive" they can still bind to receptors, blocking the good good from getting where it needs to get to do the wheeeee thing and make your brain go brrrrrrrrrr. Thus a more purified and refined product makes brain go brrrrrrr more better.

Feel free to quote me for your academic journal.

 

[NeitherHere]

Pure LSD is orderless and tasteless. I call it "water". You should sincerely be questioning if you've been ripped off the first 20-30 minutes after the blotter goes in your mouth. There should be no taste what so ever. If it's real. Now, there's always a chance a step was missed, soneone was sloppy or even cheap, and there's always the insanely high possibility that you might receive a RC "look alike". I've only encountered fake LSD a few times and they were all from truly sketchy individuals. Once I found my person I knew they meant real business.

I stopped participating in LSD when that individual retired with a vow of silence to protect their source. But they did tell me they use to get it 10-20k intergalactic credits at a time and I'm inclined to believe them because even when the swat team raided their home they missed a pint jar full of crystal DMT. A literal lifetime of not multiple lifetimes worth.

"If it's bitter it's a spitter"

Remember... Water.

Purest lsd I have ever encountered

 

[Transform]

My theory is that although other isomers may appear "inactive" they can still bind to receptors, blocking the good good from getting where it needs to get to do the wheeeee thing and make your brain go brrrrrrrrrr. Thus a more purified and refined product makes brain go brrrrrrr more better.

This is still one of my favorite paragraphs ever to have appeared on the Nexus

Edit: That punchline really deserves quoting as well:

Feel free to quote me for your academic journal.

 

[newusername1]

My experiences with ALD-52 are simmilar. I find it has a very slow and gradual come up, compared to LSD-25. For the rest it is very simmilar to LSD, but i think the very gentle come up may have the psychological effect of making you enter the psychedelic space in a more relaxed state of mind.

 

[Transform]

My experiences with ALD-52 are simmilar. I find it has a very slow and gradual come up, compared to LSD-25. For the rest it is very simmilar to LSD, but i think the very gentle come up may have the psychological effect of making you enter the psychedelic space in a more relaxed state of mind.

Hmm, likely this slow come-up caught me out once with dosing the homologue, 1-P-ETH-LAD, to the extent of thinking (classic rookie-error-style), "Oh, this is all nice and manageable, I'll have another one!"
Yes, I was quite relaxed then the second tab kicked in

 

[dreamer042]

Pure LSD is orderless and tasteless. I call it "water". You should sincerely be questioning if you've been ripped off the first 20-30 minutes after the blotter goes in your mouth. There should be no taste what so ever. If it's real. Now, there's always a chance a step was missed, soneone was sloppy or even cheap, and there's always the insanely high possibility that you might receive a RC "look alike". I've only encountered fake LSD a few times and they were all from truly sketchy individuals. Once I found my person I knew they meant real business.

I stopped participating in LSD when that individual retired with a vow of silence to protect their source. But they did tell me they use to get it 10-20k intergalactic credits at a time and I'm inclined to believe them because even when the swat team raided their home they missed a pint jar full of crystal DMT. A literal lifetime of not multiple lifetimes worth.

"If it's bitter it's a spitter"

Remember... Water.

Purest lsd I have ever encountered

From PiHKAL Chapter 3: Burt

One periodically hears some lecturer holding forth on the subject of
psychedelic drugs, and you may hear him give voice to that old rubric that
LSD is an odorless, colorless and tasteless drug. Don't believe it. Odorless
yes, and colorless when completely pure, yes, but tasteless, no. It is slightly
bitter.

Here is the story behind that from the same chapter:

At about this time, I had need of a reference sample of psilocybin, so
again I called upon Sandoz for a gift. In a few days, Burt wandered into
the lab carrying a small double-ended vial that contained, in turn, a glass
ampule labeled, "Psilocybin, for experimental use, etc." My gram had
arrived. We fed it in varying amounts to the fish-algae-snails, but it did no
better than the LSD.
One morning, a couple of weeks later, I took a small, double-ended
vial to Burt in his analytical lab down the hall, and asked him to please
weigh out for me a small quantity of material into a separate container.
The actual amount was not important, a few milligrams; what was im-
portant was that I wanted the weight accurate to four places. He disap-
peared for a few minutes, then reappeared with the vial I had given him
and also a weighing container holding a small amount of an almost white
powder.
"Here is 3.032 milligrams, exactly," he said, adding, "And it's slightly
bitter."
"How do you know?" asked I.
"After I weighed out the psilocybin, there was a trace of dust on the
spatula, so I licked it off. Slightly bitter."
I asked him, "Did you read the label carefully?"
"It's the vial of psilocybin you just received, isn't it?" he asked, looking
at the funny-shaped tube still in his hand. He read the label. It said
Lysergide. He said, "Oh."
We spent the next several minutes trying to reconstruct just how much
LSD might have been on the end of the spatula, and decided that it was
probably not more than a few score micrograms. But a few score micro-
grams can be pretty effective, especially in a curious but conservative
analytical chemist who is totally drug naive.