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The threads in the Nursery rock!!

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Haha funny now the claims are everywhere in this forum! It is amazing how many people identify as shamans in this day and age...every second tripper I meet pretty much. James Kent is incredibly scathing about that issue. I am not so mean but I do think talking big robs us of our power. Better to claim small and do big. none of the 30-year deeply committed yoga and meditation practitioners and other extraordinary and wise elders and exemplary musical healers who have taught me much and given so much to so many people ever seem to make such claims....I do think there are many ways to make wisdom from psychedelics. Perhaps some new terminology for this kind of practice is needed, dare I suggest?
 
For what it's worth..there seems to be alot of people on this forum who do have TONS of experience working with these plants and have logged alot of time on that "other side"...just becasue someone claims to be something does not necessarily mean they are talking big..

Do you really think that traveling to some foreign country or living in the jungle ourside of the context of someones real life is what someone has to do to be a shaman? Personally I think that what would make you a shaman in THIS culture requires that you do it in a way that is relevant to this culture..which means doing it here..living it day to day. Alot of people here fit that category..and I am sure alot of people dont as well.

If you play soccer and call yourself a "soccer player", or have trekked a certain mountain range over and over and now lead groups and call yourself a "guide" is that talking big?
 
"Perhaps some new terminology for this kind of practice is needed, dare I suggest?"

shaman is the new terminology, actually. There are no traditional shamans anywhere in north or south america..there are currandero's, ayahuasqueros and heyoka's etc..

The word shaman comes from the siberian tradion..people like mercia eliade and michael harner took the word and made it into what is now the popular, culturally broad use of the term.

And most people that call themselves shamans that I have met IMO are full of shit..but there are alot of people here who do seem genuine in what they are doing.
 
fractal enchantment said:
For what it's worth..there seems to be alot of people on this forum who do have TONS of experience working with these plants and have logged alot of time on that "other side"...just becasue someone claims to be something does not necessarily mean they are talking big..

Do you really think that traveling to some foreign country or living in the jungle ourside of the context of someones real life is what someone has to do to be a shaman?

No no - I don't think there is not much point calling oneself a 'shaman' at all outside the cultural contexts in which that term has an agreed social meaning. Perhaps no such contexts actually exist at all....


Personally I think that what would make you a shaman in THIS culture requires that you do it in a way that is relevant to this culture..

To WHICH culture exactly? I thought this was a global forum and that it represented many cultures...?

If others in your cultural context agreed that you were a soccer player and validated your role as one socially then the claim to being a soccer player would be totally uncontroversial. If you define your 'cultural context' as the narrow circle of people who are your friends and agree with your worldview, and they agree that you are a shaman, then sure, knock yourself out. But don't be surprised if others outside that circle who you talk to smirk a little at the term, because it actually DOES NOT have and agreed social meaning for most people. I too have led others to take dmt, have fed them the mushrooms I grew or hunted, have had experiences that most people would never dream of and have let those experience touch me deeply. Does that make me a shaman? I think it just makes me someone who likes these kinds of drugs and likes to share them with friends and find meaning in them.
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Hey Fractal...Eliade is hardly new! I have found that term in early 20th century anthropological texts. I agree it has no 'traditional' meaning. I just don't think it has a coherent current one either!
 
One more thing, and then I shut up, promise.
This divergence of opinion is itself a product of the way psychedelic experience is insufficiently valued and understood across MANY cultures. I have met people who knew really a LOT about growing, making and taking these kinds of drugs, and I think those people are wonderful, invaluable and should be given much more credit for their knowledge than what they are often given. Using the term 'shaman' is I think part of an agenda that attempts to claim some status for that knowledge. And I wholeheartedly support that agenda. But the term 'shaman' sadly is just too pretentious to play that role.
 
Morphing Interstices said:
Hey Fractal...Eliade is hardly new! I have found that term in early 20th century anthropological texts. I agree it has no 'traditional' meaning. I just don't think it has a coherent current one either!
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He's not new in terms of western anthropology I know..I studied his work a bit in anthropology class in college..but in terms of how long shamanism has been around..his work and his terms are new.
 
really the word does not matter it's the work that defines the person..

I studied religous anthropology at school and alot of that was magical and animistic practices like "shamanism"..one of my anthropology classes was called magic and witchcraft and I studied many of these cultures..vodou in particular..

ALL cultures have these people..even ours..

These things spring up in any and every cultural situation it seems..why would we be any different?
 
Morphing Interstices said:
Yep, check it out....8) There is (correction WAS) no one claiming to be a shaman here and the average age actually seems (correction SEEMED) to be over 18! ;)
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the age referance is riddled with irony as I find this post a little childish and some may even find offensive.

Im certainly no shaman myself but would never blindly argue or question against anothers spiritual enlightenment or credentials.

the thread could be construed as a little provocative:(

if that was not your intention then my sincere apologies to you sir:d

lets play nice:d
 
In all honesty, my reply was just a playful retaliation.
Sometimes I am a shaman, sometimes I'm a musician, other times I'm a beast, while on other occasions I am absolutely nothing.
Every administrator, every healer, every roadman has a personality; Role
Individuality assembles the balanced whole.
I would estimate that ~2% of the entire world population falls into this category every so often in their life...
Some notice this, and become dedicated.

All the art, all the inspiration, all the love, all the help, all the wisdom,
and all the semantics
rolled up into a spliff
sprinkled with changelion
and burned, burned
burned

sweet dreams symphonious compilation of vibrating molecules...(Yes, U)
 
I am no 'sir'. I am no shaman. I am 5 different major roles (and a bunch of other minor ones) of which 'psychedelic explorer' is one. I cannot name the others as they are too distinctive and as a list of them would absolutely identify me since no one else i have ever met plays all these 5 bizarre roles. One of the other roles I play places me equally on the 'outside' of society as my psychedelic experience. Another is a source of 15-year long daily committed spiritual practice. The other 2 are socially validated but regarded as eccentric by most people. Two of my roles earn me money but one of those is in the 'outside' zone (some would say the 'dark' zone). Only a small handful of people in my life know all my 5 aspects. I am also someone's girlfriend but i don't really see that a 'role' and it crosses over into all my other ones [mega lucky me:d :d :d ]
Those of you who believe the word shaman means something would no doubt see me as not qualifying a) because I am a woman b) because I don't have enough credence in elves, gods or aliens c) because I am a nerdy intellectual a lot of the time d) because I don't use the term myself.
Correct?
Sorry to irritate or provoke. Irritation definitely NOT my intention. Provocation perhaps, but not of the non-constructive kind. I enjoy having my assumptions challenged and seeing how others' beliefs map out, often surprisingly. Dialogue is for learning and expanding our horizons, our perceptions of possibility. I feel enriched by this thread, even if i don't agree with everything said in it or 'won over' to anyone else's view. Nor am I hoping others will be won over to mine. I do though feel complexified in my own and inclined to rethink, pose different kinds of questions and refrain from judgement. And that is the effect i hope the dialogue will have on others. I never took my own judgement about the word 'shaman' very seriously, but i also DID want to have a meaningful conversation about its validity. Sometimes provocation is a good way to cut through the bullshit (mine as well) and ensure the pressure is on to say exactly what you mean - and that pressure is especially on the provoker.:oops:

One thing dMT really helped me to appreciate is that dichotomies are there to be broken down. They are useful tools...to be played with then discarded, fractured into a thousand pieces and blown to the wind where you can then marvel at the kaleidoscopic patterns they create, duplicating and replicating themselves, exploding and reforming thousands of times over in an endless succession of unfolding webs of meaning. [and here i really notice the lack of smiley face to represent a kind of epiphanous psychedelic wonderment and awe]

Shaman, not a shaman, he says he's a shaman, what does that mean to him? does shaman mean anything socially (as opposed to personally)?, can someone be a shaman if they don't believe in the term? does calling yourself a shaman make you one in the sense that it is afterall a kind of identification more than anything? is the term gendered? can someone's cat be a shaman? does the cat care? how old does something need to be before we recognise that is has a tradition behind it? Does 'juvenile' refer to the age of the participants or the childlike aliveness of their enthusiasm? These are the kinds of fun thoughts i have enjoyed from this thread:lol:
 
۩ said:
In all honesty, my reply was just a playful retaliation.
Sometimes I am a shaman, sometimes I'm a musician, other times I'm a beast, while on other occasions I am absolutely nothing.
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BEAUTIFUL. May the multiplicity and the void dance!
 
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