Theanine Rebound Anxiety

[joedirt]

Hey gang,

I wanted to start this thread to let others know about theanine's 'ugly' side...

Background: I decided it was time to take a break from cannabis and reorder somethings in life. In times past cannabis withdrawal included things like low level anxiety, sleeplessness, night sweats, and general agitation that persisted for 7-14 day's. So this time I decided to give L-Theanine a shot.. and wow does it work. Like this is an amazing anxiolytic on par with I'd say Xanax... seriously. I would take them at night to help calm me and allow me to sleep..and yes theanine did work for this as I haven't had nearly the sleep disturbances from marijuana withdrawal that I have had in the past.

However I started noticing that I was having moderate anxiety the next day... I am not an anxious person. Like I have never really felt anxioussness like this...that is anxious feelings without a 'cause'. This was clearly something over and above placebo since I didn't even think it could happen with theanine. So I have been doing this for a over a week... each time if I take theaning during the day while anxious...30 minutes later all traces of anxiety are gone. I am now in full taper mode on theanine..which is easy since it has a 3h half-life..

That was my first data point. Knowing theanine's safety for animals I decided to try and use it to help with my cats anxiety around food. Instead what has happened is that when the theanine wears off our cat is hiding from us and barely responding. I got up in the middle of the night last night and found him hiding in our basement. This is a social cat and this was very uncharacteristic behavior..he didn't even come when we shook his food canister. A dose of theanine and 15 minutes later he is a different cat. I'm pretty sure based on my personal observations that he is going through theanine rebound.. he is now also in taper mode.

So I made this thread here because of the responses HERE, which is the only other place I have seen this mentioned..

However, I was really troubled by the way this OP was treated. Are they a bunch of kids over there or what? So anyway I didn't see the need to share my experiences in that thread as they would just be lost in the noise. So I created a thread here were hopeful the information will be better received.

In any event I think theanine has amazing potential as a temporary anxiolytic.. However I recommend people use a taper approach to coming off if they notice any sort of rebound anxiety and I also find the so called standard 200mg dose to be WAY to much. If you try theanine start with 50mg and see if that helps. Tea actually has even less than that and I still get descent relief just from tea.

 

[○]

Interesting stuff joedirt. I've never taken l-theanine by itslef, but have definitely felt it's effects in my matcha tea and silver needle white tea; one of the main reasons I drink them so often; the intense calming aspect that comes over me and persists for a good couple hours. I never realized that there could/would be a rebounding effect.

Thanks for pointing this out

 

[joedirt]

Interesting stuff joedirt. I've never taken l-theanine by itslef, but have definitely felt it's effects in my matcha tea and silver needle white tea; one of the main reasons I drink them so often; the intense calming aspect that comes over me and persists for a good couple hours. I never realized that there could/would be a rebounding effect.

I actually think Theanine could potentially be useful to help calm a bad trip.. I bet it would help ease anxiety without aborting the trip entirely.. This is something I plan to explore soon.

 

[jamie]

I was put on L-theanine by a doctor, who told me my adrenal functions were so low causing chronic fatigue, anxiety and panic attacks. I had to stop taking it because I began to feel worse after. I never made the connection with that and rebound, but it makes sense. I was on GABA as well.

 

[joedirt]

I was put on L-theanine by a doctor, who told me my adrenal functions were so low causing chronic fatigue, anxiety and panic attacks. I had to stop taking it because I began to feel worse after. I never made the connection with that and rebound, but it makes sense. I was on GABA as well.

Jamie do you happen to remember what your dose size was?

 

[Jin]

anxiety , panic

all this is uncontrolled kundalini energy

 

[jamie]

I was put on L-theanine by a doctor, who told me my adrenal functions were so low causing chronic fatigue, anxiety and panic attacks. I had to stop taking it because I began to feel worse after. I never made the connection with that and rebound, but it makes sense. I was on GABA as well.

Jamie do you happen to remember what your dose size was?

No, sorry..all I know is I had standardized theanine capsules.

 

[Doc Buxin]

Very interesting.

I've taken L-Theanine quite a few times in the last couple decades & never had any rebound effect. However, I haven't taken it on a super-regular basis either.

I have also sold a lot of it to many clients over the decades & have not had a report come back like this.

It is good information to know.

Thanks joedirt.

 

[Doc Buxin]

In the name of disseminating useful information, anyone exploring natural substances to utilize as anxiolytics should really do some research into the classic & patent Chinese medicines.

Check out: Suan Zao Ren Tang (Date Seed Decoction); An Mien Pian (Nourish Sleep Tablet); Chai Hu Long Gu Mu Li Tang (Bupluerum, Dragonbone & Oystershell Decoction); Gui Pi Tang (Restore The Spleen Decoction); Tian Wang Bu Xin Dan (Heavenly Emperor's Special Pill For The Heart) to name a few potent ones that can really help resolve the underlying imbalances creating the anxiety/insomnia.

Keep in mind that each of these formulas can & will treat anxiety &/or insomnia, but each is designed for a different body/mind type.

If any of you ever have any questions regarding Traditional Chinese Medicine you can PM me & I will do my best to help. I have been a student & practitioner of herbal medicine for 30+ years & for the decade+ I've been running an acupuncture clinic & herbal pharmacy.

Peace be with us all.:thumb_up:

 

[joedirt]

Very interesting.

I've taken L-Theanine quite a few times in the last couple decades & never had any rebound effect. However, I haven't taken it on a super-regular basis either.

I have also sold a lot of it to many clients over the decades & have not had a report come back like this.

It is good information to know.

Thanks joedirt.

My guess is that most people are simply unaware that it is happening. It's not like a serious withdrawal or anything, just a general heightened state of anxiety. I am certainly not hear to rail against theanine usage or anything. Like you noted "It is good information to know". Like most drugs it can have positives and negatives and it's best if everyone understands this. The concern I think would be for people that would start a daily regimen of using larger doses of it.. as it does lose effectiveness after a few day's.. This was my case.. I used it a couple of times a day for a few day's and then stopped and noticed it.. then I took one, got relief, next day noticed rebound. repeated that experiment a few times.. until I was pretty convinced of what was going on.

And no doubt in the future when I detox from marijuana again I will absolutely be using theanine to do so.. but I will go into it realizing that, for me at least, I need to taper off and only use it to get past the acute withdrawal symptoms of cannabis.

To be fair I have come across a few other reports (even though I said I only saw one in my initial post...the others weren't as detailed):

Theanine has a nasty rebound effect for me (it inhibits COMT) and actually make my anxiety worse after a while. I do not tolerate high doses of taurine also.

http://treato.com/VITAMELTS+RELAX,Rebound+Effect/?a=s

I had been using l-theanine but got anxious (more than usual at least..) when I saw that it said it increased GABA levels in the brain.

Misc - l-theanine and benzo withdrawal

I am currently tapering from benzos, im down to 2 mg valium. I understand this is a low dose. I had been using l-theanine but got anxious (more than usual at least..) when I saw that it said it increased GABA levels in the brain. DOes this mean it could slow down my recovery from benzo...

www.bluelight.org

Thead Title: After using Theanine, Extreme anxiety with GABA, doesn't go away HELP.

After using Theanine, Extreme anxiety with GABA, doesn't go away HELP. - Mental Health

Page 1 of 2 - After using Theanine, Extreme anxiety with GABA, doesn't go away HELP. - posted in Mental Health: Used Theanine a couple of times, no more than 200mg, with usual caffeine, tyrosine and other supps that i doubt had anything to do, and felt slightly anxious (caffeine tolerance is...

www.longecity.org

One other point to mention is that for most of my life people completely denied that there was any sort of rebound effect from cannabis (chronic consumption that is), but that has been proven at this point and countless people have started to talk about their rebounds. Just something to note that sometimes if people aren't expecting it to happen then they assume that their mood changes are related to to daily stress or something.

Also it could very well be individual biochemistry.. At this point I don't think there is enough information to make a scientific statement about it or anything. Just want to help inform people of the possibility of a rebound...

Check out: Suan Zao Ren Tang (Date Seed Decoction); An Mien Pian (Nourish Sleep Tablet); Chai Hu Long Gu Mu Li Tang (Bupluerum, Dragonbone & Oystershell Decoction); Gui Pi Tang (Restore The Spleen Decoction); Tian Wang Bu Xin Dan (Heavenly Emperor's Special Pill For The Heart) to name a few potent ones that can really help resolve the underlying imbalances creating the anxiety/insomnia.

Thanks for the information. I haven't really explored chinese medicine though it has been on my list of things to dive into.

 

[Doc Buxin]

One other point to mention is that for most of my life people completely denied that there was any sort of rebound effect from cannabis, but that has been proven at this point and countless people have started to talk about their rebounds. Just something to note that sometimes if people aren't expecting it to happen then they assume that their mood changes are related to to daily stress or something....

...Also it could very well be individual biochemistry..

No doubt! :lol: I find it very funny that people deny any rebound effect from Cannabis as I've experimented with it & used it from heavy use to sparingly to not at all in the last 40 years & have found that there definitey IS some kind of "rebound" or "withdrawl" period with Cannabis upon cessation of use.

Of course, that last line of yours is, in a very real way, the bottom line: Individual chemistry folks!!

 

[joedirt]

Of course, that last line of yours is, in a very real way, the bottom line: Individual chemistry folks!!

I'd say run this experiment to find out. Take 200mg twice a day for 7 day's and then stop. Notice how you feel over the course of the following 48 hours. Then report back.

You mention that you sell theanine to clients... so why not run the experiment so you have personal information to share with them? I can tell your a standup human from your posts. Anyway why not run the experiment yourself and find out. No real reason to speculate about it since it's cheap.. Also if you are willing to sell a drug to others it's certainly worth having a solid understanding of how it effects various people...yourself included. And that means in a variety of usage patters. I doubt using one off doses here or there would cause noticeable rebounds in people either, but I suspect that the experiment I described above would in fact show a clinically significant rebound effect.

And again this in no way means theanine is a bad drug or anything like that. It is however a drug that is known to raise GABA levels and cause dopamine release.. really hard to image how it wouldn't have a rebound effect from chronic use IMHO.

Peace Doc.. and thanks for the good dialog.

 

[Doc Buxin]

I'd say run this experiment to find out. Take 200mg twice a day for 7 day's and then stop. Notice how you feel over the course of the following 48 hours. Then report back.

You mention that you sell theanine to clients... so why not run the experiment so you have personal information to share with them? I can tell your a standup human from your posts. Anyway why not run the experiment yourself and find out. No real reason to speculate about it since it's cheap.. Also if you are willing to sell a drug to others it's certainly worth having a solid understanding of how it effects various people...yourself included. And that means in a variety of usage patters. I doubt using one off doses here or there would cause noticeable rebounds in people either, but I suspect that the experiment I described above would in fact show a clinically significant rebound effect.

And again this in no way means theanine is a bad drug or anything like that. It is however a drug that is known to raise GABA levels and cause dopamine release.. really hard to image how it wouldn't have a rebound effect from chronic use IMHO.

Peace Doc.. and thanks for the good dialog.

Please allow me to clarify that I don't sell a whole hell of a lot of l-theanine.

Running an acupuncture clinic & herbal pharmacy, we usually try to keep with whole herb extracts versus isolated nutrients & even moreso typically use classic (or the more modern "patent" ) herbal formulas so as to reduce, as much as possible, side effects. This takes into consideration that every substance has an "energetic", i.e. it's either warming or cooling, drying or moisturizing, etc.; it's either sour, sweet, spicy, bitter or bland, as all the flavors do different things to the human body; it enters specific channels of the body, the spleen channel, stomach channel, heart, pericardium, lung, etc). And of course, even in our own modern, Western vernacular we have categories like: That's an "upper" & that's a "downer". Thus each substance takes you in a particular "direction" & if you go too far in one direction you get what are known as side effects.

The idea behind the herbal formulas in Chinese medicine is to combine herbs in a such a way as to mitigate as many side effects as possible while increasing the benefits.

That being said, I do try almost everything that I've ever sold to clients. That is one of the biggest strengths of our particular business model. People appreciate it when you're suggesting they take an herbal supplement that you have already had experience with (whether it be good, bad or ugly).

We have presently only one product that contains theanine on our clinic shelves & we don't generally recommend it to people due to the fact that we have hundreds of herbal formulas that have been used by millions of people for thousands of years, vetted by Asian physicians for millennia & our clinic ethical code keeps us choosing those for most cases.

I personally prefer to use isolated, calming substances such as theanine or GABA for recreational use, not medicinal.

If I am having problems with anxiety or insomnia (which I've had lots of episodes in my life of) I prefer to use a well-balanced herbal formula that's going to nourish, moisten & calm the heart, the liver & the brain as well as deliver more blood to those organ systems.

 

[joedirt]

Great post Doc.

You are really peaking my interest in exploring Chinese medicine further.

That being said, I do try almost everything that I've ever sold to clients. That is one of the biggest strengths of our particular business model. People appreciate it when you're suggesting they take an herbal supplement that you have already had experience with (whether it be good, bad or ugly).

:thumb_up: I know if I was a client of yours I'd certainly appreciate that as well.

 

[joedirt]

Hey Doc, What would you recommend as a good starting point to explore chinese medicine? Websites/books/etc.


Peace.

 

[Doc Buxin]

Hey Doc, What would you recommend as a good starting point to explore chinese medicine? Websites/books/etc.


Peace.

A great book to get introduced into the philosophy & concepts behind Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) that is relatively easy to grasp (for us linear-thinking Westerners:roll: ) is Kaptchuk's "The Web That Has No Weaver".

Another book that gets more directly into the actual using of the medicines is "A Patient's Guide To Chinese Medicine", subtitled "Dr. Shen's Handbook Of Herbs & Acupuncture", by Schreck.

I occasionally use the website tcmassistant.com for looking up the particular energetics of a given herb or substance although I'm partial to the old textbooks in our office for that. Sometimes however an herb can be rather modern (only used in the last 200 years or so) & might not be in the old medical text translations that we have here, so then I go to the 'net.

 

[skoobysnax]

Great thread! I occasionaly use L-theanine. Rather than daily I use it in cases where i have had too.much coffee too late in the day or am stressed but dont want any sort of depressent. I have found with other nootropics i react better at doses lower than what the package says. On the subject of cannabis I have found that restricting use until the end of the day (9pm) and only when i am on my own time i enjoy it much more and experience less issues. My short term memory has vastly improved (thanks also to.pirarcatam and choline) and I don't get the burn out that pushed me to crave stimulants. THX Doc for the links. I will check those out as well.

 

[Doc Buxin]

...On the subject of cannabis I have found that restricting use until the end of the day (9pm) and only when i am on my own time i enjoy it much more and experience less issues.

I have found this to be true for myself as well!

Be well, do good work & keep in touch.


Have a wonderful weekend y'all....I'm out!!

 

[joedirt]

Great thread! I occasionaly use L-theanine. Rather than daily I use it in cases where i have had too.much coffee too late in the day or am stressed but dont want any sort of depressent. I have found with other nootropics i react better at doses lower than what the package says. On the subject of cannabis I have found that restricting use until the end of the day (9pm) and only when i am on my own time i enjoy it much more and experience less issues. My short term memory has vastly improved (thanks also to.pirarcatam and choline) and I don't get the burn out that pushed me to crave stimulants. THX Doc for the links. I will check those out as well.

I totally agree about marijuana as well. I often times just scale back to once a day.. and other times I make a break for a while. It's never the plant in question but my relationship to it at the time. Right now I'm in the process of some major life changes and simply prefer the clearer state of mind. Even once a day leaves an ever so slight fog into the next day.

Theanine is solid with caffiene for sure.. I love my daily cup of tea. Theanine has potential outside of the nootropic realm though. Studies have shown it's just as effective as Xanax for anxiety... That is pretty powerful tool in the hands of responsible people..

Also theanine does in fact have recreational potential. I notice a calm mellow at 200mg that is quite enjoyable.. though I'm not sure how much I will be using it for recreation myself..

Also I'm still very keen to find out if theanine can abort a bad trip? That would be fantastic news if it was the case.. though I have never personally aborted a trip myself.

 

[jamie]

I would suggest a mixture of skullcap and motherwort instead of theanine, to help with anxiety and slight cannabis withdrawls etc. Skullcap is really useful itself because it actually helps restore blown out nerves etc, rather than just mask anxiety as a typical benzo etc would do.

I personally like to combine skullcap, motherwort and passiflora. It's good to just start with one or 2 herbs though. Skullcap is the main one for me. Never found anything like it.

I am talking about the american skullcap..skutellaria lateriflora..and not chinese skullcap.

Cannabis once a day at night so far leaves no rebound effect for me, but once I start smoking frequently though the day and then stop, it is present.