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There are no answers, only questions. Mmmh really?

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clouds

clouds

Human
Why is it that some people believe that there is 'no explanation' for the 'mysteries' that are related to psychedelics in general and DMT in particular?
I mean, c'mon... thinking that we cannot know the mechanics, the reasons or the utility of intense psychedelic experiences is just giving up.

In the past, people thought that humans couldn't possibly know the mechanics of the cosmos or the nature of reproduction.
What happened? They thought that certain things were beyond human capacity to understand. That was proven false, thanks to science.

I think science can explain the mechanics and maybe (not as easily) the utility of such mysterious psychedelic experiences.
Which disciplines can help? Chemistry, Psychology, Biology, Neurology, Mathematics and Physics.

I seriously think that we humans just need to do some serious research about the brain and consciousness studies and some day in the future we will be able to comprehend why can we see these kind of things and how can we take advantage of it for the betterment of humanity. Maybe science will have to add more broader definitions for words like: psykhe, alucinari and synapsis in order to really start defining the essence of such words in relation with new evidence of these types of phenomenons.

I don't buy the 'its too deep for us to even understand' premise. That's just giving up.

Probably future generations will have a much better understanding about the DMT hyperspace, but that won't happen thanks to people that just came to the conclusion that it's impossible to know more about it, but thanks to people that systematically studied and recorded these experiences with the hope of trying to understand them.
 
clouds said:
I think science can explain the mechanics and maybe (not as easily) the utility of such mysterious psychedelic experiences.
Which disciplines can help? Chemistry, Psychology, Biology, Neurology, Mathematics and Physics.
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Hear hear! And I think understanding the mechanics of psychedelics goes hand-in-hand with trying to understand the mechanics of consciousness itself. (see Douglas Hofstadter, Roger Penrose, Daniel Dennett, Gerald Edelman, et al.)

But perhaps understanding the mechanics is different than understanding the specific content? I don't think there are many, if any, answers in the content. So perhaps the statement that 'there are no answers' refers to the specific content of psychedelic experiences? That is to say: I defy science to explain the meaning of what I saw last night, despite being able to offer some pretty convincing hypotheses as to why I saw it (e.g., Wallach, 2009).
 
We're not limited by our capability to understand, we are limited by our language.

Zen Buddhism speaks in koans, the teachings are something that cannot be communicated in words.
 
I defy science to explain the meaning of what I saw last night, despite being able to offer some pretty convincing hypotheses as to why I saw it (e.g., Wallach, 2009).
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Or James L. Kent's Psychedelic Information Theory at Psychedelic Information Theory: Home Page

Not perfect, but much better than anything I've seen before.

I think it can be done. For me, the identifying mark of a good scientific model for the psychedelic experience is that I don't feel any reductionism in it. For instance, from James L. Kent's work, I feel that he knows the deep parts and offers a good rational explanation for them. And where he cannot find a good model, he keeps the issue open (also very important).
 
cellux said:
Or James L. Kent's Psychedelic Information Theory at Psychedelic Information Theory: Home Page
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Wow, cellux! Thanks for this reference. I had not seen it. The first thing that caught my eye in starting to read what is available in the link is the notion of determining the limits of the systems involved. I am fascinated by this idea -- the limits of the content that might be manifest by the experience. So far, though, I have been astonished at the lack thereof, having had some recent extreme synesthesia involving the confusion of thought for color, etc.

So maybe there is a way to talk scientifically about the content as well as the why, to a degree.
 
I am not religious or reductionist, I am something different perhaps realist and naturalist, or perhaps psychedel-ist or perhaps just mad:wink: . but do we need to understand everything to make use of the info we find in the inner spaces? I have always felt that the high is a form of communication between the world of "Gaia" for lack of a better word, and the human. Maybe wee were meant to be of some real use to the metaorganism of terra, and we need the neuro transmitters like dmt and betacarbolines to bee told what the will of the organic world is. Every living thing has some sort of consciousness, and awareness of its surroundings. from the natural world wee se communication between very different species, and also mind control with the use of neuro transmitters or chemicals mimicking them. We may be controlled by the herbs we consume, or we may be enhanced by them, there really is no way to know for sure.

There may also be a way to see other dimensions than the ones we are naturally aware of. We have in our natural state of mind a real problem in comprehending other dimensions, even dimensions we know are there is difficult to comprehend. So dmt and the other psychedelics can be a way to se, hear and communicate with the entity's living there. they may also be the personas of the intelligent species of our world, the fungi, plant, insect, and others. I do not know, and I do not care, it is interesting meeting them no matter what they are.

May there always be the unknown, and may there always be answers to find. and may there always be a reason to travel.
 
I don't think that scientific research necessarily means that there won't be anymore things that remain a mystery.
It's not like if you HAVE to believe what serious studies show, or like if your opinion doesn't matter at all.

If anyone wants to believe strange stuff based in zero evidence except their own experience, that's fine. As long as they respect others.

But I really don't think that science is a 'trip killer'. Maybe THERE ARE another dimensions, maybe THERE ARE spirits.
Scientific research doesn't mean that they'll come to the conclusion that hallucinations are delusional and a waste of time.

Right now scientific research about psychedelics is headed more toward the medical properties, and no so much about the ontological questions.
But sooner or later the questions will be addressed.

Thank God that these experiences are repeatable. That will help to understand the mechanics.
About the meaning... well... maybe it is reflection as some suggest, or maybe is another reality, or maybe its a collective unconscious.
It's all speculation right now... and I don't have any problem with that. But I hope that people don't just reject serious scientific research just because they don't agree with it or because they still think hallucinations are something that is beyond human understanding. Little by little human understanding has been progressing, and I'm pretty sure this time it won't be different, as I said, it's just a matter of time.

It may be hard to explain, and maybe there is a looong road before some certainty. That only makes it much more exciting.
 
Good thread Clouds. This is why I am studying science, I wanna be part of the front in this and try to make sure psychedelics get the attention they deserve. Really, it is not the psychedelics themselves that is worthy the attention, it is simply our minds. Psychedelics just seem to catalyze a lot of crazy shit worth investigating.
 
psychedelics are an introspaecive mirror used to explore the regions of one's own inner being...understaning one's self is in essence understang all of life, for really we are all one...i believe what we see is the intelacing connections of TheIs...in seeing this one has an epihany, a supreame awe of pure beauty and peace raidating through you in tangeable extacy; it is a spiritual anodyne and should be used as such in marriage coulceling, dsyfuncial familys and menal problems such as ocd, anorexia, codependency, etc
 
clouds said:
Why is it that some people believe that there is 'no explanation' for the 'mysteries' that are related to psychedelics in general and DMT in particular?
I mean, c'mon... thinking that we cannot know the mechanics, the reasons or the utility of intense psychedelic experiences is just giving up.
Click to expand...
There is quite a big difference between believing that there is currently “no explanation” for the specifics, the “mysteries”, of the DMT experience and believing “that we cannot know the mechanics, the reasons or the utility of intense psychedelic experiences”.

We know very little about such matters now. We will know more in the future.

When some people say that there are no answers, only questions, I think they’re referring (as headphoneperson suggested) to the content of experiences. In other words, if people use DMT expecting certain particular questions about their personal lives to be answered, they will probably be disappointed.
 
(this is my first post...just figured out how this works)
An individual I consider enlightened - now deceased - once told me that science would understand the "state of mind" of a Buddha-kind-of-being once its understanding of biochemistry, especially biochemistry of the bloodstream, caught up. That was in the mid '70's. I think our understanding of seratonin uptake and reuptake, the various receptors and what typtamines, etc, do to them was just taking off at that time. Research into psychadelics kind of died off for those last 20 or 30 years until just recently. If you poke around, you can see that respectable science is now starting to look again at psychadelics. Since it is suspected that the body makes some very interesting chemicals such as dmt on its own, one well-known researcher has started focusing on developing assay tests to identify the presence of these things in the blood or in different glands under various situations. I imagine that the levels of these interesting chemicals in the blood is extremely minute and that science has never before been able to measure it for major studies of disease, dreaming, deep sleep ... or just plain old psychonauting. Just my opinion, but the next 20 years of this research ought to head in startling new dimensions.
 
Thank God that these experiences are repeatable.
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I think they are not. What I find most likely is that once scientists start dabbling with the really important questions ( what you called "ontological questions" ) through the use of psychedelics, they will find that the results of their experiments are 100% dependent on their own personal history and therefore, unrepeatable (or repeatable only by the person who had the experience).

If science is only possible when the experimental results are reproducible, then the understanding of ontological questions can never become a target of scientific investigation.
 
I think one of the great things about psychedelics is that they allow you to appreciate the mystery and wonder of the universe. I think this is a great lesson to be learned and i think its inherent in the experience, because i believe psychedelics de-condition you. Previous conditioning creates a sense of normality, the surprise comes when the conditioning is removed and you can see things as if for the first time.
 
BananaForeskin said:
We're not limited by our capability to understand, we are limited by our language.

Zen Buddhism speaks in koans, the teachings are something that cannot be communicated in words.
Click to expand...

If everyone understood this through and through, would it change productivity?

DMT makes me aware of this to certain extent, it feels quite humbling to know.
 
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