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Think iv cracked it

Migrated topic.
soulman

soulman

Rising Star
So recently SWIM has been pondering his lack of success with aya.
At first he thought it might be down to the brew, but this was ruled out by the fact that most of his experiences are in a ceremonial settings where other participants have reported fantastic journies.
So then he thought it may be his high metabolism and he was just breakin the dmt down to quickly or something.
Now he has read here and elsewhere that some people need to eat AFTER drinking in order to achieve the desired results.
He came across this nugget today:

Ayahuasca And Food

Foods that are high in fat may cause an ayahuasca trip to kick in or it may cause a user who has come down to experience an additional wave of effects.

In some cases, a person will drink ayahuasca and feel no effect. Then they eat something and the ayahuasca experience starts. If you have consumed ayahuasca and it seems to be taking a while for the experience to start, you can try eating some food that is high in fat (but MAOI safe).

DMT can get trapped in the human liver. The DMT trapped in the liver will be introduced to the bloodstream when the gall bladder empties into the small intestine.

Eating fat will trigger the release of a hormone called cholecystokinen. The cholecystokinen causes the gall bladder to contract and empty into the small intestine


SWIM feels that this is defo where things have been goin wrong and plans to try eating something fatty after drinking next time.

Has anyone else experienced this or can anyone suggest a good something to eat for after that they have found works well for them?
 
I have never tried that myself, but it seems logical. Would you mind sharing your source?

I am also wondering if you have ever tried pharmahuasca. I tried doing the brews a few times with limited success. Extracting the chems and then taking them a half hour apart seemed to do the trick for me. One time it was actually a little bit too much, well a lot a bit too much.

I wish you luck in your journey with the aya.

~Peace Out
 
^^^

Hey man,

I read about it here

And yes, i have had a go with the old pharmahuasca
Had 140mg THH and drunk 3drops of harmaline tincture in some water.
After 20mins i dissolved 80mg of spice in oj and downed it. 20mins later wasnt really feeling anything, so I dosed with another 80mg in oj. After another 20mins i was felling a liitle heavier and notice very slight visuals, but nothing great, soooo i decided to dose once more with 140mg.
I thought ths would do the job, but it just brought on some more light visuals.
But nothing very strong at all considering the amount of DMT taken.
I think if i did decide to eat something after this i may have been in a world of trouble : )
 
This is why Alan Shoemaker recommends to eat a buttered (!) toast when the journey does not come on during a certemony. Cielo has tried that successfully!
 
An interesting post i found whilst readin around the topic over on the aya forums........

"Eating definately seems to boost the experience. Someone mentioned yougurt is great for this, and I can second this. Also, yougurt contains pretty good amount of l-tyrosine, which is converted in brain to dopamine, which is the stimulating and feel-good neurotransmitter. Also current antipsychotics that dampen all kind of hallucinations block the effect of dopamine on brain."
 
If a lot of people report responses to eating, then there's likely some truth to it.

I don't buy the "bile release" explanation; sounds to me like somebody's made-up process. If DMT is "trapped" in your liver, the release of bile into the small intestine is not going to change anything about what the liver has "trapped" or not trapped...

I think a more likely explanation is simply that eating begins the process of moving stomach contents on to the small intestine--where most drugs are absorbed. Just drinking something might not be sufficient stimulation to cause the stomach processes needed to pass the stomach contents on to the small intestine. Furthermore, fats can assist drug molecules that are otherwise electrically charged (as a salt is) to more easily cross the intestinal wall and enter the bloodstream.

Also, if a person is fearful, gut transit is severely limited--and the pyloric valve may close and stay closed.
 
yougurt would have the advantage of having the fat as well as the l-tyrosine but as you should avoid dairy (they lower your vibrations) I would not recommend that. The best choice would be raw cacao nibs or beans as they contain fat (non-animal fat) and a whole load of vitamins and neurotransmitter precursors such as l-tyrosine:

Raw cacao, also known as raw chocolate or cocoa, is an increasingly popular healthy alternative to regular chocolate. It is an appetite suppressant so it can help in losing weight. It makes you feel good too since it’s a natural anti-depressant. Raw chocolate is also great in raw puddings (see recipe below) or makes a satisfying snack.

Cacao beans contain over 300 chemically identifiable compounds making it one of the most complex food substances on Earth! Here are some of its most important and powerful components:

Magnesium: Magnesium helps to promote the health of the heart muscle and also reduces blood coagulation, therefore lowering blood pressure. Cacao is loaded with Magnesium.
Antioxidants: Cacao beans are rich in antioxidant flavonols. Cacao beans contain a staggering 10% antioxidant concentration level! Cacao is one of the richest sources of antioxidants of any food.
Phenylethylamine (PEA): PEA is a chemical in cacao that helps us stay alert. Higher PEA levels occur when we are fascinated or captivated by something and are abundant in the brains of happy people. Cacao has been found to contain up to 2.2% phenylethylamine (PEA).
Anandamide (The Bliss Chemical): Cacao has been found to contain a significant amount of a neurotransmitter called anandamide. Anandamide is known as "the bliss chemical" because when it is released it makes us feel great.
Monoamine Oxidase Inhibitors (MAO Inhibitors): When consumed, MAO inhibitors allow more serotonin and other neurotransmitters such as anandamide and dopamine be released. MAO inhibitors, according to Dr. Gabriel Cousens facilitate rejuvenation and youthening.


Our Cacao Powder is made by taking raw Cacao beans and cold-pressing the oil out. Once the oil has been separated, a cake like substance remains. This is then finely filtered to create our premium grade powder. When processed in this way, the incredible raw Cacao Powder produced contains more antioxidants than any other known food. To measure a foods antioxidants we use an ORAC test. ORAC stands for oxygen radical absorbance capacity and is a measure of how effective a food might be at reducing the effects of harmful free radicals (responsible for disease and the aging process).
Creative Natures RAW Cacao has an ORAC value 400% higher than the very best versions of the standard roasted cacao powder and 40 times the ORAC value of raw Blueberries!! (Cacao powder measures 95,500 on the ORAC scale as opposed to a 2,400 score for Blueberries)


The powdering process is undertaken in a controlled environment ensuring the temperature remains low, therefore maintaining the nutritional potency. In fact processing Cacao in this way actually increases the health benefits up to 33%.

• Cacao contains over 300 identifiable chemical compounds, making it the most complex food substance on earth.
• Cacao has an abundance of natural anti-stress and bliss inducing compounds such as:
• Serotonin
• Tryptophan
• Anandamide
• Dopamine
• And Phenylethylamine (PEA)
• Cacao is also extremely high in antioxidants ( 40 times more than Blueberries)
• Arganine
And
• Magnesium


• Arginine found in Cacao Powder is an amino acid and along with its aphrodisiac properties can also be used by body builders to build muscle and aid recovery.
• Phenylethylamine (PEA) is also a known aphrodisiac used by courting couples to take potential relationships to the next level!
• The anti stress and bliss inducing compounds enable Cacao Powder to be used as a natural form of ‘Prozac’.
• Cacao also contains MAO inhibitors which allow more of these feel good neurotransmitters to circulate in the brain for longer.
• Trytophan found in Cacao is a relaxant and helps aid sleep.
• Magnesium which is found in abundance in Cacao Powder increases overall vigour of the heart muscle and decreases blood coagulation which lowers blood pressure and helps the heart pump more effectively.
• Cacao powder’s high antioxidant content enables destructive free radicals to be stabilised which would otherwise be left to damage cells and tissues, responsible for signs of aging.


Cacao Powder is delicious and extremely versatile enabling the individual to create smoothies, shakes, cakes, sweets and many more creative delights that are not only sensational for the taste buds but also healthy for the body.

When mixed with anything with a natural sweetness (ie bananas) the chocolaty flavour is released. Rarely has a product so nutritious tasted so delicious!

Your imagination is the only limitation when using this product however as with all foods cooking destroys the nutritional benefits considerably.

Also please note that mixing cacao with dairy (as with traditional chocolate) actually inhibits the bodies ability to absorb the healing properties of Cacao. We therefore recommend if you are making hot chocolates, smoothies or shakes to blend Cacao Powder with non-dairy products.
 
thesource said:
yougurt would have the advantage of having the fat as well as the l-tyrosine but as you should avoid dairy (they lower your vibrations) I would not recommend that. The best choice would be raw cacao nibs or beans as they contain fat (non-animal fat) and a whole load of vitamins and neurotransmitter precursors such as l-tyrosine:
Click to expand...

It is standard safety lore to AVOID foods containing l-tyrosine when using MAOIs (although tyrosine's breakdown product, tyramine, is the direct culprit).
 
soulman said:
"Eating definately seems to boost the experience. Someone mentioned yougurt is great for this, and I can second this. Also, yougurt contains pretty good amount of l-tyrosine, which is converted in brain to dopamine, which is the stimulating and feel-good neurotransmitter. Also current antipsychotics that dampen all kind of hallucinations block the effect of dopamine on brain."
Click to expand...
 
I'll repeat: Those who eat foods containing tyramine (and by extension, tyrosine--some of which is degraded to tyramine in the gut) are contravening a LONG HELD SAFETY PROTOCOL for users of ayahuasca to AVOID such foods when taking an MAOI (which is part of the ayahausca brew).

Some say these precautions are overdoing it a bit (69ron eats cheese pizza after ayahuasca!).

I would recommend you don't risk it.

If you want to try eating fatty food to help move ayahuasca through the stomach, I recommend something low in protein, and something NOT fermented. Avocados might be nice!

EDIT: Actually Avocado is considered a HIGH PROTEIN FOOD--and would probably NOT be good to eat with ayahuasca!
 
that is old information, that has been proven incorrect!
And not just by 69ron, although I've learned to take pretty much anything he say's to be legitimate.
So far, his advice has never steered me in the wrong direction. Not even close!!

The thing with the Harmalas found in B.Caapi & S.Rue (the ayahuasca "MAOI's") is that they are not full-on MAOI's in the pharmaceutical sense of the word.
They are RIMA's ("reversible inhibitor of MAO-A"), short acting MAOI's that are only active for 2-3 hours & do not block the enzyme in the same way. Making it unnecessary to actually follow the strict diet's of the Curedaro's, unless you want to include that in you "ceremony".

Wikipedia said:
Reversibility
The early MAOIs inhibited monoamine oxidase irreversibly. When they react with monoamine oxidase, they permanently deactivate it, and the enzyme cannot function until it has been replaced by the body, which can take about two weeks.
A few newer MAOIs, notably moclobemide, are reversible, meaning that they are able to detach from the enzyme to facilitate usual catabolism of the substrate. The level of inhibition in this way is governed by the respective concentrations of the substrate and the MAOI.

Harmaline found in Peganum harmala, as well as the Ayahuasca vine, Banisteriopsis caapi, is a "reversible inhibitor of MAO-A (RIMA)."
Click to expand...

So there really is nothing to get too worried about, unless you are taking certain prescription meds.
Of course, there is no reason to push it, but also there's no need to go way out of your way or anything.

I just remember reading a post someone wrote here a while back that gave this huge page-long suggested "Ayahuasca Diet" that they said should be followed in order to not have a bad experience (BS!).
It suggested things like abstaining from any prescribed drugs for months before & after the experience & not eating anything but rice and/or beans for a month or two before & after taking ayahuasca. Plus a load of other way over-board suggestions.
That is not only an unnecessary pain in the ass, but could potentially be dangerous depending on what prescriptions you are supposed to be taking.
So unless you feel the need to make yourself suffer before taking aya, I don't know why you would need to do any of that.

Like 69ron, I too have not had any issues with foods eaten the day before, or the same day as taking Ayahuasca, or Pharmahuasca!!
I prefer not to have anything in my stomach when I take either of them, so I usually try not to eat anything for like an hour or two before I take it, but if I'm hungry...I'm gonna eat a 'lil something!!

With Pharmahuasca I too usually will eat something like bread about 10-20 minutes after taking it, to help digest it all quicker.

Cheers!

WS
 
Yes quite.

Anyway, SWIM has not had much joy journying and so will be trying the "eating after ingestion" route this wknd.
I will be sure that he keeps you all posted
 
The ingestion of tyramines and ANY KIND of MAOI inhibition around the same time CAN have drastic effects--that is a physiological fact that cannot be overturned by 69ron or anyone else!

If that effect is AVOIDED by some propitious circumstances--relative timing and pharmacological durations of particular MAOIs and food, individual variations in response, etc.---then that's NICE...

But anyone allowing "wishful thinking" to allow themselves to conclude that the laws of physiology have been changed just for their convenience is potentially risking their life and health.


.....and I wouldn't want to be the owner of a site--or a poster on a site who recommended that MAOI risks be ignored--which site/posts are later found on the computer of someone who has just died from a hypertensive crisis!
 
That's not quite what I meant...

Obviously you don't want to drink freaking lard right after drinking a shot of ayahuasca or taking a few mg's of Harmala's.
That is plain stupid, I doubt most people doing this are really that dumb.

But the "traditional Ayahuasca diet" has been proven by numbers of people now to be unnecessary & more to do with ceremony than safety, especially with the Curederos of South America where this all originated.
And also to have been confused & mingled with the known side effects of pharmaceutical MAOI's as it has become more popular.
It just blown a bit out of proportion. Really.

A lot of people I know who take Ayahuasca regularly still follow a fairly strict diet, even though they know now that it's really not necessary.
It seems healthy living & eating in general help to make the experience easier on the body & tends to follow along with the Ayahuasca "lifestyle" at some point anyway.
Definitely did with me!!

WS
 
warrensaged said:
That's not quite what I meant...

Obviously you don't want to drink freaking lard right after drinking a shot of ayahuasca or taking a few mg's of Harmala's.
That is plain stupid, I doubt most people doing this are really that dumb.

But the "traditional Ayahuasca diet" has been proven by numbers of people now to be unnecessary & more to do with ceremony than safety, especially with the Curederos of South America where this all originated.
And also to have been confused & mingled with the known side effects of pharmaceutical MAOI's as it has become more popular.
It just blown a bit out of proportion. Really.

A lot of people I know who take Ayahuasca regularly still follow a fairly strict diet, even though they know now that it's really not necessary.
It seems healthy living & eating in general help to make the experience easier on the body & tends to follow along with the Ayahuasca "lifestyle" at some point anyway.
Definitely did with me!!

WS
Click to expand...

Actually, drinking lard would be FINE--from the point of view of the risks of MAOIs, tyramine, and hypertensive crisis.

To give definitive statements about the relative dangers of reversible vs irreversible MAOIs, and dangers being over-estimated would require expert analysis at the highest level AND definitive studies of the drugs involved and exactly how they're taken. That analysis and those studies are not available.

I'd like to remind you that I have a PhD in molecular biology, have done considerable scientific research, spent two years in medical school (and the first two years are where ALL the physiology and pharamacology is learned that a doctor will EVER learn--excluding actual experience, of course). That doesn't mean I'm RIGHT about anything, or KNOW anything in particular. BUT IT DOES MEAN ONE THING: I'm familiar with the TYPE of analysis, data, and experience that would be necessary to make the pronouncements that you make...and...if you possess them, you haven't made reference to them.

Furthermore, I gave a VERY RATIONAL AND REALISTIC explanation of the situation and examples given: eating may simply assist moving the ayahuasca contents from the stomach and into the duodenum--where the vast majority of pharamacologic agents are absorbed. In addition, fats are known to assist the absorption of many drugs through the duodenum. Those simple facts alone can explain why some people find eating assists the onset of ayahausca's effects. And that eating, including some fat, can be done WITHOUT the need to eat foods containing high levels of tyramine or tyrosine!

The best things to eat are probably fruits (EXCLUDING bananas and avocados!). Certainly, a couple apples, oranges, whatever, will encourage any ayahuasca remaining in the stomach to pass into the duodenum. If one wants to add some fat to the mix he could take a few "omega 3 oil" capsules--they're good for you anytime!
 
Infundibulum said:
Cool mod fight here!
Click to expand...

I don't consider myself to be in any fight. I just want a DEFINITIVE STATEMENT TO BE MADE that makes it clear that sound, well-tested medical advice to be WARY about consuming MAOIs and tyramine/tyrosine containing foods HAS NOT CHANGED! The AMA has not made an announcement: "Oops, sorry. Forget all that MAOI caution stuff!"
 
warrensaged said:
Yeah, no ones fighting here, just having a discussion.
Click to expand...

That's right. And I think the discussion was about TWO DIFFERENT THINGS. I think warrensaged was remarking that the ELABORATE and LENGTHY food restrictions traditionally surrounding ayahuasca intake were based more on sacred ritual than on medical reasons--and I completely agree. What I was saying was that MEDICAL issues have not changed, and based strictly on those, someone using ayahuasca should AVOID tyramine and tyrosine containing foods during the time that the ayahuasca MAOIs were ACTIVE--which would include the time the MAOIs were taken, and certainly at least a few hours following. Furthermore, I didn't say that eating should be avoided (in fact I suggested that eating was OK, to help move the ayahuasca ingredients into the small intestine where they could be absorbed). I only said that MAOI-related foods should be avoided during that time.

I'd like to add something else: Do people understand WHY those foods are to be avoided? Sometimes I don't think so...the reason I say that is because I think people think that if users don't end up dead or in a ambulance that everything was probably OK. But that's not true. The fact is that any significant amount of tyramine that gets through the liver because MAOI are active is going to BEGIN TO INCREASE BLOOD PRESSURE. But

1) That's ALWAYS a bad thing--and the MORE it's increased, the MORE of a bad thing it is
2) That's USUALLY never noticed--unless a tragic event occurs, like a stroke, a vessel tearing, or a heart attack because a small chunk of plaque has lifted off a coronary artery (plaque which even young people typically have in their arteries).

So, I want to ask all those (like 69ron, who eats PIZZA after ingesting ayahuasca): How often do they measure their blood pressure during the following 6 hours or so of their ayahuasca journey? I'm beting they don't measure it at all. And my point is that they could in fact have CRITICALLY DANGEROUS BLOOD PRESSURE because of the cheese they ate, and don't know it because they're young and healthy and THIS TIME they could stand having blood pressure of 200/140 for 4 hours straight without an artery giving out on them. Certainly, they wouldn't feel it--ESPECIALLY in an altered state of consciousness.

Therefore, reports of "I ate, and I was OK" are NOT MEDICALLY RELEVANT!

That's the main point I wish to get across. It is VERY UNWISE to consume food that contains substantial amounts of tyramine/tyrosine around the time you're taking ayahuasca! But other foods are fine--from a MAOI perspective.
 
Perhaps we could experiment, load up on foods with a known tyramine content and hook up a shitload of heavily experienced trippers to a blood pressure monitor. Have a control group where nobody eats tyramine loaded foods and another group where everyone eats a small amount, etc. If you're going to claim that one may have critically dangerous blood pressure as a result of eating cheese pizza on harmala alkaloids then I'd like to see evidence. Here is some to the contrary, with regards to Moclobemide users:

(Tolerability of moclobemide said:
Moclobemide, a new selective and reversible inhibitor of monoamine oxidase A (RIMA), has been compared with various tricyclic antidepressants (TCAs) in numerous controlled studies. Pooled data from these studies, comprising 1656 patients, as well as the consideration of individual trials, show that moclobemide is far better tolerated than the TCAs. Its side effects mainly comprise mild degrees of nausea and dizziness at the beginning of treatment in a small proportion of patients. Age and sex do not affect the tolerability of moclobemide: it is equally well tolerated by elderly patients. In 2300 patients treated with moclobemide in doses up to 600 mg/day, without dietary restrictions, there was no tyramine-related hypertensive reaction. It is concluded that moclobemide may be the second-generation antidepressant doctors were waiting for - equally effective as the classical antidepressants but far better tolerated.
Click to expand...
 
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