Think iv cracked it

[SWIMfriend]

Perhaps we could experiment, load up on foods with a known tyramine content and hook up a shitload of heavily experienced trippers to a blood pressure monitor. Have a control group where nobody eats tyramine loaded foods and another group where everyone eats a small amount, etc. If you're going to claim that one may have critically dangerous blood pressure as a result of eating cheese pizza on harmala alkaloids then I'd like to see evidence. Here is some to the contrary, with regards to Moclobemide users:

Moclobemide, a new selective and reversible inhibitor of monoamine oxidase A (RIMA), has been compared with various tricyclic antidepressants (TCAs) in numerous controlled studies. Pooled data from these studies, comprising 1656 patients, as well as the consideration of individual trials, show that moclobemide is far better tolerated than the TCAs. Its side effects mainly comprise mild degrees of nausea and dizziness at the beginning of treatment in a small proportion of patients. Age and sex do not affect the tolerability of moclobemide: it is equally well tolerated by elderly patients. In 2300 patients treated with moclobemide in doses up to 600 mg/day, without dietary restrictions, there was no tyramine-related hypertensive reaction. It is concluded that moclobemide may be the second-generation antidepressant doctors were waiting for - equally effective as the classical antidepressants but far better tolerated.

I'm very curious to know WHY people are so INSISTENT that it's necessary to be able to eat a cheese pizza with their ayahuasca. Is it really such a great BURDEN to forego cheese when using ayahuasca? That's really the main, bottom line point of this entire discussion. I strongly recommend that people take no chances and give up cheese pizza ON THE FREAKIN' DAY THEY'RE GOING TO BE USING AYAHUASCA! Jesus! You'd think I was insisting people had to give up SEX for a year before--and after--using ayahuasca!

Be that as it may, the beta carbolines are NOT "moclobemide." But, from information I can find in a quick search, at least some of them ARE MAO-A inhibitors, which is BAD (because that's this isozyme that deactivates tyramine), and reversible inhibitors, which is GOOD (see below).

But do you really understand the implications of reversible vs irreversible inhibition, and what it means to thereby have "reduced" risk of "cheese syndrome" with reversible inhibitors?

It's obvious to people what "irreversible" means, and why that can increase risk--so I won't elaborate on that. But what makes you think that "reversible" inhibition is a free pass? What reversible inhibition means is that the inhibitor binds only TEMPORARILY to the enzyme, and then detaches. While it's bound, the enzyme can't be used to catalyze the substrates it's meant to catalyze, and when released it can. What this means is that AT HIGH CONCENTRATIONS, REVERSIBLE INHIBITORS CAN BE VIRTUALLY JUST AS EFFECTIVE AS IRREVERSIBLE INHIBITORS. The simple upshot of that is that ALL IT TAKES is one solid occurrence of a high concentration of those friendly reversible inhibitors AND the presence of tyramine at the SAME TIME for tyramine to do its dirty deed.

Sure...it's LESS LIKELY for that to happen with reversible inhibitors than irreversible inhibitors--UNDER NORMAL MEDICAL CIRCUMSTANCES! But ayahuasca sessions are NOT normal medical circumstances; they are times of "pointed dosing" intended to elicit very STRONG effects from the drugs taken. Any PRUDENT PERSON would agree with me that, at those times, it's wise to avoid all possible risks.

Finally, I want to ask all the the people out there who seem to want to argue this point (or to do experiments on fellow psychonauts!): Are you really SO READY to assist in risking SOMEONE ELSE'S life by (very weirdly) practically BEGGING them to eat cheese with ayahuasca, in order to.....I don't know what....prove some point--a point which you can't POSSIBLY possess the specific evidence to guarantee with certainty that absolutely NOBODY is absolutely EVER at risk eating cheese when doing ayahuasca??

I'm beginning to feel that I'm giving a recommendation for people NOT to shoot themselves in the head...and out of the woodwork are coming gangs of people offering lists of the MANY people who SURVIVED a gunshot to the head, and of people who DROVE THEMSELVES TO THE HOSPITAL after being shot in the head, and the person who's LIFE WAS CHANGED FOR THE BETTER after being shot in the head....

I think I'll still recommend people don't shoot themselves in the head :roll:

 

[Infundibulum]

Cool mod fight here!

I don't consider myself to be in any fight. I just want a DEFINITIVE STATEMENT TO BE MADE that makes it clear that sound, well-tested medical advice to be WARY about consuming MAOIs and tyramine/tyrosine containing foods HAS NOT CHANGED! The AMA has not made an announcement: "Oops, sorry. Forget all that MAOI caution stuff!"

Yeah, I was indeed joking here - I actually enjoy the discussion thus far.

My opinion on the sublect is that tyramine is metabolised by both MAO-A and MAO-B (contrary to what SWIMfriend claimed on the previous post). Tyramine is a phenethylamine and it is more likely to be metabolised by MAO-B. This is indeed the case and I was actually surprised to find that MAO-A also metabolises tyramine. What I was not able to find however was rates of enzymatic function as well as binding affinities of tyramine to MAOs. In other words, to which MAO is tyramine a better substrate?

But it may not even be that necessary. The action of commonly used MAOIs in aya (harmine, harmaline, tetrahydroharmine) when used in the right amounts should pose no considerable health risk to healty individuals. Theory predicts that any tyramine ingested during aya can be taken care of by the MAO-B and to a lesser extend by the reversibly inhibited MAO-A.

SWIM has also tried insane food combinations when on harmine/harmaline. Pizza is just the tip of the iceberg. He has been munching literally on whole rods of salami and blue cheese and drinking strong ales. It doesn't get worse (maybe he should have included some seafood as well?) He always came out fine and he does not think he is going to have any long-term damages from the transienty elevated tyramine levels.

Which brings me to the next point; the long term effects. SWIM believes that it is pretty difficult to associate long-term effects with harmine/harmaline uptake and certain food combos. Any studies on long term effects on tyramine exposure are mostly likely suited for people who regularly take MAOIs. People who go on aya hardly do it once a week. I would be surprised if anyone around here consumes harmine/harmaline on daily basis.

On the contrary, if there were any effects frm tyramine mis-metabolism they would be most likely manifested acutely. Headaches, hypertansion, arrhythmias etc after tyramine harmine/harmaline combos would appear shortly after and the user would be alarmed of his limits. Thus far SWIM has never heard of such instances from people doing aya without following dietary restrictions.

I do not think that there is enough evidence to support that harmine/harmaline can cause problems long term and SWIM would not be afraid to continue his gluttonous aya sessions. On the other hand however, SWIMfriend makes a very valid point, that is better safe than sorry. And it does not really take much efford to be safe. But SWIM for the moment prefers to be sorry and push the boundaries of himself.

 

[WSaged]

I'm very curious to know WHY people are so INSISTENT that it's necessary to be able to eat a cheese pizza with their ayahuasca. Is it really such a great BURDEN to forego cheese when using ayahuasca? That's really the main, bottom line point of this entire discussion. I strongly recommend that people take no chances and give up cheese pizza ON THE FREAKIN' DAY THEY'RE GOING TO BE USING AYAHUASCA! Jesus! You'd think I was insisting people had to give up SEX for a year before--and after--using ayahuasca!

Finally, I want to ask all the the people out there who seem to want to argue this point (or to do experiments on fellow psychonauts!): Are you really SO READY to assist in risking SOMEONE ELSE'S life by (very weirdly) practically BEGGING them to eat cheese with ayahuasca, in order to.....I don't know what....prove some point--a point which you can't POSSIBLY possess the specific evidence to guarantee with certainty that absolutely NOBODY is absolutely EVER at risk eating cheese when doing ayahuasca??

I'm beginning to feel that I'm giving a recommendation for people NOT to shoot themselves in the head...and out of the woodwork are coming gangs of people offering lists of the MANY people who SURVIVED a gunshot to the head, and of people who DROVE THEMSELVES TO THE HOSPITAL after being shot in the head, and the person who's LIFE WAS CHANGED FOR THE BETTER after being shot in the head....

I think I'll still recommend people don't shoot themselves in the head :roll:

Geez man...
With all due respect...I think the way your waaaaaaay over doing this & the way you are saying what your saying is probably why it might seem like people are arguing with you. Ya know...

I didn't read anywhere in this thread where someone was "practically BEGGING them to eat cheese with ayahuasca" or "insisting" on that either. And I'm not sure why you've taken such a hostile tone about it.

Most of us have read those same facts about MAOI's plenty of times & I'm thinking those of us who actually experience what we are talking about here on a regular basis, take enough care to not eat fondo (or lard) when doing it!!
And I'm pretty sure we are intelligent enough to take the knowledge of those possible side effects into account if eating while, or right before drinking Ayahuasca, to avoid putting ourselves in any serious danger. At least I would hope so!
I also think that the people who've expressed the opposite opinion to yours in this thread, have said nothing more than that so far.

WS

 

[jamie]

I'll repeat: Those who eat foods containing tyramine (and by extension, tyrosine--some of which is degraded to tyramine in the gut) are contravening a LONG HELD SAFETY PROTOCOL for users of ayahuasca to AVOID such foods when taking an MAOI (which is part of the ayahausca brew).

Some say these precautions are overdoing it a bit (69ron eats cheese pizza after ayahuasca!).

I would recommend you don't risk it.

If you want to try eating fatty food to help move ayahuasca through the stomach, I recommend something low in protein, and something NOT fermented. Avocados might be nice!

EDIT: Actually Avocado is considered a HIGH PROTEIN FOOD--and would probably NOT be good to eat with ayahuasca!

In my experience..all that is nothing but myth..well intented though..even the native amazonians do not go by the MAOI interaction diet..they eat plantains the whole time!.. I dont worry about it, I eat light all day before anyway..and I dont eat dairy at all so it's probabily not so big a deal for me to avoid those foods anyway.. That is only the case for reversable MAOI's found it aya and rue...not the pharmaceutical MAOI's...


Most people who have actually drank aya a few times will tell you they dont have problems either..unless it involves interactions WITH OTHER DRUGS..like alcohol or caffine or nicotine, THC etc... They also drink san pedro tea following some aya ceremonies in peru, wich goes against the popular beliefs held of MAOI's..

 

[endlessness]

I have said this already in the nexus but..

I also think this whole MAOI and tyramine story is blown way out of proportion. Tyramine is a problem with irreversible MAOIs, but not really with MAO-A inhibiting harmalas, as infundibulum well said.

Now, this is not to say "go ahead and eat all the fatty industrialized tyramine-rich food you can find".. I think that when taking ayahuasca, one gets sensitive to everything, and one is constantly teached about becoming a better person, and healthier.. So, when one eats junk food before, during or after a trip, this is obviously contradicting the aim of becoming healthier, and this may cause one to have negative psychological and somatic symptoms during the trip. Some people may mistake this for some tyramine - MAOI interaction, but the way I see it, its more like the body saying "hey hey friend, I dont want this food now, give me some fruit juice instead" or whatever.

After participating in several rituals, both indigenous and from Santo Daime, I have noticed that, first of all, many people are unaware of anything related to eating contraindications, and yet there are seemingly no issues arising from their ignorance.. Also after some rituals people actually even serve food such as yoghurt and other things which I've seen contra-indicated in these extreme MAOI diets.. Also for example indigenous ayahuasca-related diet has nothing to do with tyramine content.

I think one should look at himself and his own eating habbits, and listen to his body, respect his intuition.. If one doesnt feel like eating such and such thing, then dont, but be open that other people may be fine with doing it themselves.

 

[SWIMfriend]

Infundibulum: I'm going by the wiki article, which describes "A" as the MAIN deactivator of tyramine--but also mentions that the "B" can also deactivate tyramine. As a simple medical fact, MAO-A inhibitors are and have been the object of "cheese worries."

To all the rest, it's lovely that you "believe" any risks are "over rated"....yet....you ALL (i.e., warrensaged and endlessness) seem to INEVITABLY ADD at the end of each sentence about over-rating cheese concerns some variation of "of course, nobody is suggesting you eat LOTS OF CHEESE when during an ayahuasca ceremony." To be precise:

warrensaged: "Most of us have read those same facts about MAOI's plenty of times & I'm thinking those of us who actually experience what we are talking about here on a regular basis, take enough care to not eat fondo"

warrensaged: "And I'm pretty sure we are intelligent enough to take the knowledge of those possible side effects into account if eating while, or right before drinking Ayahuasca, to avoid putting ourselves in any serious danger"

endlessness: "Now, this is not to say "go ahead and eat all the fatty industrialized tyramine-rich food you can find".. "

So I have to ask about this bizarre run of cognitive dissonance that permeates these posts. I have said "People should not eat cheese when they're taking ayahausca." AND THAT IS ALL I HAVE SAID (except to elaborate endlessly WHY I say that). The responses to that simple statement of not eating cheese have been "OH, the MAOI warnings are blown WAY out of proportion....JUST DON'T EAT CHEESE WHEN YOU TAKE AYAHUASCA!"

Apparently, people feel very emotional about this issue--and they resolve that emotional conflict by indeed DEMONSTRATING SOME CARE about what they eat, AND at the same time repeating to themselves that "MAOI issues are overrated." Well, if that sort of dissonance is a help for you....fine. But I'd like to suggest that kind of dissonance presented to someone naive about medical issues yet considering use of ayahuasca may be....confusing.


Another issue: Playing epidemiologist. It's one thing if you had seen numerous people in a row eat a species of mushroom and drop dead several hours later, for you to then go around telling people "That mushroom is poisonous." For that you don't need to be an epidemiologist--and you're providing a useful public health service by warning people away from that mushroom.

But when you see someone eat cheese and drink ayahuasca brew--and nothing happens, and you then tell people "MAOI issues regarding ayahuasca are overblown," THEN you are playing epidemiologist--and doing a bad job of it. As I said in a earlier post (which is common knowledge) episodes of very high blood pressure often pass UNNOTICED--which does NOT demonstrate that they don't happen, or are not dangerous.

If you wish to make statements about MAOI issues being overblown, you'll have to spend some considerable time with sphygmomanometer in hand, testing participants, compiling data, HANDING OUT CHEESE, and calculating statistical distributions before making that claim. To do otherwise is to dispute a well-understood physiological phenomenon based on..."I knew a guy once, who...".

If 100,000 people ate cheese and did ayahuasca and 100 people died--while another 100,000 people DIDN'T eat cheese, and only 1 died, then advice to avoid cheese while taking ayahuasca would be VERY USEFUL. It would be advice I'd want to have, and would follow. I go MANY days without eating cheese--so I'd have no trouble making an ayahuasca day one of those days.

But I would bet that you guys probably haven't seen ANYONE eat cheese and take ayahuasca. So, would you tell us, exactly, what is your BASIS for stating (over and over) that MAOI warnings about ayahuasca are "over stated??" (note: Oh, and when you tell us, just so issues of your dissonance don't embarrass you, I'll politely avoid any mention of how you ALWAYS ADD to the end of the sentence about over-rated warnings "just don't eat lots of cheese!")

 

[soulman]

Right, well tbh this has gone a little off topic. The purpose of the post was to discuss whether people who struggle to "voyage within" when drinkin aya...such as myself have, found any benifit in eatin somethin a while after ingestion.
So far no one has actally made a comment about this at all and it seems the discussion has turned to what and what not to eat!!!!

 

[SWIMfriend]

Actually, this is your thread and YOU were the first one to take it into the direction of "WHAT to eat" with your post #5, which is quoted below:

An interesting post i found whilst readin around the topic over on the aya forums........

"Eating definately seems to boost the experience. Someone mentioned yougurt is great for this, and I can second this. Also, yougurt contains pretty good amount of l-tyrosine, which is converted in brain to dopamine, which is the stimulating and feel-good neurotransmitter. Also current antipsychotics that dampen all kind of hallucinations block the effect of dopamine on brain."

 

[soulman]

Well i agree, but i asked for sugestions on what to eat and not essays and why you shouldnt eat cheese

 

[SWIMfriend]

Well i agree, but i asked for sugestions on what to eat and not essays and why you shouldnt eat cheese

This list of "suggestions" would be "anything not on the MAOI avoid list."

deoxy list

 

[soulman]

Ok cheers. I know of this list. I was tryna be more specific in respect to MAOI safe fatty foods, but it has also been reported that just eating bread or fruit can also induce a slow or no reaction or infact a "no show" then maybe i shall just try that. I think i shall start with some buttered toast as initially suggested....with a little bit of cheese on top hahahahah
Just fuckin with ya.
But seriously i appreciate your input and explanations.

 

[SWIMfriend]

Ok cheers. I know of this list. I was tryna be more specific in respect to MAOI safe fatty foods, but it has also been reported that just eating bread or fruit can also induce a slow or no reaction or infact a "no show" then maybe i shall just try that. I think i shall start with some buttered toast as initially suggested....with a little bit of cheese on top hahahahah
Just fuckin with ya.
But seriously i appreciate your input and explanations.

Thanks! I also think you should give a thought to what I said very early on: that the "eating effect" might relate to something as simple as food promoting the movement of ayahuasca ingredients to move out of the stomach and into the small intestine. It is known that people have had problems with gelatin caps and pharmahuasca, for example (and I know well how drastically dissolution of gelatin caps can vary, too, from taking nutritional supplements and feeling the effects--like a niacin flush--anywhere from 15 minutes to 2 hours later!).

Almost no drugs are absorbed substantially through the stomach (aspirin is an interesting exception). They have to reach the small intestine. If one has only drunk a liquid (or, for that matter, if one is feeling FEAR), the transfer of stomach contents to the small intestine can be greatly delayed. A small, relaxing meal may be just the thing to make sure your stomach contents move on.

Finally, an easy way to get fats without including any prohibited nutrients is by swallowing some omega 3 pills. Personally, these sorts of "soft gelatin" pills dissolve almost IMMEDIATELY for me (I can taste/smell fish, usually in less than 10 minutes), while the clear, hard gelatin capsules really can vary A LOT in how quickly they dissolve.

 

[soulman]

Nice one. The omega caps sound like a plan. I shall keep yall posted of any developments.
Cheers

 

[Infundibulum]

OK, SWIM got interested and he honestly wants to experience tyramine poisoning himself while on harmine/harmaline. He's after some acute effects, not long-term stuff. He's not afraid because he's done stupid, detrimental things to himself, he's fine.

What is the best way to achieve it? The furthest he's gone is with some 500mg harmine/harmaline combined with a whole piece of 1-foot long salami eaten 2 hours afterwards, combined with roughly 200g blue cheese spread on toasted and buttered slices of butter. Beer consumption was abundant as usually.

What else he needs too do? How can unambiguously find that reversible MAOI inhibitors in combination with tyramine foods are indeed bad for him? How could he assess any symptoms? He can measure his blood pressure/heart rate etc if necessary.

Any input highly appreciated!

 

[SWIMfriend]

OK, SWIM got interested and he honestly wants to experience tyramine poisoning himself while on harmine/harmaline. He's after some acute effects, not long-term stuff. He's not afraid because he's done stupid, detrimental things to himself, he's fine.

What is the best way to achieve it? The furthest he's gone is with some 500mg harmine/harmaline combined with a whole piece of 1-foot long salami eaten 2 hours afterwards, combined with roughly 200g blue cheese spread on toasted and buttered slices of butter. Beer consumption was abundant as usually.

What else he needs too do? How can unambiguously find that reversible MAOI inhibitors in combination with tyramine foods are indeed bad for him? How could he assess any symptoms? He can measure his blood pressure/heart rate etc if necessary.

Any input highly appreciated!

Nice! I'm outta here!

 

[Infundibulum]

hahahaha!!

But please do not think that SWIM tries to be sarcastic... On the contrary, he is actually very serious as to what he wrote on the above post! He thinks that trying to find the toxicity limits is a more realistic approach rather than drawing hypotheses from the literature and contemporary reports.

 

[MagikVenom]

OK, SWIM got interested and he honestly wants to experience tyramine poisoning himself while on harmine/harmaline. He's after some acute effects, not long-term stuff. He's not afraid because he's done stupid, detrimental things to himself, he's fine.

What is the best way to achieve it? The furthest he's gone is with some 500mg harmine/harmaline combined with a whole piece of 1-foot long salami eaten 2 hours afterwards, combined with roughly 200g blue cheese spread on toasted and buttered slices of butter. Beer consumption was abundant as usually.

What else he needs too do? How can unambiguously find that reversible MAOI inhibitors in combination with tyramine foods are indeed bad for him? How could he assess any symptoms? He can measure his blood pressure/heart rate etc if necessary.

Any input highly appreciated!

Not sure what the results of above would be for me but I will say this I have smoked large amounts of rue and rue extract wile drinking beer and eating catcus never more than a six pack and have never became ill.

I have not but I have seen people on SSRIs drink aya on many occasions and not become ill.

Do not try either of these they may be dangerous I am not a Dr and do not give medical advise.

I have been sick to my stomach before and if one did eat a salmi and a bunch of blue chese and did become ill out of both ends its sound like a hellish experance.

The data may be outdated but if you do research on this you will find exactly what S F is describing. So every one is correct again wich is not logical. but then again many aspects of dmt are not logical and seem to make little if any sense at all. This is also fascinating and is one reason for my continued intrest in the many strange occurances surrounding this substance. my 2 cents again.

M.V.

 

[endlessness]

SWIMfriend,

Read the wiki:

Moclobemide - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

quote:

No special diet is necessary, in contrast to irreversible MAOIs. Nevertheless, the patient should avoid excessive consumption of foods containing tyramine (e.g. cheddar cheese, fava beans, chianti wine) in order to avoid a rise in blood pressure.

and heres one study

http://www.springerlink.com/content/m5tkp4q3j1296437/

quote:

Neither tyramine capsules (50 mg) nor cheese and wine meals (65 mg tyramine) produced a significant change in blood pressure and heart rate after single or repeated doses of moclobemide in volunteers

and another:

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/120813005/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

quote:

In 2300 patients treated with moclobemide in doses up to 600 mg/day, without dietary restrictions, there was no tyramine-related hypertensive reaction.

moclobemide is also a reversible MAO-A inhibitor like harmalas

there are some people that seem to describe the harmala interactions with tyramine as deadly, and it seems to me that this is exagerated. The links I posted above seem to show that its not so much of a problem, but that one should still be careful. Life is not black and white, there are all shades in between. Its no cognitive dissonance to say that its not THAT much of a deal, and yet one should anyways still be reasonable and not exagerate. This is not only for the tyramine but also just like one shouldnt exagerate with several other things before/during/after a trip.

ive also pointed out that in certain branches of the santo daime where hundreds of people consume ayahuasca at a time, there is very little information about dietary restrictions, and yet there are no cases of serious problems popping up.

So when one has his own experience saying otherwise, plus some studies, plus having witnessed large amounts of people not caring about diets, its enough for me to have my own informed opinion about the subject. This doesnt mean you have to follow it too, but just showing how we're not just talking out of our asses here, excuse the expression.

Plus, if you look at the last thing I said in the other post, I said one should respect his own self, and being informed, decide what one wants to eat. So if you feel the need to be careful with your own diet or warn others in the internet, I am perfectly fine with it. But also accept that other people are just different and feel otherwise. I am also careful with my diet, but not because of tyramine, and neither just when taking ayahuasca. I feel I should ALWAYS eat as fresh, light and organic as possible, and its the same when im about to enter hyperspace

 

[WSaged]

Thanks Endlessness!

I went the other direction, I was searching the net for about an hour today trying pretty hard to find a single report about someone dieing, or even having serious health issues, particularly blood pressure issues related to food that were eaten, before, during, or after having taken Ayahuasca or S.Rue & was unable to find one.

Also, in 2 years of personally researching & experimenting with DMT+MAOI's & traditional Ayahuasca, I have yet to read anything of the sort in either "trip reports", or in the medical tests that have been done in reference to brain activity.
So I'm thinking I've got a pretty informed opinion about the subject myself, regardless of an hour on the search engines today.

But like you said endlessness, everybody has their own level of what their are comfortable with calling fact.
From where I stand though, books don't always tell you everything, some things you need to experience for yourself to truly get the variables that go with it.
I think DMT & Ayahuasca remind me of that fact every time I unite with them!!! In spades!!

Cognitive dissonance has nothing to do with it, I used to worry about it & it took me quite a while to get up the nerve to take Ayahuasca because of all the dietary concerns I read about. Eventually I did try it & was not always so careful with the dietary concerns after a number of experiences the dietary concerns became less of an issue until I realized it was hooey & I also started reading other people saying they were experiencing same thing over & over.
So I stopped worrying about it all together.

WS

 

[jamie]

ok so on topic...yes, I find that with ayahuasca and mushrooms especially I can boost my trip or kick-start it by eating something fatty..coconut milk works well, and isnt very acidic so wont bother the stomach too much while tripping.