This is what happens when you combine an Irreversible MAOI with MDMA

[dreamer042]

Dreamer042 wrote:

"Another short acting natural SSRI worth looking into is an old favorite of this forum that is near and dear to all our hearts, our very own THH (Tetrahydroharmine). There is a lack of information on exactly how effective THH is as an SSRI, but from what I can tell it should be effective enough for our purposes, and it has a fairly short half life, making it a great candidate. Now that we have a good conversion tek on the forum, this is certainly an area worthy of further research."

This made me think of a couple of things, firstly, where can I fimd this conversion tek? I looked in the harmala section and the wiki but there only seems to be discussion of various methods, not a solid tek for the process.

Secondly, assuming the conversion is not 100% perfect, wouldn't the presence of unconverted harmaline be a risk?

Not planning to try any mdma combos anyway, hardly take it anymore, few times a year at most, but I would like to convert some rue extract to thh as it just doesnt have that caapi magic.

It's not necesarrily a tek and does need a bit of followup to find the best technique to separate the zinc, but I was referring to this thread. The analysis demonstratess there was no harmaline left after the conversion. There were traces of harmine left from imperfect separation, though I suspect there wasn't enough to be too concerned about.

 

[ijahdan]

Thanks Dreamer, I'll re-read that thread and see if I can get my head round the process.

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

Synthetic drugs are not "bad", this is a fallacy.

The notion the a compound can be "good" or "bad" is a fallacy, the compound is inanimate.

However this is no reason to dismiss synthetic compounds, or classify them as "bad"
-eg

I understand what you're getting at, but the unfortunate truth is that your average MDMA user hasn't a clue what he/she is ingesting. They may believe it to be pure LSD, or pure MDMA, but they don't know. Synthetic drugs have a great potential to be very bad. There have been many fatal overdoses of people using LSD, when in fact, unbeknownst to them, it was 25I or one the DOx. 5 tabs of LSD and 5 tabs of 25I are very different things. I personally will be steering far away from anything that isn't a plant, made by me or tested for purity.

Hmmm...

The spread of analogue research chemicals has complicated things, no doubt, and when you have a plant you are certain of what you have, and need not worry about unknown compounds or adulterants, these are all benefits and I can understand your position...

Though I don't agree that most users are uneducated.

I was simply trying to point out that the notion that a "plant means it's safe and a synthetic product means it's dangerous" it's a fallacy. There are very dangerous plants and very safe synthetic compounds.

regardless, all compounds, plant derived or synthetic must be taken with the same responsibility, education and care.

Again, I probably did not need to say any of this, I just frequently encounter these mis-held beliefs that plants are safe and chemicals are dangerous, when this is in no way the actual case.

I think I'm getting too far off topic though, and I feel we likely understand each other, so I'm comfortable just leaving it at that.

-eg

 

[Dogbark]

Hordenine is a fairly well studied MAO-B Inhibitor that accours in many plants:

Hordenine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Unfortunately the plants that contain hordenine also contain other phenethylamines which could be dangerous. Fortunately the 99% pure HCL salt can be found online as a supplement for bodybuilding.

I believe that peyote and san Pedro contain hordenine. We all know about the phenethylamines they contain, but i don't think there's a real risk there.

Ok i stand corrected not all plants that contain hordenine are dangerous but some definitely seem to be dangerous.

I personally would prefer the 99% pure hordenine over a plant source.

Btw i found an interesting article about phenethylamines in plants

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

Mao-b inhibitor...

What are the desired effects from 4-hydroxy-N,N-dimethyl-phenethylamine?

I have heard of people consuming it intentionally, either as a supplement or some type of CNS stimulant, and I'm sure I consume it in my cacti decoctions, but for whatever reason assumed it was uninteresting and never really researched it...

Are tyramine and hordenine worth investigation or intentional ingestion?

I brew cacti with harmala seeds....The "MAOI diet" cautions against consuming tyramine with an MAOI due to physical complications, however they may be referring to MAOI compounds which are not reversible, and inhibit monoamine oxidase for extended periods, in which case tyramine build up could be a concern...however with harmine, harmaline, and tetrahydroharmine in combination with phenethylamine containing cacti, this appears to be a non-issue...

-eg

 

[WisdomTooth]

Great Information!

Curious.. Would smoking changa or DMT while on MDMA be of anything to worry about?
I notice when i smoke some cannabis while on MDMA it brings it out much more and you feel it better.

Obviously i am aware there are slight dangers to mixing anything together but i grew up in a rough neighborhood with my friends and as we were young and ignorant we mixed everything weekly M, Weed, Alcohol, Pills, you name it the teenage party life at the time and nothing ever happened to us but a really bad hangover at worst.

Nowadays it seems the ones that continued to smoke cannabis are better then the ones that left it out completely but all are alive and well especially the ones that found their love, love heals everything.

However with pharmaceutical drugs there have been some dangerous times when mixed with especially alcohol.My mother almost died cause she was taking SSRI's for years and had a fight with her boyfriend and shot down some whiskey.

Lucky i got her off them because they were changing her into a different person. She went from a nice, compassionate lady to a angry, crazy mood-swinging bitch lol. All because of those pills.

Sorry going bit off topic but great stuff guys, keep it up.

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

Great Information!

Curious.. Would smoking changa or DMT while on MDMA be of anything to worry about?
I notice when i smoke some cannabis while on MDMA it brings it out much more and you feel it better.

Obviously i am aware there are slight dangers to mixing anything together but i grew up in a rough neighborhood with my friends and as we were young and ignorant we mixed everything weekly M, Weed, Alcohol, Pills, you name it the teenage party life at the time and nothing ever happened to us but a really bad hangover at worst.

Nowadays it seems the ones that continued to smoke cannabis are better then the ones that left it out completely but all are alive and well especially the ones that found their love, love heals everything.

However with pharmaceutical drugs there have been some dangerous times when mixed with especially alcohol.My mother almost died cause she was taking SSRI's for years and had a fight with her boyfriend and shot down some whiskey.

Lucky i got her off them because they were changing her into a different person. She went from a nice, compassionate lady to a angry, crazy mood-swinging bitch lol. All because of those pills.

Sorry going bit off topic but great stuff guys, keep it up.

As for changa and MDMA, Most will warn against mixing amphetamines with mono-amine-oxidase inhibitors, as this could result in a hypertensive crisis, serotonin syndrome, or other dangerous complications.

As for the cannabis, THC is not an amine, and thus is not affected by mono-amine-oxidase, the pleasant effects of this combination are a result of dual intoxication rather than synergistic pharmocology...

-eg

 

[PH0Man]

I think I'm getting too far off topic though, and I feel we likely understand each other, so I'm comfortable just leaving it at that.
-eg

I can agree

Though I'd have to say, in my experience, (I'm guessing) 95% of users know absolutely nothing about the drugs theyr're ingesting, especillay MDMA (which is used mostly by 18-25 year olds at nightclubs). There's a dangerous level of ignorance out there; most people trying these drugs probably don't really care so much if it's a bit neurotoxic, and certainly know next to nothing about drug interactions...just the other day I stopped someone from mixng Syrian Rue and MDMA. For the sake of the masses, a slight fear of chemical drugs is probably healthy

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

...combinations of psychoactive compounds can be good, bad, or neutral, it's your responsibility as a drug consumer to be aware of any potential drug interactions that may occur, it's your responsibility to know your compounds, and to know what compounds can and can not be safely consumed together.

Most will describe drug combinations as irresponsible mixing of compounds haphazardly and without thought, and while a small group of individuals may participate in such activities, there are those out there who safely and benneficially combine substances, there are those out there who understand pharmocological interactions and may be using compounds in combination in a responsible and calculated manner.

-eg

 

[Dogbark]

Mao-b inhibitor...

What are the desired effects from 4-hydroxy-N,N-dimethyl-phenethylamine?

I have heard of people consuming it intentionally, either as a supplement or some type of CNS stimulant, and I'm sure I consume it in my cacti decoctions, but for whatever reason assumed it was uninteresting and never really researched it...

I saw other people in this thread looking for MAO-B inhibitors and thought hordenine might be helpful for them.

Are tyramine and hordenine worth investigation or intentional ingestion?

I dont know the exact benefits of ingesting hordenine. I know some people use it combination with PEA to achieve some kind of amphetamine like high

I brew cacti with harmala seeds....The "MAOI diet" cautions against consuming tyramine with an MAOI due to physical complications, however they may be referring to MAOI compounds which are not reversible, and inhibit monoamine oxidase for extended periods, in which case tyramine build up could be a concern...however with harmine, harmaline, and tetrahydroharmine in combination with phenethylamine containing cacti, this appears to be a non-issue...

-eg

The risk is much lower as far as i know. When combining harmalas with mesc cactee id be more worried about high blood pressure

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

Phenylephrine, CH, OH, OH, β,3-dihydroxy-N-methylphenethylamine is a synthetic over the counter phenethylamine decongestant, though it closely resembles some of the cacti compounds being discussed here, it's basically tyramine only with a methyl grouping off the amine nitrogen and a hydroxy grouping off the beta carbon of the ethyl side chain, and the 4 hydroxy grouping has been moved to position 3 or its basically N-methyl-tyramine only the 4 hydroxy grouping has been moved to position 3, and an additional hydroxy grouping is connected to the beta carbon of the ethyl side chain...

It makes me wonder how many other of these obscure phenethylamine compounds have legitimate medical applications.

I wonder if tyramine was able to cross the blood brain barrier if it would be psychoactive? a stimulant maybe?

-eg

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

I think I'm getting too far off topic though, and I feel we likely understand each other, so I'm comfortable just leaving it at that.
-eg

I can agree

Though I'd have to say, in my experience, (I'm guessing) 95% of users know absolutely nothing about the drugs theyr're ingesting, especillay MDMA (which is used mostly by 18-25 year olds at nightclubs). There's a dangerous level of ignorance out there; most people trying these drugs probably don't really care so much if it's a bit neurotoxic, and certainly know next to nothing about drug interactions...just the other day I stopped someone from mixng Syrian Rue and MDMA. For the sake of the masses, a slight fear of chemical drugs is probably healthy

I'd say for the sake of the masses a slight fear of ignorance would be healthier.

There's really no difference between plant derived psychoactives and synthetic psychoactives, both must be consumed with the same degree of care and mindfulness, and in both cases you must be knowledgeable regarding drug interactions.

In my experience, though this may just be related to the type of people I associate with, the people using these compounds are highly educated regarding their chemistry, their pharmocological properties (including drug interactions), and their safe and responsible use. Even those that are not as knowledgeable are still aware of the basics regarding their compound, and even the basics regarding analogues being sold as their compound, tests kits are common place at festivals these days, because these people are not irresponsible and ignorant slack-jaw belly-gazers who will eat any random substance offered to them, I mean everybody wants to have a good time, but nobody wants to get hurt or worse yet lose their life...

In my experience in the psychedelic community and even in the MDMA community, I meet more well educated and responsible consumers than in other psychoactive scene, test kits and knowing analogue compounds as well as the properties of whatever compound it is that they are into is the norm, I also know people who distribute these compounds who are fairly selective about who they give them to, and if a person seems irresponsible or ignorant they won't distribute to them, there's plenty of knowledgeable people who want these things...

...but then again, I guess it just depends on who you're around...

-eg

 

[PH0Man]

...but then again, I guess it just depends on who you're around...

-eg

Yes, indeed. I'd venture to guess age is a more important factor.

 

[DreaMTripper]

Interesting that Hordenine is "the N-methyl derivative of N-methyltyramine, and the N,N-dimethyl derivative of the well-known biogenic amine tyramine", so a MAO-B, yet tyramine is considered dangerous for that very type of MAO..
As far as enhancing the effects of MDMA goes personally I had great results with piracetam taken shortly before I took the MDMA, made it a very clean and clear high. Piracetam and 5htp taken the next day eliminated any negative come down effects.
I take a rhodiola tincture and even with caffeine and nicotine had some uncomfortable over stimulation afterwards so the thought of an amphetamine and a potent MAO mixture sounds absolutely hideous at the very least..

 

[Aum_Shanti]

Sorry didn't want to intentionally bump, But I'm currently just surfing the Nexus...

IMHO Hordenine would be a very bad substance for MAO-B inhibition against MDMA neurotoxicity.

Why?
The MAO-B inhibition effect is very short lasting (from personal experience), maybe around 30mins, which would way not be long enough for being effective against MDMA toxicity.

Additionally I saw that one source once claimed (don't know source anymore) that Hordenine doesn't cross the blood brain barrier. If this is really the case, then Hordenine is completely useless for MDMA toxicity protection.

But I'm really wondering if the SSRI effects of THH would be strong enough for protection and how much would be needed for that.

 

[dreamer042]

Sorry didn't want to intentionally bump, But I'm currently just surfing the Nexus...

IMHO Hordenine would be a very bad substance for MAO-B inhibition against MDMA neurotoxicity.

Why?
The MAO-B inhibition effect is very short lasting (from personal experience), maybe around 30mins, which would way not be long enough for being effective against MDMA toxicity.

Additionally I saw that one source once claimed (don't know source anymore) that Hordenine doesn't cross the blood brain barrier. If this is really the case, then Hordenine is completely useless for MDMA toxicity protection.

But I'm really wondering if the SSRI effects of THH would be strong enough for protection and how much would be needed for that.

Good points!

I found a handy reference that breaks down the information on hordenine really well. You are right about the short action, only a 24 minute half-life in horses, but multiply that out by several half lives, and it's got a good few hours of action which should be sufficient for our purposes. It looks ideal in many respects because it's highly selective for MAO-B and reversible just like harmine/harmaline is for MAO-A. It also appears it does cross the BBB, at least according to that reference above.

I do see that it's both a releaser and reuptake inhibitor for norepinephrine and that could very much be a deal breaker. With that combination effect + MDMA it's highly possible it could lead to build up too much noradergenic neurotransmitters at the synapse and lead to dangerous situations. My honest opinion is that it would be better to stay away from MAO inhibitors with MDMA, and stick with an SSRI as that's all around the better (and perhaps somewhat safer) choice.

THH is still much untread territory and I'm not sure how much research can be done on it's serotonin reuptake inhibition properties and it's effect on cellular neurotoxicity outside of a well equipped laboratory. To all you neurochemistry researchers looking at grad schools out there, this would be an excellent topic for a research thesis. We do have a few breadcrumbs to go on for the lay researcher however. It appears that THH is an effective SSRI in the doses it's taken in ayahuasca brews so that would be good a starting point for determining dosage within this context. As for measuring neurotoxicity effects, the best one could do would be to case study it against known SSRI's like prozac and kanna and compare hangover/aftereffects/etc... Not very scientific really, but a starting point anyway.

It looks like the groupmind here at Nexus has really nailed down this THH conversion thing since this post was originally made, so starting this kind of research is becoming highly feasible.

 

[Aum_Shanti]

but multiply that out by several half lives, and it's got a good few hours of action which should be sufficient for our purposes.

As said my personal experience is different in this relation. E.g. the activation of PEA only happens in a very small time window when taking Hordenine.
Well it could well be that one then would just have to take more, as probably just after one half live complete inhibition levels are not attained anymore with "usual" doses. But Hordenine in higher dosages is not very nice on the body...as already in inhibiting dosages it is quite pushy (feels kinda like a coffee overdose).
Maybe that coffee effect is what you described above as norepinephrine effect of Hordenine. It really doesn't sound good to take much of such a pushy substance together with an amphetamine...

But I'm with you, the SSRI way would probably be the better option.
The only problem (as with the MAOI-B), where to get one? All commercial drugs are only available on prescription, and we have yet to find a known good natural SSRI lasting long enough. Maybe THH would be a solution, but as you said, research is lacking...

It's really kind of a pity: There's basically 2 "known" ways to eradicate the neurotoxicity of MDMA but people cannot get them...

But honestly it also would only be something for the ones knowing what they do, as the timing is absolutely crucial.

 

[dreamer042]

But I'm with you, the SSRI way would probably be the better option.
The only problem (as with the MAOI-B), where to get one?

Kanna is incredibly easy to grow and afaik is uncontrolled in every country in the world. I take it as a tea with a bit of licorice root (for flavor) on my come down every time I take MDMA. :thumb_up:

 

[Aum_Shanti]

Thanks, but as I interpret what you said before, not too much research has flown into Kanna SSRIs, or was that a misinterpretation of mine.

I'm just wondering if it would be effective for MDMA. As the main study certainly was done on Prozac which is a really strong and long lasting inhibitor.

But IMHO it can certainly not hurt. Will definitely try to extend my garden with it...

Edit: Just went through some papers about Kanna. Quite interesting plant. Seems like the felt effects are actually mainly due to being a monoamine release agent than through SSRI activity (although it is an SSRI). It is also a mild MAOI-A.

E.g. I found this paper interesting:

High-mesembrine Sceletium extract(Trimesemine™) is a monoamine releasing agent,rather than only a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

Additionally I saw that one source once claimed (don't know source anymore) that Hordenine doesn't cross the blood brain barrier. If this is really the case, then Hordenine is completely useless for MDMA toxicity protection

Hordenine is a mild short acting CNS stimulant in man that causes a release of norepinephrine. It’s also a highly selective substrate of MAO-B and acts as a temporary reversible MAO-B inhibitor. Because hordenine crosses the blood brain barrier it is able to inhibit MAO-B enzymes in both the body and brain

Hordenine - HerbPedia

herbpedia.wikidot.com

-eg