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Thoughts on the Backfiring of Harm Reduction

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Pandora

Pandora

Spice Momma
Donator
Senior Member
Welcoming committee Senior member
Some of My Recent Thoughts on Harm Reduction:


There is a lot of lip service given to the concept of harm reduction here at the Nexus,
which I honestly believe is a laudable, desirable and highly achievable goal.

And yet, I wonder, sometimes . . . . . have we lost our way? Maybe the line in the Attitude
link that says "It's easy to be humble" is incorrect? Especially for older (both time
as Nexus member and chronological age) members? Especially for moderators? Particularly for myself?

Let me expand on this using generalities. I am NOT pointing any specific fingers here, though
I confess specific incidences in the recent past are coming to my mind as I write this.
Including, admittedly, incidences that I participated in.

There are some trends I have noticed at Nexus that from my perspective are TOXIC but get
filed under the heading of "Harm Reduction." To me, this creates a huge potential to do
much more harm than good. To potentiate harm, not reduce it.

How is this accomplished? To summarize - by displaying flippant and superior attitudes,
by dismissing summarily, by mocking and using potentials for harm reduction as
opportunities for a laugh or to score a personal (sadistic) point simply because we
have seen it all or are old or burned out or our wife/husband is a bitch/bastard or WHATEVER -
it is all equally illegimitimate to file under the heading of "Harm Reduction." And it
does more harm than good with youth. And I'm getting really tired of it, even though I
personally am far from immune from these behaviors and attitudes.

Have we forgotten what it was like to be so young? We knew everything back then! We were
immortal, woke up with energy and strength, horny and had brass balls/ovaries.
We were sick of older people telling us a bunch of BS "for our own good." We were fragile.
Every day was a drama, a trauma and a crisis. Our feelings were easily hurt. We felt
alienated much of the time. Being mocked by someone smarter and older than us in a way
that scores a point for the "mature" person but leaves us (youth) humiliated made us
feel violent, NOT cooperative.

(Before going any further, I just want to say that what happened with the Martin Ball(saq)
thread was 100% legit. In fact, there was NOT enough mocking, etc. He brought that on himself and
he is anything but young and inexperienced.)

I could probably write all day, developing a bunch of excruciating examples, but I think
I'll limit this initial submission to two:


Example I

A very young person joins the Nursery and posts something really stupid and
that clearly violates Forum rules. Now, as far as I can tell, when this happens, the
person gets a warning, with a quote of appropriate rules/bylaws or gets summarily banned
usually with the person in power making a joke or ascerbic remark.
Just about no one (unless someone like myself makes a real STINK about, which is ridiculous)
is asked what their side of the story is, is asked to clarify to make sure we understood
correctly, is worked with in an attempt to increase education and harm reduction.

The reason given is usually, "We must protect the integrity of the Nexus." Excellent reason and the
Nursery as it is currently set up and administered, helps to accomplish this very nicely.

A young person has come to our community and done something stupid or said something stupid.
Instead of treating this as a tremendous opportunity to do good, to help, to educate to
reduce harm, we say, "Get lost! We don't want the likes of YOU here!"

I would suggest that maybe keeping these foolish folks as intact Nursery members for
awhile longer might make sense. Or, alternatively, I know there are moderator sections
to Nexus that are not visible to us members. Why not create a Harm Reduction section
that is not visible to regular members or Nursery members? If someone is on the edge
for banning but a great potential for harm reduction perhaps they could be moved there. Perhaps
moderators (who give a damn) and even key senior members could also be allowed to work in
this Harm Reduction area with these new members at risk and on the Nexus edge.

I know a lot of work and time would be expended and for every 500 that say fuck you I'm outta
here, we might get one we reach who thanks us (or not) and then rejoins the regular Nexus
community and in the long run helps to spread harm reduction. If we can expect this level of
return I believe it is more than worth it. I'm not a mod or really a senior member, but
I am an older (chronological age) person. I would volunteer to work in this Harm Reduction
area if permitted to see/enter it. I would check every day. I suspect there are others
who feel like I do. For all my vehemence and passion, mostly I feel very quiet and calm,
and I feel I have infinite patience and I love questions and don't mind repetition too much.


And now for one more example, but this one is the other side of the coin:

Example II

An experienced, older member, often in chat, sometimes in Forum, and even sometimes, in
person (more Nexians are meeting these days) counsels/advises a younger person and by
doing so creates a tremendous Harm Potentiation situation.

For example, a young person who clearly states they have trauma or family issues is
interested in psychedelics. My first impulse is to counsel said young person to do a lot
of work while sober on the trauma and family stuff first. Also, to dose very, very low
because psychedelics can bring that material right to the front of the mind and slam you with
it for eternity-time.

But, I know I must temper that with respect. Not only is this person a young a adult in
the eyes of the law, but they are probably higher functioning than myself currently
and are definately the best judge of what's right for them and what the timing should be.
But, to make that judgement, they often seek information/data/opinions. This is where
I and others come in.

So, if I act superior and all knowing or if I make a fatal error of projecting my own stuff,
stuff from my own youth and traumata onto that younger person inappropriately I can do much
more harm than good. This is delicate work. And we aren't even professionals (not that
I think they could do any better, frankly).

There is another way people like me can do more harm than good and that is by encouraging
so-called "heroic dosing."

Heroic dosing is the stupidest term I have ever encountered short of military intelligence!
I mean, seriously!

The chances of having a really bad experience, of becoming delusional of becoming severely
dissociated (even on a regular psychedelic) increase with higher doses. The chances
for unintentional injury, risk, death, rapes and incarceration also increase. IT is just that
simple.

So, a young person coming out of a DMT trip shaking and being told to SMOALK MOAR! I'm
really not sure that's such a good idea. But apparently it works for some. A young person
dealing with a lot of stuff and being told to take huge LSD, 2CB, MXE, DOM or other doses
makes no sense at all to me. It is not worth the risk.

I had a horror trip at age 20 coming off of violent family deaths. That is my trip, no one
else's. But, it scared me away from psychedelics for 20 years. If this could happen to
me it can happen to others. It is worth doing what we can to prevent this from happening,
whenever possible. ALWAYS work to decrease suffering and increase education and you will
accomplish harm reduction smoothly.

What's the other side of this? Young person takes that HUGE dose from you and has the BEST
trip of their life. Time for them to trip again in the future. Guess what, you're not
around or cannot supply them. So, they seek from the wider world. Hell, they know it's good!
They took a heroic dose with you, right? So, batch untested, why not heroic dose with this
right here, right now?



I sincerely hope folks see my points here. Sometimes I can be hyperbolic,indirect, crazy
or just plain difficult to understand.

I am deeply concerned that many of us who sing the song of "Harm Reduction" create harm
potentiation just by going about our regular, normal activities here at Nexus. There's
got to be a better way.

Peace and Love
 
I like the idea of going with the people, instead of just saying, that we don't like that sort of behavior here.
Maybe we should open a new section:
Help people with psychological/maturity issues.
And as long as they are interested in sanity, they can be helped -
otherwise they should just be banned IMO.

If we do it like this, we can do both: Help people grow up + keeping the jerks away!

KYrO
 
Thanks kyro,

Reminds me I meant to mention general "trolls," people clearly loosing all grip on sanity
("F**k DMT" ) as well as Martin Ball(saq) are frankly, either not worth the time or
sadly, unreachable. And thus, I do not class these folks with the others that
I am discussing in the above essay.
 
In reviewing my memory I come across an example where I am guilty:

A new member appeared in the Nursery awhile back - I cannot remember his name.

Basically his post equated to, "How can I best get fucked up on DMT."

I immediately got on and replied something like, "Those who seek to get fucked up from DMT usually do so, as well as fucked over and just plain fucked. Then some return to create posts with headings that say things like Fuck DMT! Yo' askin' fo' it boy!"

Others replied in a similar manner, many nicer than myself.

And that was the last I looked at or thought about that thread.

Until today.

Wow, I thought I was so clever in that moment, so funny and smart too to refer to a previous incident.

Yet, today, I find myself wondering: Whatever happened to that young person? I hope he's okay. Hope he didn't do DMT once and get scared away for life. Hope he isn't walking around feeling isolated and confused and at a loss to find reliable and trustworthy information from folks who understand him.

Many would say he isn't worth a damn. I say he is. I say he is the future, not only of our consensual reality community but also the Nexus. And yet, how did I choose to act when the moment presented itself? Like an ass. Clearly harm reduction takes work and mindfulness. I have a lot of work and a lot of unlearning to do.

Peace & Love
 
My most sincere gratitude for creating this thread. I think you made your points rather masterfully, and it was in fact these very reasons that I was so happy to join this forum, and then, so quickly, to be allowed to post, because after reading many of the stickies and notices (most of them by The Traveler, what can I say? He should be called The Sage) I actually do feel proud to be a part of a forum like this. As I mentioned in my intro essay, this is the first forum that I've come to where such a -conscious- effort is made to do some real good in the way people think and feel towards these substances (ways of thinking and feeling that I have no doubt will reverberate through the other aspects of our lives). Now I'm not very happy saying that one way of thinking is better than another, but I think we can all agree that issues of ego often lead us to more trouble than good.

As for the issue of guilt, I don't think that there are many people who can honestly say they haven't let their itching, superior fingers do the talking when perhaps a little humility would have gone a lot farther. Not to suggest that it's okay because we're all guilty, but just that as long as we can openly, rationally analyse the seemingly undesirable motivations that cause such posts, then we can really create the kind of utopia that I'm sure the child / hippy idealist within us all is yearning for.

Lastly, you were spot on, about youth. I was just talking to a friend of mine recently about this very topic (haha, him and I, not yet twenty but already shaking our heads with soft, humorous smiles at our past, how much we have to learn!), and we both remarked on what a truly epic shame it is that we are already starting to forget what it was like to feel totally isolated and alienated by what can generally be attributed to our amount of years around the sun. We spoke of the strange acknowledgement that all of those teachers and parents that we'd argued with throughout the years, had so often been right. And how, if only they'd approached us with a different attitude, one that exuded understanding empathy, rather than condescending apathy, we could have perhaps benefited, rather than disconnected, from their experience.

Spot on, Pandora. Kudos!
 
Very nice posts Pandora, I like how you use yourself as an example and are open to look at your own faults and responsibility in creating the atmosphere we desire in this forum :) This is a perfect example of relevant and reasonable feedback and constructive criticism, which is essential to keep this forum flourishing.

I very much agree about the need to self-observe. I think its a continous process, because every step we take in self-development needs to be accompanied with a step in becoming aware of our ego and superiority attitudes, which will use our advances as food for their unsustainable growth.

Your thread serves as a reminder to myself to keep trying to really reflect if my posts are honestly serving others or if they are more like venting or blind reaction from my part.

Another Rube, very nice post from you too :)
 
Yeah, i can agree with this. But if you want me to care about a person and not merely 'keeping my hands clean', this care should not be a one-way flow, it should be a mutual thing.

If i have a hard time distinguishing whether someone is simply being a troll or has a genuine interest in getting fucked-up in a suicidal manner, i feel there is no such mutuality in the communication to begin with. Even with the possibility that this could be a person in dire need of help.

And there have been some serious wacko's passing by with something of a jesus or lizard-king complex. As long as someone is trying to be an intruiger, i want to keep my hands clean. For friendly people i'm willing to get my hands dirty.
 
I have to say, Pandora, that somehow I knew when I woke up this morning that this post was on its way. I'm aware that the bulk of your tsk tsk tsk'ing is focused squarely in my direction, and I'm aware as well that you think I'm an ass; you've been pretty clear on this point. This is A-OK. I'm not all that fragile. You are welcome to dislike me. But you rant and rave about "abuses of power", and to be honest, I'm not all that powerful. I'm one of a handful of moderators for a tiny internet message board - a function that I was asked to serve and (for the most part) have actually enjoyed.

I'm not really of the opinion that we are here to aid in the evolution of every wayward nincompoop. What makes this place great (in my opinion) is the level of discourse that (much of the time) exists here (as compared to elsewhere). But in any community with open enrollment, some knuckleheads get through the door - and the more of them that worm their way in, the more deleterious the overall effect. You may call this point of view elitist (and I suppose it probably is), but I just don't share your desire to play to the lowest common denominator - in hopes of turning dogshit to diamonds and catepillars into butterflies.

It's true that I was a dick in response to a recent nonsensical poster. And it's possibly true that harm reduction was not all that drove my reaction. The truth is likely that I am a smartass and he was an easy target. Along with a dangerous message (which had no basis in experience or reality), his several posts (IMO) just oozed with inauthenticity - and again, (for me) what makes this place great is the courage with which so many here lay it out in authentic fashion. When people don't, I think it's not inappropriate to call them out on it - and to be completely, 100% honest here... you were (in your own inimitably passive aggressive fashion) doing the exact same thing that I was.

For the most part, I think that when I chime in with negative or nasty comments, it is generally in response to one of the following kinds of issues: 1) people looking to profit financially, 2) people giving irresponsible medical or psychological advice, 3) people telling wild stories of ridiculous doses, lethal combos and other dangerous behaviors (either bona fide or more often clearly embellished for the sake of effect), 4) people pushing subjective beliefs as some kind of objective gospel, and 5) people posting in what feels to me like an egregiously inauthentic manner. Am I nice about it? Usually not. Could I be? Probably so. But I do feel a responsibility to keep this place safe for those not full of shit, and I have zero compunction in bouncing out those who are (when approved by the other mods). To boot, I am (as I've admitted) a smartass and always have been. But I hear your concerns and will try to reign in my need to be a dick.

To all I've offended along the way, Pandora is available for grief counseling. And if enough people here don't care for my style and prefer that I no longer moderate, I'm happy to give up my powerful post. I guess Traveler can let me know.
 
lol, Some pretty good points, the best in my opinion, that last one. Pandora is available for grief counseling. I mean, seriously, this community could easily still function, and serve it's purposes with sitters of both sides of the fence, hell, even sitters of other sides, of other fences. In the end, with D'lay's harsh (of necessity, I hope, lol) style of wordspin and the other supportive and more soft edged approach of, (gosh, I hate to bipolarise the discussion, but $$$$ it, it's convenient) Pandora, maybe the filter that is The Nursery will actually be perfectly effective. You've got the serious, straight forward no bullshit slap in the anecdotal face for those of which who, many of us agree, are in need of it, and the caring, understanding approach that a few of the idealists aren't happy to not have represented (within the DMT-Nexus).

Though now I must say, I feel like I'm overstepping my boundaries, like a fresh eager priest feels trying eagerly to improve his church by criticizing the highest cardinals of the holy city.

(lol, that's right, I just analogized the DMT-Nexus to religion)
Opinions?
 
I must say i'm more on art's side, regarding this issue.
I don't think it's mean or negative at all to respond negatively to people with a negative imput. If someone comes up with a realy bad idea, purely out of naïveness it's a different thing and it's always preferable to just say so in a nice way. If someone is boasting about behaving irresponsably or tries to play the intruiger in some other way (and i think that this definately was the case with a certain individual) then i don't see the use of avoiding to step on the persons toes at all costs.
 
Okay Uncle Knucles,

I was wondering what your $2,000.00 would be. LOL!

Yeah, I thought of you among others when writing this, it's true. Hard not to, frankly. Certainly, for Example I.

Seriously, though, this is so much bigger than you. It is so much more than you. I listed only a singular example for myself. If you had been watching me in chat these past couple of months you could have come up with two dozen, easily. This is so much more than me.

You cannot stop it. You cannot stop the hoi polloi from coming in and ruining YOUR neighborhood. The growth in the past 18 months in pure number of members has been exponential, or so it seems. Under 2500 when I joined, close to 10,000 today. I can only imagine what you have witnessed. Okay, maybe you (err, Traveler) could. By stopping all new memberships, period.

Why not be elitist in terms of holding the line on requiring extraordinary proof/references for extraordinary claims? Why not be elitist in terms of superior yield, superior safety, superior environmental teks? Why not be elitist in terms of holding a very strong line on saying it's never okay to sell, always better to extract, never discuss prices or syntheses techniques? Ah, that's right, we already do. I love it here. This place is addicting because of the above kind of elitism. Yep, I'm an elitist in my preference for elitism.

I cannot save the world. I don't want to start the revolution. I don't want to kill The Man. I don't want to burn it all down. I want to help people, one person at a time. I want to try to grow and become a better person even if that means being called out by Uncle Knucles himself. Passive aggressive, LOL! That Dopesick Datura guy is a very interesting character, as I have learned in chat. I was trying to treat a youth with kid gloves so to speak. That thread rapidly exploded and I gave up. Then at first (later funny cartoons were inserted) instead of joking or whatever, Traveler (huzzah!) comes up with a legit warning. That's what that was about, including the side remark towards you.

This post and these rants is about so much more than that one thread, so much more than one member, one n00b, one troll, one mod. This is something that has been going on for awhile. This is something that I have been participating actively in, much to the detriment of harm reduction. I hope to shine a BRIGHT light on this for ALL to see.

I do believe in people and trying to help one person at a time, by making conscientious interventions aimed at attempting to lessen suffering and/or increase education (if they conflict pursue the best goal for the long term - encourage the kid to finish school, even if he hates it). Even those I perceive as lowest common denominator. Seriously, I am poor - my appearance, health, neighborhood crime rate, rent controlled ghetto apartment official power and phone discounts and many other factors confirm this. I ain't proud. I know what it is to be viewed and treated as lowest common denominator. I know what it is to be pissed the fuck off. These are the people that I DO believe in. I see and interact with them everyday. Here and on the street. ouro said without hope we have only despair. My hope is for the future, even if it takes longer than my life to achieve something good.

<<End Rant>>

Peace
 
Another Rube said:
this community could easily still function, and serve it's purposes with sitters of both sides of the fence, hell, even sitters of other sides, of other fences. In the end, with D'lay's harsh style of wordspin and the other supportive and more soft edged approach of Pandora, maybe the filter that is The Nursery will actually be perfectly effective.
Click to expand...

I agree with what Another Rube said here. I agree more with Pandora's views about compassionate treatment, But I also feel that some individuals need to be b!t*h slapped for their arrogance/asininity. So maybe the way it is works.
 
I don't think we should attempt to 'save' those who clearly do not wished to be saved. It's not energy efficient. And as far as i can see, mr fuckedupcrackjunkie as 'interesting' as he may be with his unrelentless dysphoric knowledge beyond the point of metaphysical war or whatever, is just deliberately looking for negative responses.

It is just unimaginable to me, that someone who comes up here with the claim of infinite knowledge and being more or less the master of the universe, is out for serious discussion or expects to be taken seriously.

And if he's only 12 or 13, he'll have decades of learning and maturing ahead of him so then nothing is lost there. Many of us have been lonely and 'misunderstood' teenagers, and have survived this phase without having suffered too much harm.

I sympathise strongly with pandora's view. But i think art is right. It's not thát elitist not to be friendly to unfriendly folk. I think that if someone is genuine and positive, they'll get plenty of opportunity's here to learn.

Think of apoc who started with wanting to do megadoses of DMT. Well, he turned out right did he?
 
Thank you for this post Pandora! I have a few thoughts, albeit a bit abstract maybe. Here goes.

I suppose we have to consider several things here - On one hand, as nexians, we have a responsibility towards the nexus and its members, which is why we keep the main forum as clean as we can from trolls and other such contaminants. We have guidelines and rules and a general attitude and vibe that people have to *get* before they can really enter the forum, and this is good. We educate or leave people to self-educate in the nursery until they fit our standards. ok.
Even so the nexus-community must be maintained and progressed, it must adapt to the changing times and it is all of our responsibility to work towards this. Taking one or the other approach over another as a standardized response probably isn't going to always work so I think it's sensible to look at each situation and person in a diffentiated manner.

Now aside from the nexus as a whole we want to take care of all the individuals as well, meaning making sure they get quality information and not get mislead by false claims. We want people to make informed decisions - of course this requires them to have functioning decision making capabilities. Either way this means we have to interject when dangerous claims are being made, when disinformation is spread or anything that could obscure the scientific and empiric knowledge we have accumulated so far as a community. Again it's hard to say what the best way to react to any such content is, but given that we have such a variety of members, shouldn't it be ok to have both the harsh and the soft responses? understanding and compassion can certainly help but at the same time it is not entirely wrong to point out that certain behavior is foolish, reckless, dangerous and possibly harmful for others as well. It#s not entirely wrong to even get upset about a post that glorifies such things, and shouldn't this kind of upset response be a good sign of authentic concern?

But finally we are not only Nexians, we are also human beings and as human beings we also have a responsibility towards the collective of humanity and the individuals that roam the planet. So the idea, as I see it is to find a good balance between brutal honesty & concern and understanding & education for the sake of both the nexus/nexians and humanity/humans.

Perhaps it's good to question oneself when posting - how much of this is mockery, and how much of this is needed content. Because the mockery and snide comments aren't always helpful at all. so I think if we get our intentions straight we can do much better. We've been having discussions going towards some progressive changes in attitude in the chat the last few days and I feel we are moving in a good direction. I'm actually glad this seems to be a general feeling with a lot of people here. Once we clarify what it is we really want of and for the nexus and of and for our fellow humans I think we can all function as the members of these groups we are in a much more *efficient* manner.

much love
Enoon
 
polytrip said:
Many of us have been lonely and 'misunderstood' teenagers, and have survived this phase without having suffered too much harm.
Click to expand...

With deep respect to the above mentioned reality, nonetheless I feel compelled to say:

I've heard that song before. Oh yes, it is the one that has been sung by abusers and neglectors down through the millienia. The song sounds like this: My Dad beat the shit out of me. My kid won't listen. I'm gonna beat the shit out of him.

So I feel compelled to ask:

Given that you and many others, myself included were lonely and "misunderstood" as teenagers, and have survived given the current status quo without having suffered too much harm - is the world the same or better than when you were a teenager?

[He he - NOT only grief counseling my friends, but also seriously considering Pandora for President USA 2012! My ego has no bounds!]

It is easy to perpetuate these attitudes. IT is risky to go out on my street and talk to someone who doesn't look like me when two people who look like me were shot point blank in the head less than a year ago right across the street. I get that. I still say we need to illuminate and try to break negative cycles. Or at least try.

Enoon, you should have written the original post, that's all I can say. <3.
 
As long as constructive criticism lives up to the former within the term, I see no issue with being cynical, but I see no reason to be insulting. Education for some means learning the hard way, and learning about things through text from someone half way across the world seems like the most delicate manner in which to introduce the hard way of learning.

Although, I do see Pandora's point. New members see a difference between themselves and older, "wiser" members and may in fact look toward something such as the join dates under our names as a deciding factor for someones legitimacy. We can't make the world perfect, and we can't expect to make this forum perfect, but we can still strive to educate when considering that all perspectives of those here are that of a human who has come to learn or discuss events that do, in all fact, change lives.

Be careful with your words, and don't confuse being a smart ass with being a jerk.
 
One of the things I really like here is the contract and balance we have in our mods and senior members.

I like both Art's no-nonsense, attack dog type of approach, as this is sometimes needed as well as The Traveler's method of diffusing a situation no matter how volatile.

I too am guilty of jumping to conclusions, locking a thread and wanting a member to go away. Meh...it's a quickly growing online forum. I do what I can...and I'm ok with that.

I am however, grateful for members like you Pandora, that can counterbalance my quick dismissal of some posts and members.
 
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