Thoughts on the Backfiring of Harm Reduction

[Xt]

Im sensing some interesting micro-macro similarity between this topic and our daily responsibility's as human beings in the outside world, outside of our computer desks. It could relate to a number of situations.

You do what you can i guess. It helps when one tries to act with mindfulness in all situations.

I tend to lean on the facts when it comes to this particular occurrence.
Mess with datura... you may well get severely hurt. Ill say that and leave it at that.
You wanna dose with DMT or harmalas? I might respond with some numbers and why not to go over them.
Essentially:
You can lead a horse to water, but you cant make it drink.

 

[obliguhl]

I like both Art's no-nonsense, attack dog type of approach, as this is sometimes needed

No, it's not needed. It's the absolute worst thing you can do. Unfortunatly, most of us are raised to believe that verbal violence solves anything. But let me tell you just this: People who need to get verbally punished in order to "behave" won't find happyness on thhe nexus anyway:

I don't think we should attempt to 'save' those who clearly do not wished to be saved. It's not energy efficient.

So better assume that they are able to listen to arguments and are willing to benefit from a loving atmosphere. Verbal violence goes against everything i deem fit for fruitful social communications and it boggles my mind that someone is allowed to curse like a sailor and to ramble on and on just because he is elected to do so. It also puts out the statement, that it's OK for some to break the most basic rules of the attitude page. "You just have to get powerful enough!"

I sympathise strongly with pandora's view. But i think art is right. It's not thát elitist not to be friendly to unfriendly folk. I think that if someone is genuine and positive, they'll get plenty of opportunity's here to learn.

That's exactly what's wrong with society: There is no unconditional love.
The nexus could very well be a place were this rule is reversed...Conditional love IS elitist by definition

I remember the time i came to the nexus and used harsh words in my communication, because i was used to do that in forums. It was acolon5 who told me something along the lines of "We don't like this kind of talk here" and gave a little explanation.

He did not say me "Listen up you low life piece of shit...blablabla"

If he or ANYONE had done so, i'd never stayed. Never. Not a chance.

 

[Enoon]

just so long as no one is leading horses to toxic waste dumps... I mean that's what we have to watch out for, no? to at least give fair warning.

 

[obliguhl]

Noone is arguing against that.

 

[endlessness]

Hmmmm I would like to state again, regarding obli's post, that I think there is a fine difference between being harsh-but-true/no-compromise/to-the-point/humourous, and being unnecessarily disrespectful, as they are two different things. I think art can at times be quite harsh and we have at times told him so and even edited/deleted his posts or asked him to change it when we feel it has crossed that fine line.

As has been said before, there is a very important diversity here in the Nexus, and it is because of this diversity that it works. While it may be the way I usually try to go for, I think if here there only were people that try to patiently calmly explain anything, if every single person was "caressing" all the newcommers no matter what they said and did, I dont think it would work as well as with this diversity, where some are very welcoming, others are harsher, and then discussions happen about it such as this one where we all learn from each other .

I think art's role is essential to this place, but that due to his own personality and way of being, it is also important that we give him constructive feedback whenever he goes overboard, and im sure he is open to hear from us.

And just to name an example of art's posts (excuse me for turning this into something about you art ) take that dopestick thread and art's first (or rather second) post. I think his two points there were very valid, regarding the name of the person and how he comes across. I think that was reasonably expressed, and the 'wedgie' comment was hilarious and not overly offensive in any way. Same goes for gibran2's post, which was hilarious imo. I wouldnt have done either of those posts myself, I have a different style of writting, but I think they were excellent and to the point, and not disrespectful but using humour to point out one's flaw. If this is balanced with other people that can show also the motherly-caring side, I think its a perfect balance of responses. Thats just my opinion though

 

[obliguhl]

And just to name an example of art's posts (excuse me for turning this into something about you art Smile ) take that dopestick thread and art's first (or rather second) post. I think his two points there were very valid, regarding the name of the person and how he comes across. I think that was reasonably expressed, and the 'wedgie' comment was hilarious and not overly offensive in any way.

Man, it's not about giving criticism. I think it's necessary. They way you put it, it sounds like "Not everyone should be a gutless softie, so it's good we have art!". His reply in said thread is fine with me. I do not think it's necessary for the rest of the group to chime in. But giving dopestick an outside perspective is a good thing to do.

I think art's role is essential to this place, but that due to his own personality and way of being, it is also important that we give him constructive feedback whenever he goes overboard, and im sure he is open to hear from us.

Sounds like he's some sort of tamed beast or something. No, he is not. He's a human being with lots of life experience and he should be expected to watch himself first, before criticizing other people. I'm well aware that people turn out different due to different circumstances. But there is a BIG difference between giving (sometimes harsh) ctritique and BASHING OTHERS to stroke ones own ego.

 

[endlessness]

Man, it's not about giving criticism. I think it's necessary. They way you put it, it sounds like "Not everyone should be a gutless softie, so it's good we have art!". His reply in said thread is fine with me. I do not think it's necessary for the rest of the group to chime in. But giving dopestick an outside perspective is a good thing to do.

Im not sure what you mean? I didnt mean to sound like 'not everyone should be a gutless softie', unless im calling myself and others here as gutless softies, which was not my intention I really mean it with the importance of diversity, in my experience in life in general and in my work this is always one of the most important variables and sources of learning (and it also takes a lot of effort to manage it).

Sounds like he's some sort of tamed beast or something. No, he is not. He's a human being with lots of life experience and he should be expected to watch himself first, before criticizing other people. I'm well aware that people turn out different due to different circumstances. But there is a BIG difference between giving (sometimes harsh) ctritique and BASHING OTHERS to stroke ones own ego.

Yeah I completely agree that there is a difference between bashing and giving harsh critique, thats exactly what my posts here said, no? and IMO his post in the dopestick thread was more to the critique side.

I dont think art is some tamed beast (but there was a smile from the image that expression gave me ), maybe that how you see him? As I said before, I think we all have different styles and personalities that for the most part I find very complementary. Sure he is a human being, like you and me and everybody else here, and we all make our own mistakes, so we must all support each other in finding our potentials and not falling for our mistakes, right? Its not like any of us is perfect, and at the same time just because we arent perfect doesnt mean we cant help others in seeing their mistakes, each one with their own style of doing that, no?

 

[ibeing897]

I had to comment on this thread, it's quite interesting and I do feel quite important because I've noticed there is a serious problem with how some of the members react to certain members and their posts. When I first started posting on the nexus I was involved in a thread, I can't actually remember what it was but I was probably involved in a polemic, and I probably didn't have as much experience in the topic from a nexus point of view... but I used the slang abbreviation "cuz" instead of because, no big deal I thought, but this was seized upon, the accusation at the time was that I was a teeny-bopper/lacked intelligence/lacked experience, shouldn't be taken seriously... I found this quite shocking at the time, firstly because it's just not true, I'm actually a highly educated full blown adult with a lot of experience with psychedelics... I haven't been a teenager in a long time.. but I felt there was a tone of snobbery where by you have people on here who jump to conclusions about people, their intent, their abilities, their motivations and I've always gone by that idiom - never judge a book by it's cover... and in the context of a message board, people should only read the lines written - not between them - they've got nothing else to go on.

In regards Art, I do remember your harsh responses to me and others, in several threads- where you jump to conclusions about people and a lot of times, you have been wrong with your assumptions.. and speaking personally I think it is the wrong way to behave, you don't know what the person is like beyond the text written on the screen ... even in this thread you say "his several posts (IMO) just oozed with inauthenticity" - this is your problem in a nutshell - you don't know, you're just speculating... I don't know whether you're just stating your instincts rather than stating facts, but you've marked me incorrectly a couple of times... it doesn't look good how you "come across" (notice I've come to resent that term because people love analysing how people "come across" on the nexus).. it's just not an endearing quality. I mean I notice this same behaviour in maybe half of your posts, and it's just too obvious now, maybe you're a cynic, but also it comes off that you think you know people better than they know themselves. That is not a no nonsense approach, that is a nonsensical approach. I mean using the terms "cuz" and "deemster" have nothing to do with your 5 good response reasons - you jumped on me for using those words. Other than that I enjoy your posts and otherwise have no issue with you.

Art is not the only person guilty of this... just recently we had a heated thread about the term "deemster" which I found appalling, it was incredible to me that several members of this board were so reactive to a word, that they thought they could talk down to someone who used it in a completely different manner, even when they stated their meaning in copious detail.. all based on some earlier threads where it was deemed derogatory by a minority of people... even the thread that started it began "I know it shouldn't bother me, but it does" something to that effect, and following this private discussion between a few individuals, people thought they could judge another outside individual who used the word. First of all, nobody has any right to get offended by that word. Secondly by the end of the thread, I received so much speculation about what I was it was laughable, because I used the word "deemster" (even after explaining my meaning) I was assumed to be a teenage idiot who didn't respect DMT and apparently into psytrance - absolute absurdity. The way people reacted in that thread was an insult to the nexus.

At the same time, I understand how these behaviours manifest... this is an exclusive group, discussing a forgotten/esoteric knowledge... we've got to be careful that we don't become like the Freemasons or even a cult... in many ways it is: "us vs them" because we're talking about a topic that is very much on the fringe, it is very underground - it's illegal in most countries, psychedelic discussions are explicit because outsiders don't really "get it". I think it is important for members of the nexus to realise that no matter how underground the topic is, this subject should not be exclusive, secret or esoteric, I believe it is our responsibility to share this knowledge with others [possibly the whole world] in a manner that is as helpful as possible and if somebody comes on here demonstrating a lack of knowledge/experience they shouldn't be shunned/attacked unless they clearly deserve to be. Art and others are too quick to the trigger and go straight for the jugular and this is not how we change the status quo. Also I believe that just because we have done our reading/put in the work/ that does not mean we're any better than the people who have not.

I feel this is a world that is completely invisible to most people and we all have to start at the beginning, they don't teach us this in school, most of us don't have shamans or elders, so we enter into this completely ignorant and we need nexus "elders" to act more graciously and forgiving of ignorance.

 

[polytrip]

That's exactly what's wrong with society: There is no unconditional love.
The nexus could very well be a place were this rule is reversed...Conditional love IS elitist by definition

I remember the time i came to the nexus and used harsh words in my communication, because i was used to do that in forums. It was acolon5 who told me something along the lines of "We don't like this kind of talk here" and gave a little explanation.

He did not say me "Listen up you low life piece of shit...blablabla"

If he or ANYONE had done so, i'd never stayed. Never. Not a chance.

Listen, generally speaking you're right and i agree.
But that dopesick dude is clearly either a troll, a 12/13 year old kid, someone in dire need of therapy and med's, or a combination of one or more of these.

In any of those cases, proper communication fails. It's always worth trying. but that HAS been done. He didn't respond well to criticism that was given in the most friendly way either. You can read the thread.

There was another dude some time ago who believed he was being haunted by electric jews. I told him that he needed to visit a shrink. He wouldn't listen and persisted that electric jews are real and that they live in electric wires all around.
Pretending that you could have a decent discussion is useless and even counterproductive in these cases.
There are no electric jews living in the wires. I aksed the electric palestinians and they clearly told me there could be no such thing.

 

[Shrabbit420]

There are no electric jews living in the wires. I aksed the electric palestinians and they clearly told me there could be no such thing.

Too funny.


I think lbeing789 added a good perspective to this. But to add my feelings onto it I will say this, Its all a matter of perspective.

-I do see the nexus "elders" acting adequately gracious and forgiving of ignorance, not each of them, but there is balance in the diversity that is the whole of the nexus.

-And to the part about getting attacked for using certain words, I agree with you, but it's still a matter of perspective. I would've said the same thing I say to my grandmother when I use 'foul language' in front of her, "it's only a 'bad' word if you attach that meaning to it. It doesn't mean that coming from my mouth, because I didn't have those intentions behind it. I can call someone a 'wang', and even though its not considered a 'curse word', I would consider that worse, because the intention behind it was meant negatively towards someone"

 

[ibeing897]

-And to the part about getting attacked for using certain words, I agree with you, but it's still a matter of perspective. I would've said the same thing I say to my grandmother when I use 'foul language' in front of her, "it's only a 'bad' word if you attach that meaning to it. It doesn't mean that coming from my mouth, because I didn't have those intentions behind it. I can call someone a 'wang' and even though its not considered a 'curse word', I would consider that worse, because the intention behind it was to meant negatively towards someone"

Yeah I agree with you here, kind of, well, it's the lack of perspective/narrow-mindedness that I see... "it's only a bad word if you attach meaning onto it".. I explained my meaning of "deemster" in detail, and the attacks began afterwards, even when they knew my intention and meaning (which wasn't negative), even when they knew of my ignorance to this past conversation that only some were privy to, they invented the negative connotation in a nexus thread (!) so they had no right to get offended by it from an outsider.., perfect example of misplaced nexus elitism. If your "perspective" comes from a private group of individuals then you've got a narrow perspective. The word "cuz" of course just means "because" and it's intention was to abbreviate, yet it was used as some indicator of intelligence.... where does perspective come in there? it's kinda outrageous on both counts. I'm not going to get hung up on these particular examples, they are just examples of people attacking others for the wrong reasons...

 

[Shrabbit420]

Maybe they were just having a bad day and needed to vent. If I was in that position I would've explained myself, apologized for offending them, and left it at that. If they would say anything after that, then that would simply be them getting mad for no reason, and someone looking on this from the outside would be able to see this.

 

[ibeing897]

Maybe they were just having a bad day and needed to vent. If I was in that position I would've explained myself, apologized for offending them, and left it at that. If they would say anything after that, then that would simply be them getting mad for no reason, and someone looking on this from the outside would be able to see this.

I'm sorry man, I thought we were having a genuine discussion here "Maybe they were having a bad day?" is such a weak argument I can't even respond to that... I don't know where to begin... also I would never [ever] apologize for offending someone with their own made-up offensive term, that's absolute insanity, I didn't have to explain myself and I had no reason to apologise because I did nothing wrong, finally, I didn't get mad for no reason, I didn't get mad for a start, I was attacked with comments and accusations falsely, they did wrong to me so it's them who should be apologising. I'm not going to continue discussing this with you because you're seemingly outside the parameters of the discussion we're having in this thread.

hey Pandora maybe they were just having a bad day?

 

[Shrabbit420]

Whoa man, I think you took what I said out of context. I'm not defending their actions, just posing a possibility, we all have days where we're on a short leash and the silliest things can break us off, who knows what else was going on, that could've just been the straw that broke the camel's back and pissed him off.

You don't have to take the same path I do, its simply what I would've done, and there would never be any reason for me to try to defend myself afterwords because I would've done nothing wrong. It would all be on them for not having humility, and thus they would be mad for no reason.

 

[ibeing897]

Whoa man, I think you took what I said out of context. I'm not defending their actions, just posing a possibility, we all have days where we're on a short leash and the silliest things can break us off, who knows what else was going on, that could've just been the straw that broke the camel's back and pissed him off.

You don't have to take the same path I do, its simply what I would've done, and there would never be any reason for me to try to defend myself afterwords because I would've done nothing wrong. It would all be on them for not having humility, and thus they would be mad for no reason.

It wasn't just 1 person dude. It was several. They can't all have been having a bad day and even if they were it would still be unjustifiable.. Also in regards context, everything I'm saying is in the context of Pandora's post and this thread. Look, when you say it was just them having a bad day, it goes contrary to my view that this was an example of nexus elitism/snobbery/cultism, whatever you want to call it... that's what it was, and I think the whole example of "deemster" gaining negative connotations from a small group of people and then them passing that on to a newbie was as good an example of what Pandora is talking about. I totally agree that they were mad no reason.

 

[corpus callosum]

Ibeing789 case ,and some of his points are valid, shouldnt be autopsied here as it derails an important thread.We dont want the morgue filling up!

I think the medium of the internet has altered our psyches and has cultivated a 'sense' of knowing whoever you may interact with through this technology and this psychological 'aberration/evolution', which cannot suffice in 'real' life with face-to-face interaction, has to be born in mind here.The written word is a wonder.... but gives an inevitably limited knowledge of what is being alluded to or conveyed, unless you are particularly eloquent with the pen (or keyboard!).

We are a community united by our interests and we are capable of reading and understanding the Attitude Section and ,overwhelmingly, it runs very well.But any community is at least the very sum of its parts, and as humans we are all blessed with those unique traits/attitudes/modes of expression which are uniquly ours and this should not be stifled in any way. We are after all a Community, not a cult.

I'm confident that many Nexians know through bitter experience that to act ('drop') in haste can cause one to repent ('torment') at leisure so we understand, amongst other things, patience.I think that any reply made in any thread tneds to be one you are more happy with if you had considered what you wished to throw out there for the Nexians to see before posting.I think its important to have a low theshold for asking gentle questions initially and guaging the response before adopting a slightly different tone, if required, to allow the discussion to proceed.


Patience, compassion, a gentle probing attitude, flexibility, and the ability to condemn when required- these seem to me to be the necessary ingredients.

 

[Bill Cipher]

To lbeing789 - I will say that you have valid points. Your initial posts I vaguely remember (although clearly they've stuck more with you than with me), but if I recall, you were speaking of your PhD(?) and other credentials?? If that was you (and honestly I really had no recollection that it was), your delivery at the time seemed odd and incongruent with your content. It's become clear since then that you are articulate and have quite a bit to say. But how are we to communicate within this particular medium, except through our abilities to express ourselves on paper? There's nothing else to go by, unfortunately, so presentation is everything. If your style of expression appears to come from a "deemster's the shiznit" direction, how is anyone to ascertain that you've something more going on? Clearly I wasn't the only one who got the wrong idea, but I think if a number of people are somehow misconstruing your words, perhaps it might be prudent to reassess your mode of expression. Apparently, it seems that you did and have, as your current style of writing bears little resemblance to those early posts.

On a more macro level, I can see that there are likely many more actual humans out there who I have upset with my needling and sarcasm. I'm not unable to take this all in, and I sincerely apologize for hurting feelings (even in those cases where my intention has been just that). So, again I'll say that if it seems to be what enough of the people here want, I'm happy to turn in my (love)gun and badge, and let someone else take a turn.

Finally, To obliguhl - I actually like that you think of me as some kind of a gnarly beast. I believe you could probably benefit from just a hint of a sense of humor - but we've been down this road before, you and I, so just keep on keepin' on.

 

[obliguhl]

I dont think art is some tamed beast (but there was a smile from the image that expression gave me Razz ), maybe that how you see him? As I said before, I think we all have different styles and personalities that for the most part I find very complementary. Sure he is a human being, like you and me and everybody else here, and we all make our own mistakes, so we must all support each other in finding our potentials and not falling for our mistakes, right? Its not like any of us is perfect, and at the same time just because we arent perfect doesnt mean we cant help others in seeing their mistakes, each one with their own style of doing that, no?

For me, this place has been an opportunity for growth because the first time in my life, i get the feeling to put myself in a meaningful context. This is worth a lot, because it opens a space for inner healing. I agree that helping others identify mistakes is a good thing if done in a honest way. I'm just not sure if it's really appreciated.

Finally, To obliguhl - I actually like that you think of me as some kind of a gnarly beast[edit by obliguhl: I said you were a grown man, NOT a beast, please read carefuly]. I believe you could probably benefit from just a hint of a sense of humor - but we've been down this road before, you and I, so just keep on keepin' on.

Look, i may not like dominant behaviour but i can somewhat tolerate it, if the person displaying it stays fair. So I would appreciate if you could stop judging me. I'm not the grumpy humorless bastard you portray me to be, and i'm sure you're not a monster. So why don't we both focus on bettering ourselves. That is energy better spent.

 

[ibeing897]

To lbeing789 - I will say that you have valid points. Your initial posts I vaguely remember (although clearly they've stuck more with you than with me), but if I recall, you were speaking of your PhD(?) and other credentials?? If that was you (and honestly I really had no recollection that it was), your delivery at the time seemed odd and incongruent with your content. It's become clear since then that you are articulate and have quite a bit to say. But how are we to communicate here in this medium, except through our writing voices? There's nothing else to go by, unfortunately, so presentation is everything. If your style of expression appears to come from a "deemster's the shiznit" direction, how is anyone to ascertain that you've something more going on? Clearly I wasn't the only one who got the wrong idea, but I think if a number of people are somehow misconstruing your words, perhaps it might be prudent to reassess your mode of expression. Clearly, it seems that you did and have, as your current style of writing bears little resemblance to those early posts.

I appreciate your attitude with this, I mean you've said all I could ask you to and I thank you for that. I honestly can't remember the early discussions, just that "cuz" thing stuck with me and I think my in-congruent responses may have been in response to what I saw was unfair typecasting, to be honest, in my early posts I may have even been trolling to a certain extent because I have done that before. Actually thinking back I think I remember people apologising because nexus had "history", maybe they were referring to lame posters on dmt-world, it wasn't too long before nexus got the pre-member stuff. I like to stir up debate and take polemical positions, I don't like dogma and lame discussions, I want to add something new, but sometimes -maybe like yourself, if I think there is an attitude/absurdity with people in a forum, I like to take a playful position...but obviously since then I've grown quite fond of the nexus and I do think it's a special forum, I love all the characters here and the attitude of the place is fascinating actually because it's a genuine mix of people, there is a curious mix of spiritual/scientific folk which you don't see many places but also you get people from all different age groups/backgrounds.

I have definitely changed my writing style but this has been in reaction to the nexus' style and I think that actually resonates more with Pandora's points. It's been a long time, a lot of reading, and I do think newbies have to learn the ways, but I think there are moments where it's goes a little too far, heading into secret society territory... I think my early posts must've fallen into the traps of newbie posters not knowing the history of the forum, I remember using the term SWIM a lot for example, I automatically think noob now when I see it, but I don't look down on the poster... I'm glad I stuck with the forum, but those are the kind of things I think we need to be more aware of - people that don't know the history aren't necessarily stupid and Art I think you've just got to give people the benefit of the doubt.... I'm someone who respects people up until the point they give me a reason not to, but in my life in general I meet so many people who, it seems I have to earn their respect and that doesn't seem right to me...and I'm kind of stuck up/arrogant tbh, if people don't respect me up front, I tend to shun them forever...

Art, I no longer have any beef with you, thank you for responding fairly, I really do appreciate it.

 

[Bill Cipher]

I will say (just to provide some context) that there was indeed a period of time prior to the introduction of the Nursery (and my recruitment into the Mod Squad) that the Nexus was very much under a kind of attack. There were a number of people showing up here with overtly malicious intentions - including some hackers with multiple accounts, looking to do very bad things. This was likely a part of the reason that I was asked to moderate in the first place - because, and not in spite of, my attitude - to help chase these assbags away.

I realize that I've probably been given more latitude here than most, and I understand I've stepped over the line on more than one occasion. I hear the criticism and will do my best to try and be less judgmental - but feel free, one and all, to air out your respective beefs.