Unexpected alkaloid from "MHRB" extraction

[schmexus]

Original material visually indistinguishable from MHRB used in the past. Extraction was performed using Cyb's Salt A2B tek, solvent naphta. Product was re-X'ed once. Yield was 1.2 grams from 50g of material.

Final product can be seen in picture. It has almost no smell.

Vaporising it even in copious amounts, produces effects similar to very low doses of n,n-DMT: physical relaxation, mental calm, very mild visuals. In contrast to DMT however, a sense of meditative, sleepy calm lingers for the rest of the day.

Needless to say, a disappointing result. But any ideas what it could actually be?

 

[endlessness]

If I may give my opinion, i think a more accurate title would be "unexpected effects from supposed mhrb extract" or similar, since there is no unequivocal evidence (yet) that it is a different alkaloid.

Even pure DMT can give low dose type effects (check out the denied breakthrough related posts) for a variety of possible reasons.

As for whether it is possibly something other than DMT, id say the best way to answer the question is either test with TLC or at least test with a few different reagents like ehrlich, mecke and mandelin. If you do that, post back amd we can give a more informed opinion.

 

[schmexus]

The high yield and lack of dmt's distinctive smell already suggested it was something different, but to rule out the possibility, I used product left from a previous extraction, which produced full, familiar effects, shortly after trying the mysterious alkaloid.

 

[endlessness]

Thanks for further explaining your reasoning...

I still wouldnt rule out other possibilities before some sort of chemical assay, for a few reasons.. Ive had DMT extracts that did not have that pungent plasticky smell, had a more earthy flowery discrete smell, somewhat similar but significantly less pronounced. Granted, it was extracted/crystallized with a different solvent, which isnt your case, but I think that residual solvent may have something to do with the famous DMT smell. Another possibility, which could potentially explain both smell differences as well as effects differences, is different polymorphs of DMT having different melting/boiling points which can affect efficiency of your vaporization method and therefore strenght of effects.

Im not saying those are necessarily the correct hypothesis for your different effects, just offering some food for thought, considering alternate possibilities. You may as well have extracted a different plant, it may be acacia rootbark containing a lot of NMT which isnt nearly as psychoacticlve, or who knows what else... I still think TLC or at least reagent testing is the way to go to move this discussion out of speculation and into propper experimentation that can answet questions properly.

 

[schmexus]

Regarding boiling temperature of different polymorphs, at any rate I vaporised copious amounts of the alkaloid, and short exhales confirmed my lungs were, in fact filled with vapour.

The next investment of time and money that I make will be for a new extraction, rather than a chemical test. I was just curious if the community was already aware of this particular scenario, where a different alkaloid is extracted in high yield from a MHRB lookalike. I'm intrigued that the answer seems to be no.

I've read about NMT earlier, what is known about it does not really match the effects I mentioned.

 

[endlessness]

The community might take a while to answer. Give it a bit of time.

sorry for repeating but i wanted to emphasize the thought that your scenario that this is a different alkaloid is still a hypothesis. It may be a different alkaloid, it may be several different alkaloids, it may be a non-alkaloidal substance or some other explanation altogether. Imho its good to be mindful of the way we express these things in order to keep the discussion accurate.

What has your research informed you about nmt effects which you say is different than what you felt? Nen has been vocal about his nmt experiences and i certainly trust he is accurately describing what he felt, but Ive also read other reports about nmt being inactive to very slightly active (maybe affecting people differently) which is why I considered this possibility.

Anyways sounds like either way you are going to move on into other extractions, so good luck with that

 

[schmexus]

sorry for repeating but i wanted to emphasize the thought that your scenario that this is a different alkaloid is still a hypothesis. It may be a different alkaloid, it may be several different alkaloids, it may be a non-alkaloidal substance or some other explanation altogether. Imho its good to be mindful of the way we express these things in order to keep the discussion accurate.

sure, if anyone has specific suggestions for each of the scenarios you mention, that match all the data points, I'd be interested to hear them.

What has your research informed you about nmt effects which you say is different than what you felt? Nen has been vocal about his nmt experiences and i certainly trust he is accurately describing what he felt, but Ive also read other reports about nmt being inactive to very slightly active (maybe affecting people differently) which is why I considered this possibility.

I assumed nen's account was the most reliable. But Arcologist's description does come very close. If it's NMT, this would be surprising from a MHRB lookalike, considering the high yield also.

 

[Mindlusion]

sorry for repeating but i wanted to emphasize the thought that your scenario that this is a different alkaloid is still a hypothesis. It may be a different alkaloid, it may be several different alkaloids, it may be a non-alkaloidal substance or some other explanation altogether. Imho its good to be mindful of the way we express these things in order to keep the discussion accurate.

sure, if anyone has specific suggestions for each of the scenarios you mention, that match all the data points, I'd be interested to hear them.

What has your research informed you about nmt effects which you say is different than what you felt? Nen has been vocal about his nmt experiences and i certainly trust he is accurately describing what he felt, but Ive also read other reports about nmt being inactive to very slightly active (maybe affecting people differently) which is why I considered this possibility.

I assumed nen's account was the most reliable. But Arcologist's description does come very close. If it's NMT, this would be surprising from a MHRB lookalike, considering the high yield also.

you need to provide useful data. subjective experience, even if you trust your judgement, isn't useful to the discussion because it can't be shared objectively. While working I make countless decisions based on my hunchs or crude approximations using the senses (smell, sight, etc), and these are certainly not reliable but rough approximations are still useful, they point you toward what questions you should ask and what reliable data that you should collect but these I would not include in the pool of data to share with others in order to form a consensus. Assuming the plant material is what it is, there is nothing at all to suggest what you have isn't just a crude extract largely dominated by DMT. And I would suspect if you ran it through mass spec that is exactly what you would see.

In the earlier days of this forum, lots of people had ideas about their extracted based on perceived colour, subjective experience on the psyche, and suggested all sorts of ideas including trace alkaloids. But when the time finally came along when these different forms could be analyzed objectively, they all came up with practically the same result, DMT is the only dominant alkaloid.
The difference between recrystallized yellow and white and full spectrum red goo is only a few % purity, both being >94% read more here red yellow white spice whats the difference? - Advanced/Enhanced chemistry - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus and visit endlessness's thread compiling a lot of info on this matter: RESULTS: Plant and Substance analysis - Plant Analysis and Substance Testing - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

This makes sense, because DMT is very easy to crystallize because it is extracted in a very pure form even from a simple STB.

Mixtures of compounds, especially compounds that are similar to eachother (other tryptamines) significantly suppress the likelyhood of getting one of the compounds to crystallize. Instead the result is precipitation of an oil as the alkaloid mixture. Generally, anything below 70% pure is troublesome, and will usually require multiple crystallization to achieve separation.

I always recommend TLC because it provides an incredible amount of reliable information about the mixture, while extremely simple and cheap.

 

[schmexus]

Assuming the plant material is what it is, there is nothing at all to suggest what you have isn't just a crude extract largely dominated by DMT. And I would suspect if you ran it through mass spec that is exactly what you would see.

so your best guess, after taking everything so far into account (including whether the subjective experiences is reliable), is that: i've smoked an X amount of relatively pure n,n-DMT from the new batch, which produced very mild effects; then 10 minutes later i smoked less than half that amount also of DMT but from the old batch, and it produced full effects?

in that case, i might try a blind A/B test with the two batches. it would be extraordinary if it was possible to switch dmt immunity on and off reliably in the span of a few minutes with set alone.

if that turns out to be the case, i've no idea how to solve the problem :?:

 

[schmexus]

I always recommend TLC because it provides an incredible amount of reliable information about the mixture, while extremely simple and cheap.

in the TLC thread linked by endlessness there is a vendor of ready made kits, but the cheapest goes for $80 and seems to allow for many tests. is there a cheaper alternative, for a one-time test?

 

[Mindlusion]

it sounds weird, no doubt about that, that's my best guess assuming the plant material is what it says it is.

But actually the most common cause for impurities that effects the weight/yield, and so potency, is residual solvent trapped within the solid material. This would also explain the above average yield for 50g of bark. Sometimes people get over eager on reporting yields before they are sure that all of the solvent has been evaporated (because I know a lot of >2% yields are reported). Especially with something like freeze precipitation and decantation, to get things dry in a few hours you usually need to apply some air current like vacuum filtration, or gentle heat while breaking up the solid. Left untouched in the open air with good circulation it takes many days perhaps a week, to fully dry. Some materials are surprising and really hold onto even volatile solvents, like ether. As well as being virtually undetectable by smell, and ether is quite smelly. Over 2% is quite a lot, You could try re-purifying the material, or as I suggested apply gentle heat on a glass surface while breaking up the solid, and reweigh at the end.

i don't know of a source off hand but finding cheap plates even outside of kits can be difficult, scientific suppliers like to overcharge large institutions/universities... china probably has something to offer, considering that they are just glass or plastic backing with a film of silica and a bit of plaster. If you can find a box of plates for a reasonable price, at least you'll be set for life, to get the most out of plates you can re-use them as well, either spotting on a clean section of the plate, or even flushing it with a polar solvent like acetone, so you can get plenty of use out of them.
Research labs generate a lot of glass waste, but its mainly due to that everyone is so damn busy and short of time. While at home, it takes more time but it is worth it to clean and re-use otherwise disposable items

 

[endlessness]

There is a friend from poland who is planning very soon to sell tlc kits too, im not sure in how long nor prices but i'll ask.

Buying in bulk is cheaper but bigger investment. The kits are already a simplified version with smaller amounts. It would be silly to do a one test type TLC because you already need the UV light, some eluent, a developing chamber and reagents, which are the bulk of the kit. Its possible to get just the colorimetric reagents by themselves in small vials or even one-use ampoules or similar, but reagents by themselves answer way less questions than TLC.

I understand it is an investment and not everyone has money for it at any given time.. If its a possibility, though, I highly recommend for the home chemist and the explorer of plant extracts. You really learn a lot, having a great accessible and hands-on experience in lab techniques and science in general

 

[schmexus]

also for the record, 5mL of the solvent (naphta) was tested and appeared to leave no residue. Freeze precip was not used, rather tha solvent was evaporated using a close proximity fan over the course of many hours (both after the pull and after the re-X).

 

[schmexus]

this vendor seems to supply single-test DMT kits, but they seem to work in a different way than the Bunkpolice ones linked in the TLC thread (e.g no UV light required). PRO Test

edit: nevermind, it seems to only be able to offer a colorimetric test. it's very likely the extract contains some dmt, but the more interesting question is what else it contains and in what quantity.

 

[endlessness]

Funny enough, that shop you just mentioned is exactly my friend's shop who will start selling TLC soon

and yeah, the product you linked is a set of reagents, very useful but better to have TLC apart from that.

 

[schmexus]

following Mindlusion's recommendations in the chat -

i re-dissolved the product in 30mL of warm naphta, decanted (despite a previous round of re-X, some sediment formed again), then freeze precipitated it for the first time (previously i had simply evaporated the naphta, both after the pulls and after the first re-X)

and it's DMT after all :thumb_up:

final yield more than a third lower

M is more knowledgeable and can explain it better, but from what i gathered, it appears that by evaporating large amounts of naphta, some petroleum products remained alongside the alkaloid. enough to explain the original higher than average yield and reduced potency when vaporised

thanks, guys

 

[Mindlusion]

following Mindlusion's recommendations in the chat -

i re-dissolved the product in 30mL of warm naphta, decanted (despite a previous round of re-X, some sediment formed again), then freeze precipitated it for the first time (previously i had simply evaporated the naphta, both after the pulls and after the first re-X)

and it's DMT after all :thumb_up:

final yield more than a third lower

M is more knowledgeable and can explain it better, but from what i gathered, it appears that by evaporating large amounts of naphta, some petroleum products remained alongside the alkaloid. enough to explain the original higher than average yield and reduced potency when vaporised

thanks, guys

:thumb_up: Glad the mystery was solved