Unnecessarily Large Doses of Caapi

[Apoc]

Hello. I was just wondering why some people take such big doses of caapi. I see people often write of taking 100 or more grams, and I wonder why because you'll probably just end up throwing up half your dose before absorbing it. I also wonder if the purge from such doses in due not to the plant, but to the large dose of harmalas themselves. Big doses of pure harmalas will make one feel dizzy and sick. The sick feelings detract from the trip.

From Gibran's caapi extraction experiments, he claims to have gotten about 3% alkaloids at most, and around 1% on the lower end. So, that means that a 100g dose of caapi is probably about as little as 1g of pure harmalas, or as much as 3g! That is much more than necessary and doses that large will probably make you sick.

Just wondering because I have never cooked the vine itself. Is there anyone who takes 100g of caapi and does NOT have a purge along with severe vertigo and flue like symptoms? I sometimes wonder if people who take ayahuasca prepared by boiling are overshooting their doses, and then they just end up throwing up a lot of it. Maybe it would be better to take less so as to not purge and waste. Thoughts?

 

[Phlux-]

"Maybe it would be better to take less so as to not purge and waste. Thoughts?"
purging is a good thing - id rather purge than not.

 

[jamie]

Im skeptical of these 3% claims also..gibran is not the first person to extract caapi at all..I would like to hear more from people very experienced with many diff vines that also have tried that tek..I dont think that that tek simply extracts more harmalas..it's either that the vine is some kind of super caapi, or there are some kind of inactive or less active things being pulled and people are taking it, getting inhibion etc but not experienced with a real high dose of caapi to compare it to. Thats just my speculation.

100 grams of vine though is not necessarily a super huge dose..I can drink 70+ grams and barely feel sick but still have visions all night long...and when I began to drink that would have been too much for me to even walk..

I watch minxx drink 120+ grams weekly without purging.

 

[soulfood]

Wasn't Gibran extracting from black caapi, which is very well known for it's high strength?

100g's of white caapi for me is very necassary and drinking less probably would not be worth. As for purging, the trick is being the boss of your body. I tend to on purposely drink a little more than I need and then hold onto it until I feel where I need to be, then I purge if I still have it in me to, but quite on occasion this does pass.

I never feel like I've had enough unless I purge though

 

[gibran2]

So far, I’ve extracted alkaloids from two varieties of caapi, each from a different vendor.

Yellow caapi was obviously young – mostly sticks about the diameter of a pencil. I got a yield of just under 1%.

I extracted mature black caapi from 3 different orders from the same vendor. The first two batches both yielded about 2%, and the third batch yielded over 3%.

I used the same procedure for all of these extractions. I’m reasonably detail-oriented, and didn’t vary my technique from extraction to extraction. If anyone questions the high yields, I encourage them to repeat the experiments! I’ve previously posted vendor information in the vendor sub-forum, and the TEK I use is freely available, so anyone who wants to buy black caapi from that vendor and try an extraction is encouraged to do so and to report their findings.

It is my understanding that alkaloid concentration can vary quite a bit, depending primarily on age of vine and variety/color. My limited experimentation has shown this to be the case.

It’s quite possible that other vendors are selling caapi even lower in alkaloid concentration than the yellow caapi I extracted. If a sample of caapi contains 0.25% alkaloids, then 100g would contain 250mg alkaloids, which is not a very high dose.

There is also speculation among some members that alkaloids consumed in a traditional brew are “buffered” or diluted in some way, and this allows one to consume more than they would need compared to pure alkaloids.

My experience with aya is too limited to draw any conclusions. I’ve only had aya once – a caapi-only brew from black caapi. I drank only 15g worth (300mg alkaloids), and it was very intense physically. I didn’t purge (didn’t really feel it in my stomach), but I felt very ill for several hours. This was my first (and only) ayahuasca experience, so I may have been more sensitive. Had I drunk 100g worth of that brew, I can’t imagine what would have happened.

 

[Felnik]

I've found black caapi to be extremely strong in the past .
Getting better at cooking it .

 

[gibran2]

Im skeptical of these 3% claims also..gibran is not the first person to extract caapi at all..I would like to hear more from people very experienced with many diff vines that also have tried that tek..I dont think that that tek simply extracts more harmalas..it's either that the vine is some kind of super caapi, or there are some kind of inactive or less active things being pulled and people are taking it, getting inhibion etc but not experienced with a real high dose of caapi to compare it to. Thats just my speculation.

100 grams of vine though is not necessarily a super huge dose..I can drink 70+ grams and barely feel sick but still have visions all night long...and when I began to drink that would have been too much for me to even walk..

I watch minxx drink 120+ grams weekly without purging.

Please see my previous post, and please do an extraction yourself to help validate my results. You’ve repeatedly expressed your skepticism, yet haven’t done anything to help get to the bottom of this.

It might be possible that other substances are being pulled, but what might those substances be? Whatever they are, they are soluble in acid and insoluble in base, just like caapi alkaloids.

Also, I’ve gotten different yields from different batches/varieties of vine, including one yield (yellow cappi) of under 1% (I think it was 0.97% or so). If there was some mysterious inactive substance being pulled, wouldn’t yields be uniformly high, regardless of variety?

I get inhibition from as little as 150-200mg of caapi extracted alkaloids. In very weak vine, that would correspond to 75-100g of caapi containing 0.2% alkaloids. (Or 7.5-10g of strong caapi containing 2% alkaloids).

I think that caapi alkaloid content varies much more than is generally accepted, and I think that the younger the vine, the lower the alkaloid content.

Even if you don’t want to extract from black caapi, I’d recommend you try an extraction on the vine you ordinarily use. It’s possible that the alkaloid content is not very high.

 

[The Traveler]

The white shredded Caapi from Maya yielded 2% harmalas at least. That means if you take 50g from that caapi in a well brewed tea you will have 1g of harmalas indeed.

I think this is a good question from the OP, do we really need that much? Looking at the amount of harmalas in my caapi and the amount of extract I use (200mg) I just need 10g of that same caapi instead of 50g.


Kind regards,

The Traveler

 

[polytrip]

For full MAO-inhibition you don't often need 50 grams, although i have the impression that this may vary from person to person.
I've been taking slightly more than strictly needed for years, just to be sure.
Untill i recently took a much bigger dose of around 80 grams. The experience of that was very positive. The psychedelic effects of caapi realy become noticeable when you take more and it add's something that is hard to describe. A warmth, a feeling of immersion.
I think that from now on, i'll always take larger amounts because i realy liked that extra dimension.
I never experienced before that caapi can have a strong psychedelic effect itself, but now i have, i wouldn't want it any other way no more.

 

[Eden]

A warmth, a feeling of immersion.

That is exactly it.

These large harmala doses are for purposes beyond inhibition...they are very psychoactive on their own.
In the whole pharma vs aya discussion, the comparison is a bit flawed considering typical pharma doses are 200-300mg.
Get up to 750-1000mg and the experience becomes much more like aya.

As it goes: Caapi is the cave you explore, DMT is the light you bring to see your way.

 

[gibran2]

A warmth, a feeling of immersion.

That is exactly it.

These large harmala doses are for purposes beyond inhibition...they are very psychoactive on their own.
In the whole pharma vs aya discussion, the comparison is a bit flawed considering typical pharma doses are 200-300mg.
Get up to 750-1000mg and the experience becomes much more like aya.

As it goes: Caapi is the cave you explore, DMT is the light you bring to see your way.

Yes, I think that answers the OP’s question. High doses of caapi aren’t just for inhibition, but rather for the unique effects they produce.

That being said, caapi strength does vary considerably! 1000mg alkaloids can correspond to quantities of caapi anywhere from less than 33g (3%) up to 400g (0.25%) or more.

And what about purging? Are alkaloids lost due to purging? How quickly are the alkaloids absorbed, and how long is it between consumption and purge?

"Maybe it would be better to take less so as to not purge and waste. Thoughts?"
purging is a good thing - id rather purge than not.

Purging has been woven into traditional ayahuasca use because purging is generally an unavoidable and natural part of ayahuasca consumption, not because purging itself has value. For example, traditional salvia use involves eating a very large amount of salvia leaves, but salvia rarely if ever causes vomiting. So purging – physically “getting all the bad stuff out” – is not a part of the salvia tradition.

 

[soulfood]

I definately don't use caapi just as an MAOI. When I drink ayahuasca I mean I drink ayahuasca. Often with very little admixture compared to when I use extracted alkaloids, for which my primary purpose is activating DMT orally which allows me to still remain quite active.

When I drink 100g's white caapi I probably have only the equivalent of 40mg DMT which would be a very light dose if I was just using 200mg pure harmine. However the synergy with ayahuasca is very much an experience I go through on my back that can last for up to 8 hours compared to the 2-3 of a 200mg harmine experience.

It's caapi aided by DMT, not caapi for the sake of DMT.

 

[Phlux-]

"Purging has been woven into traditional ayahuasca use because purging is generally an unavoidable and natural part of ayahuasca consumption, not because purging itself has value."

i dont beleve this to be correct.

 

[soulfood]

"Purging has been woven into traditional ayahuasca use because purging is generally an unavoidable and natural part of ayahuasca consumption, not because purging itself has value."

i dont beleve this to be correct.

Seconded. There's nothing more spirit liberating than vomiting in the face of demons :twisted:

 

[gibran2]

"Purging has been woven into traditional ayahuasca use because purging is generally an unavoidable and natural part of ayahuasca consumption, not because purging itself has value."

i dont beleve this to be correct.

Can you explain?

If purging itself has value, then why don’t traditional users of other entheogenic substances which ordinarily don’t cause purging, such as salvia, induce vomiting during their ritual use via other means or substances?

I’m not saying that purging within the context of the traditions doesn’t have value, I’m saying there’s no intrinsic value in purging (except for physical reasons, such as clearing out parasites, toxins, etc.) Purging accompanies ayahuasca consumption, and as a result it was incorporated into the tradition. Doesn’t that make sense?


I imagine if an entheogenic substance caused severe itchiness, then scratching would become incorporated into the ritual. Scratch those demons right out of your skin!

 

[jamie]

I can explain. You say that it is not becasue purging has any value..which, within an indigenous context is not too objective..since they utilize a whole plethora of emetic plants specifically to induce purging..they even make specific brews just for that reason..if purging has no value than why do you find cases of induced purging in so many vastly diverse instances of indigenous healing?

I understand what you are saying about purging with ayahuasca taking on the role it does due to the fact that the brew induces the purge..I just dont see what your point is when you try to seperate the form from the function like that.

"I’m saying there’s no intrinsic value in purging (except for physical reasons, such as clearing out parasites, toxins, etc.)"

Isn't that sort of the application of a double standard?

 

[jamie]

Im not saying that there is not 2% yields in some vine..but if that is true..I can consume 1-2 grams of harmalas and not even purge at times..if the maya white vine does contain 2%..than minxx regularily consumes 2200-3400 mg of harmalas..that seems like a rediculously large dose there..and she alsmot never purges either..

 

[polytrip]

I rarely purge. I would even say it almost never happens. The last time is more than three years ago now.
I think there's a strong psychological factor involved in purging. A sort of auto-suggestion.
If you believe that you won't hold it down, then you probably won't.
I don't see the nessecity of it. If it happens it happens, but i'm not missing it.

 

[ragabr]

It's been said multiple times, but SWIM consumes here 75-100g brews of Aya specifically for its visionary properties. If she just wants to orally activate DMT, she will sip off of much weaker brews, similar to what Ms Minxx refers to as microdosing.

She's only purged from high dosage of Caapi once, her very first time, and that was in a very poorly chosen set/setting. She does get extremely dizzy when standing and moving around, and lethargic.

 

[gibran2]

I can explain. You say that it is not becasue purging has any value..which, within an indigenous context is not too objective..since they utilize a whole plethora of emetic plants specifically to induce purging..they even make specific brews just for that reason..if purging has no value than why do you find cases of induced purging in so many vastly diverse instances of indigenous healing?

I understand what you are saying about purging with ayahuasca taking on the role it does due to the fact that the brew induces the purge..I just dont see what your point is when you try to seperate the form from the function like that.

"I’m saying there’s no intrinsic value in purging (except for physical reasons, such as clearing out parasites, toxins, etc.)"

Isn't that sort of the application of a double standard?

I’m not sure I got my point across regarding purging. In an indigenous community where intestinal parasites are endemic, purging may have great value to the extent that it removes parasites and toxins from the body.

But I sometimes get the impression (maybe wrongly) that some members consider the ayahuasca purge to be a vital element of the ayahuasca experience. Some people may feel that a “spiritual cleansing” or “psychological catharsis” is best accompanied by a literal bodily cleansing, and then I can see that there is benefit when this happens. But I personally don’t believe that a physical purge is necessary (for me) for psychological/spiritual cleansing to occur.

My other point was that any physical side-effect of a drug used in an indigenous context is likely to be incorporated into ceremonies and beliefs. There’s nothing wrong or unusual with this, and I was stating it as a supposition.

Regarding alkaloid content of various caapi – it would be interesting to see the results of an experiment where an experienced aya drinker (such as yourself or Minxx) consumes between 2 and 3.5 grams of extracted caapi alkaloids and compares the results with an equivalent amount of brew.