Unnecessarily Large Doses of Caapi

[jamie]

^ yeah I dont purge often with caapi only brews so I know what you are saying..I think if the purge happens then for me at least it is happeneing for some sort of reason..something is going on inside of me that based on prior experiences doesnt always happen. Then there is the subjective effects of the purge. Bufotenine for insance is much more likely to make me purge, although the subjective experience of a bufotenine purge vs that of an ayahuasca purge are vastly different things..bufotenine will feel more like a toxic overload, where an ayahuasca purge really does feel more like a cleaning out of old physical/psychological junk.

I have never taken extracted caapi alkaloids but I have been experimenting with extracted rue alkaloids and i highly doubt i could ever ingest 1 let alone 2 grams of that stuff..500mg of that stuff I think would be far too much to deal with for me...interestingly I also find that the difference between these rue crystals and that of a caapi tea is not as pronounced as some make it out to be..the glow of these rue xtals is very similar to the caapi glow, with a few minor differences betweem them..even at 25mg I feel a strong glow comparable to say, 20g of caapi.

 

[Apoc]

Im not saying that there is not 2% yields in some vine..but if that is true..I can consume 1-2 grams of harmalas and not even purge at times..if the maya white vine does contain 2%..than minxx regularily consumes 2200-3400 mg of harmalas..that seems like a rediculously large dose there..and she alsmot never purges either..

hmmmm, interesting. That changes my view then. I was kind of assuming that anyone who takes huge doses of harmalas or caapi is going to feel very sick and not have a good time. I have only experienced a harmala sickness once and it was not something I want to repeat..... but that was syrian rue. Maybe caapi doesn't sicken people as much. Maybe I'll give harmalas another chance.

I have never taken extracted caapi alkaloids but I have been experimenting with extracted rue alkaloids and i highly doubt i could ever ingest 1 let alone 2 grams of that stuff..500mg of that stuff I think would be far too much to deal with for me...interestingly I also find that the difference between these rue crystals and that of a caapi tea is not as pronounced as some make it out to be..the glow of these rue xtals is very similar to the caapi glow, with a few minor differences betweem them..even at 25mg I feel a strong glow comparable to say, 20g of caapi.

Also interesting. You say you can drink big doses of caapi, yet only half a gram of rue makes you feel shitty?

 

[jamie]

I meant half a gram or a gram of harmalas extracted from rue..not unextracted rue.

 

[gibran2]

Im not saying that there is not 2% yields in some vine..but if that is true..I can consume 1-2 grams of harmalas and not even purge at times..if the maya white vine does contain 2%..than minxx regularily consumes 2200-3400 mg of harmalas..that seems like a rediculously large dose there..and she alsmot never purges either..

I have never taken extracted caapi alkaloids but I have been experimenting with extracted rue alkaloids and i highly doubt i could ever ingest 1 let alone 2 grams of that stuff..500mg of that stuff I think would be far too much to deal with for me...interestingly I also find that the difference between these rue crystals and that of a caapi tea is not as pronounced as some make it out to be..the glow of these rue xtals is very similar to the caapi glow, with a few minor differences betweem them..even at 25mg I feel a strong glow comparable to say, 20g of caapi.

Your first quote is why I suggested you experiment with high doses of extracted alkaloids. On the one hand, you doubt that the yields some of us are getting are realistic based on the amount of caapi tea you and Minxx regularly consume, yet you say you wouldn’t even consider consuming an equivalent amount of extracted alkaloids.

Here’s a more detailed version of the experiment I suggested previously:

1 - Prepare enough caapi tea for two strong doses.
2 - Divide the tea into two equal portions.
3 – Consume one portion and note effects.
4 – Extract alkaloids from the other portion and note quantity.
5 – Consume extracted alkaloids and note effects.

This experiment would be very enlightening, both to you and the Nexus community: You’d get to know how strong your caapi really is and we would all get to know how effects of isolated alkaloids compare to alkaloids in a traditional brew.

 

[ms_manic_minxx]

To answer the OP: I love drinking very strong servings of Caapi because it feels extremely healthy and fortifying.

When I began drinking, 50g of vine crippled me. Now I can walk a straight line without shivering around 160g. (I think it's called "sea legs" in the Amazon? :d )

What I love more than anything when it comes to the effects of Caapi is how STABILIZING it feels. The more Caapi I consume more regularly, the more calm, balanced, and centered I am for days to come. I sought the vine originally to find some relief from depression, but I find that it regulates my entire being. I sleep better, my digestion functions better, I am more flexible, my stress response is completely different. On a whole, when harmalas are in my body, my body functions far more efficiently... and blissfully. :twisted:

 

[rOm]

I never managed to drunk 50 grams caapi brew yet...
But reading your experience MS Minxx I see I should carry on drinking, and it will be possible.
what I noticed strongly too is the afterglows that last days after...
It really does feel a reprogramming balance...

 

[prottel]

I agree with minxx. Harmalas can definitely be stabilizing and calming. Once after a particularly strong dose of harmine, around 750 mg, I felt very calm for a week afterward. Things that would usually stress me, did not. One problem is that I do not get this effect every time, but I do think that this effect gets stronger the higher the dose you work with. Probably similar to how iboga works. You need a flood dose to really kick a habit. My guess is that a flood dose of iboga is somewhere around 1000-2000mg harmine. And that is only at its peak. Iboga lasts for a much longer time.

 

[ms_manic_minxx]

Dagger, do you usually take that much harmine?

 

[joedirt]

To answer the OP: I love drinking very strong servings of Caapi because it feels extremely healthy and fortifying.

When I began drinking, 50g of vine crippled me. Now I can walk a straight line without shivering around 160g. (I think it's called "sea legs" in the Amazon? :d )

What I love more than anything when it comes to the effects of Caapi is how STABILIZING it feels. The more Caapi I consume more regularly, the more calm, balanced, and centered I am for days to come. I sought the vine originally to find some relief from depression, but I find that it regulates my entire being. I sleep better, my digestion functions better, I am more flexible, my stress response is completely different. On a whole, when harmalas are in my body, my body functions far more efficiently... and blissfully. :twisted:

I'd be curious to know if you start experiencing withdrawal like symptoms starting around 2-3 day's after you last 160g drink? I'm guessing that the MAOI activity is greatly increasing the concentrations of neurotransmitters in your brain which is likely to result in down regulation of the receptors. I'm guessing a few day's after this your brain will start re regulating and you'd feel some slightly withdrawal symptoms.

When I have a few beers these day's I can feel the effects 2-3 day's after my last drink...I get in a foul mood. I had to keep a long journal of foods vs moods to figure it out!

Cheers

 

[ms_manic_minxx]

I drink weekly because I did notice that after about 5-6 days of drinking, residual pangs of the anxiety I used to suffer slowly start creeping back into my thought process. Nowhere NEAR the degree it was before I started drinking, but I do notice a subtle shift in my consciousness. I've managed to live completely depression-free since I've started working with Caapi, and I never, ever, ever, ever want to go back to being in those places again.

I actually consider them more of a supplement... necessary nutrients for optimal brain function.

That's also why I don't care how scary it is (though it almost never is), how sick it makes me (though it almost never does), how bad it tastes (it's become tolerable), or worry whether or not if I break through (almost always with flying colors). Even if nothing "happens" and I just fall asleep, the harmalas still absolutely do profoundly healing work inside my body, and that is just as important as the visionary sequence.

 

[joedirt]

I drink weekly because I did notice that after about 5-6 days of drinking, residual pangs of the anxiety I used to suffer slowly start creeping back into my thought process. Nowhere NEAR the degree it was before I started drinking, but I do notice a subtle shift in my consciousness. I've managed to live completely depression-free since I've started working with Caapi, and I never, ever, ever, ever want to go back to being in those places again.

I actually consider them more of a supplement... necessary nutrients for optimal brain function.

That's also why I don't care how scary it is (though it almost never is), how sick it makes me (though it almost never does), how bad it tastes (it's become tolerable), or worry whether or not if I break through (almost always with flying colors). Even if nothing "happens" and I just fall asleep, the harmalas still absolutely do profoundly healing work inside my body, and that is just as important as the visionary sequence.

I wasn't questing your motives...just curious about any withdrawal effects.

If it makes you feel any better I feel somewhat similar about mushrooms....perhaps DMT as well...

 

[gibran2]

Paradoxically, continued use of caapi will tend to leave one in an improved mood even after discontnuing use. There isn’t down-regulation.

Here’s a quote from the Journal of Chromatography:

However, the possible medical benefits of ayahuasca are also of interest[6,15]. For example, the alkaloids in B. caapi have been demonstrated to be antioxidant with antimutagenic and antigenotoxic activity[19] as well as demonstrating putative psychotherapeutic and rehabilitative effects[20,21]. Ayahuasca use also appears to produce a persistent, long term up-regulation in the number of serotonin reuptake transporters in blood platelets, as has been documented in UDV members relative to ayahuasca-naïve age matched controls[22]. Conditions such as alcoholism with tendencies toward violence, suicidal behaviors, and severe depression[23–25] have all been correlated with decreased numbers of serotonin reuptake transporters, suggesting a potential therapeutic biochemical mechanism for ayahuasca treatment in these disorders.

 

[prottel]

Dagger, do you usually take that much harmine?

No. There was a period where I continually increased my dosage. It does seem like you get accustomed to higher doses if you work with it. For instance doing 750mg harmine a second time a week later, wouldn't feel as bad as the first week, so you can definitely get accustomed to strong doses. For me taking large amounts of harmalas is more about cleaning out disharmonious elements in the body and mind. By repeating the same dose, it will be easier to handle. That is why I want to push myself further with the harmalas, especially after trying just 5 gram of iboga, and found it to be decently strong at that dose. 20 gram at its peak would probably be much stronger than my try at 750mg harmine.

I have recently regained interest in working with high doses. Will try 300mg harmaline in a few days with a minute amount of dmt.

I drink weekly because I did notice that after about 5-6 days of drinking, residual pangs of the anxiety I used to suffer slowly start creeping back into my thought process.

I have also noticed that doing medium doses several days in a row tends to give me negative feelings. Imho by doing it daily like this you pull up emotions more and more each time. But medium doses may not be strong enough to move through the emotions completely, as with strong doses.

 

[joedirt]

Paradoxically, continued use of caapi will tend to leave one in an improved mood even after discontnuing use. There isn’t down-regulation.

Here’s a quote from the Journal of Chromatography:

However, the possible medical benefits of ayahuasca are also of interest[6,15]. For example, the alkaloids in B. caapi have been demonstrated to be antioxidant with antimutagenic and antigenotoxic activity[19] as well as demonstrating putative psychotherapeutic and rehabilitative effects[20,21]. Ayahuasca use also appears to produce a persistent, long term up-regulation in the number of serotonin reuptake transporters in blood platelets, as has been documented in UDV members relative to ayahuasca-naïve age matched controls[22]. Conditions such as alcoholism with tendencies toward violence, suicidal behaviors, and severe depression[23–25] have all been correlated with decreased numbers of serotonin reuptake transporters, suggesting a potential therapeutic biochemical mechanism for ayahuasca treatment in these disorders.

This is interesting! This has the effect of slowing the MAO break down of serotonin....and it also likely has the effect of keeping synaptic serotonin levels in a normal range.... very cool.

Thanks for sharing that!

 

[soulfood]

I think that when cooking ayahuasca many alkaloids are lost.

How so?

Seems to me the alkaloids are very heat stable. I've done some pretty long boils on caapi with VERY powerful effects.

 

[ganesh]

Im not saying that there is not 2% yields in some vine..but if that is true..I can consume 1-2 grams of harmalas and not even purge at times..if the maya white vine does contain 2%..than minxx regularily consumes 2200-3400 mg of harmalas..that seems like a rediculously large dose there..and she alsmot never purges either..

I have never taken extracted caapi alkaloids but I have been experimenting with extracted rue alkaloids and i highly doubt i could ever ingest 1 let alone 2 grams of that stuff..500mg of that stuff I think would be far too much to deal with for me...interestingly I also find that the difference between these rue crystals and that of a caapi tea is not as pronounced as some make it out to be..the glow of these rue xtals is very similar to the caapi glow, with a few minor differences betweem them..even at 25mg I feel a strong glow comparable to say, 20g of caapi.

Your first quote is why I suggested you experiment with high doses of extracted alkaloids. On the one hand, you doubt that the yields some of us are getting are realistic based on the amount of caapi tea you and Minxx regularly consume, yet you say you wouldn’t even consider consuming an equivalent amount of extracted alkaloids.

Here’s a more detailed version of the experiment I suggested previously:

1 - Prepare enough caapi tea for two strong doses.
2 - Divide the tea into two equal portions.
3 – Consume one portion and note effects.
4 – Extract alkaloids from the other portion and note quantity.
5 – Consume extracted alkaloids and note effects.

This experiment would be very enlightening, both to you and the Nexus community: You’d get to know how strong your caapi really is and we would all get to know how effects of isolated alkaloids compare to alkaloids in a traditional brew.

These are all excellent points raised.

Are extracted Caapi alk's every bit as potent as Rue ones? Hmmm... Perhaps because of the different profile of alk's, Rue is slightly more potent by weight (because it usually contains more harmaline than caapi does?) What do you guys think about that?

I am bumping this fascinating thread because i hope it can help to explain the potencies of vine in various forms, be it resins, liquids, etc. There is much confusion about this topic. Of course another issue is that sometimes people fail to differentiate between fresh and dried material.

What would 50g dried Caapi equate to in terms of fresh vine? 100, 150?

Was that comparison test ever carried out?

Why are supposed '30x' extracts often way off? I have some ideas, do you?

>Looking forward to some answers..