Unusual San Pedro alkaloids

[69ron]

San Pedro contains the following alkaloids:

Anhalinine, what does this do? I cannot find any information on this.

Anhalonidine is a sedative active at 100-250 mg with no psychoactive effects reported.

3,4-dimethoxyphenethylamine is inactive according to PiHKAL.

Hordenine is a fantastic antibiotic effective against many types of bacteria. It stimulates the release of norepinephrine in higher animals, and helps people lose weight. So it’s sort of a stimulant.

3-hydroxy-4,5-dimethoxyphenethylamine, what does this do? It’s molecular structure makes it look like it could be a psychedelic similar to mescaline. I can find no information on it.

4-hydroxy-3,5-dimethoxyphenethylamine from it’s molecular structure it also looks like it could be a psychedelic similar to mescaline. I can find no information on it.

Mescaline, well, everyone knows about that one. No point talking about that here.

3-methoxytyramine does what? I can’t find any information on this either.

Tyramine is an amino acid with stimulant properties. It causes vasoconstriction, increased heart rate, and increased blood pressure.


Why am I bringing this up?

Twice SWIM has experience a short and strong psychedelic state from a San Pedro alkaloid extract. The first time he experience this was from a burnt failed extract. He took 200 mg of the burnt extract and within 20 minutes or so he experienced strong colorful visual effects that lasted about 20 minutes and then faded. No other effects were felt because the mescaline was burnt to a crisp.

The next time he experienced this from a successful alkaloid extract that used no heat. That time he experience 2 trips. The first started after about 20 minutes and lasted about 30 minutes and faded and then the mescaline trip started. The first trip felt nothing like mescaline and was purely a visual only trip like that felt from the burnt extract previously.

What alkaloid in San Pedro is doing that?

Is it possible to isolate it, and will it be effective on its own or does it only work if mescaline is taken with it?

I’m suspecting that it’s either 3-hydroxy-4,5-dimethoxyphenethylamine or 4-hydroxy-3,5-dimethoxyphenethylamine that is producing this very short half hour visual trip. The first time SWIM experienced this short colorful trip, all of the mescaline was destroyed because SWIM accidentally burnt the alkaloid extract, so he experience it on it’s own and so he believes it is active without mescaline.

Does anyone know anything about this?

 

[Phlux-]

iv also noticed this dosing with peruvian torch - there is a very colorfull trip that starts within 20-30 mins from dosing and lasts about 30 mins, then it subsides and it is usually at this stage that one purges(cactus tea/jelly) after that the mesc kicks in.
Would be very nice to isolate that alkaloid - i wonder if it is 1 alkaloid or a combination of 2 of more causing this.

 

[69ron]

Hmmm...very interesting. That's the first time I've seen someone other than SWIM notice that. According to several sources (but not all), Peruvian Torch contains the same alkaloids as San Pedro but in different ratios.

It would be fantastic if someone could find out which alkaloid it is. 3-hydroxy-4,5-dimethoxyphenethylamine or 4-hydroxy-3,5-dimethoxyphenethylamine is the most likely candidate. They are extremely similar chemically to mescaline.

Here we have 3-hydroxy-4,5-dimethoxyphenethylamine followed by mescaline. Do you see how similar they are?

 

[69ron]

So here's mescaline from Wiki:

Here's 4-TM (3,5-dimethoxy-4-methylthiophenethylamine) from Wiki:

3,5-dimethoxy-4-hydroxyphenylethylamine (4-hydroxy-3,5-dimethoxyphenethylamine) found in San Pedro is just like 3,5-dimethoxy-4-methylthiophenethylamine (4-TM) but instead of the S there's a OH in that position. 4-TM is active at doses of 20-40 mg with a duration of 10-15 hours with effects like that of LSD. So that small change in 4-TM made a mescaline like compound that is 10 times stronger. So maybe 3,5-dimethoxy-4-hydroxyphenylethylamine is also much stronger than mescaline. It's possible. There's only one way to find out and that's to isolate it and test it.

SWIM thinks he can isolate it from the mescaline. He believes that 3,5-dimethoxy-4-hydroxyphenylethylamine HCl is soluble in acetone and mescaline HCl is not.

 

[Phlux-]

aha - "HCl is soluble in acetone and mescaline HCl is not." so thats why very purified mesc suddenly kicks in after 2 hours. it lacks the other alkys that are active with different timeframes.
first time swim took torch he was seriously having a potent experience within 30 mins - swim thought - this is not normal - everywhere swim had read said mesc takes 2 hours to kick in.
I seriously seriously doubt that torch has a similar alkaloid makeup to pedro - i would say torch has a much broader range of alkys - much closer to peyotes large amount than pedros small amount.
so swim wouldnt want to loose those goodies in a acetone wash - but swim also wants the xylene to be 100% gone - how does swim wash his alkaloids to clean them without acetone ?

 

[Phlux-]

quoting me "first time SWIM took torch he was seriously having a potent experience within 30 mins - SWIM thought - this is not normal - everywhere SWIM had read said mesc takes 2 hours to kick in."

yeah - it was a serious exp - the cactus dose was high but it went away before the mesc kicked in and at that point the major difference in exp was noticed - felt like 2 different experiences in a row. that first part was very enjoyable and swim would like to test that - without mesc at least once.
Perhaps this alkaloid can be found in other cacti that lack mesc ?
there are a lot of cacti reported to be active without mesc in them - could this be part of the cause of those plants effex ?

 

[polytrip]

Did you obtain this from any specific strain of sanpedro? Or do you need special amounts or special ways of extracting it?
I only have had fairly weak experiences with sanpedro myself.

 

[69ron]

aha - "HCl is soluble in acetone and mescaline HCl is not." so thats why very purified mesc suddenly kicks in after 2 hours. it lacks the other alkys that are active with different timeframes.
first time swim took torch he was seriously having a potent experience within 30 mins - swim thought - this is not normal - everywhere swim had read said mesc takes 2 hours to kick in.

Exactly. That’s happened to SWIM twice, but with San Pedro. The first time he burnt his alkaloid extract and all the mescaline was destroyed so he only experienced the first short trip. It was very nice, very visual.

The fact that burning the alkaloid extract destroyed the mescaline, but not the other active alkaloid mean that it’s far more heat stable than mescaline. That would also point in the direction of 4-hydroxy-3,5-dimethoxyphenethylamine.

Mescaline freebase has a melting point of 35-36 C.

4-hydroxy-3,5-dimethoxyphenethylamine freebase is present in both San Pedro and Peruvian Torch and has a melting point of 152-154 C. That’s very high. The boiling point of a compound is usually roughly about twice the melting point. So if SWIM’s mescaline all burnt it’s possible that what remained was 4-hydroxy-3,5-dimethoxyphenethylamine because it’s much more heat stable.

so swim wouldnt want to loose those goodies in a acetone wash - but swim also wants the xylene to be 100% gone - how does swim wash his alkaloids to clean them without acetone ?

Xylene is toxic and has a very strong unpleasant order and flavor. You absolutely do not want to digest it.

You could wash with d-limonene to get out the xylene and leave behind all the other alkaloids you extracted. D-limonene is a non-toxic biodegradable solvent extracted from lemons. Traces of d-limonene left in the final product are actually good for you. D-limonene is sold as a solvent, a food flavoring, and also as a nutritional supplement in doses of about 1000 mg.

Why use xylene at all? You can perform an extraction using d-limonene instead. It actually works better than xylene and smells like delicious citrus fruit instead of toxic waste.

quoting me "first time SWIM took torch he was seriously having a potent experience within 30 mins - SWIM thought - this is not normal - everywhere SWIM had read said mesc takes 2 hours to kick in."

yeah - it was a serious exp - the cactus dose was high but it went away before the mesc kicked in and at that point the major difference in exp was noticed - felt like 2 different experiences in a row. that first part was very enjoyable and swim would like to test that - without mesc at least once.
Perhaps this alkaloid can be found in other cacti that lack mesc ?
there are a lot of cacti reported to be active without mesc in them - could this be part of the cause of those plants effex ?

Yeah, mescaline doesn’t come on and then fade and then come back on with different effects. That’s not mescaline doing that. SWIM has 99% pure white mescaline and it doesn’t do that. The first thing you feel from it is a euphoric MDMA like stimulation. You might notice the pleasant stimulant feeling from it after about 30 minutes or so, that’s about it. It gradually comes on and you don’t notice much until about 2 hours into it. It steadily increases in potency until about 4 hours when it finally peaks and then fades away slowly for another 8 hours or so.

The first trip in the two trip phase is not stimulating at all for SWIM, but it’s very visual. The visuals are different from mescaline. The whole feeling of it is different from mescaline.

Did you obtain this from any specific strain of sanpedro? Or do you need special amounts or special ways of extracting it?
I only have had fairly weak experiences with sanpedro myself.

I don’t know. SWIM only noticed it twice from San Pedro. Maybe a special strain is needed, maybe not. I just don’t know. Probably all San Pedro contains this other alkaloid but sometimes maybe the amount is too small to notice it.

Both times SWIM noticed this other effect from San Pedro, the San Pedro was purchased on-line from two different vendors.

 

[polytrip]

Well, peyote must contain other psycho-active phen's, more powerfull then mescaline as well, because i once noticed the effects of chewing one single peyote knob and to me it seems that one single knob cannot have enough mescaline in it for a threshold dose wich is, if i'm right somewhere around 100 mg.

 

[polytrip]

Yeah, mescaline doesn’t come on and then fade and then come back on with different effects. That’s not mescaline doing that. SWIM has 99% pure white mescaline and it doesn’t do that. The first thing you feel from it is a euphoric MDMA like stimulation. You might notice the pleasant stimulant feeling from it after about 30 minutes or so, that’s about it. It gradually comes on and you don’t notice much until about 2 hours into it. It steadily increases in potency until about 4 hours when it finally peaks and then fades away slowly for another 8 hours or so

I's so strange that everywhere you read something about mescaline, it's always compared with LSD, while with all my cactus experiences i always had something of an MDMA-like feeling first. ( i think even slightly more like MDEA, wich is more stimulating ) And it always very, very gradually became more psychedelic. Initially there is always this XTC-like sensation, first. I always found that strange, because i never heard or read of anybody comparing mescaline with XTC, but always with LSD, wich never does this. Your description is actually the first description i read that really does fit my personal experience with it.

 

[69ron]

Yeah, mescaline doesn’t come on and then fade and then come back on with different effects. That’s not mescaline doing that. SWIM has 99% pure white mescaline and it doesn’t do that. The first thing you feel from it is a euphoric MDMA like stimulation. You might notice the pleasant stimulant feeling from it after about 30 minutes or so, that’s about it. It gradually comes on and you don’t notice much until about 2 hours into it. It steadily increases in potency until about 4 hours when it finally peaks and then fades away slowly for another 8 hours or so

I's so strange that everywhere you read something about mescaline, it's always compared with LSD, while with all my cactus experiences i always had something of an MDMA-like feeling first. ( i think even slightly more like MDEA, wich is more stimulating ) And it always very, very gradually became more psychedelic. Initially there is always this XTC-like sensation, first. I always found that strange, because i never heard or read of anybody comparing mescaline with XTC, but always with LSD, wich never does this. Your description is actually the first description i read that really does fit my personal experience with it.

Most “mescaline” being sold on the street is not really mescaline at all, it’s usually over priced LSD, or an RC. It’s very rare to find real mescaline being sold anywhere in the world, so most people who think they’ve had mescaline really haven’t. If you extract and isolate it from San Pedro or the Torch, then you know you have authentic mescaline.

There are some similarities between LSD and mescaline. I think mescaline is more close to LSD than mushrooms, but still they are worlds apart. Mescaline doesn’t feel like LSD and the visual effects are very different from LSD. The feeling of the trip is very MDMA like. It’s sort of like a full psychedelic version of MDMA or something similar. It is not a tryptamine or lysergic acid derivative. It’s a phenethylamine like MDMA. It really belongs in a whole different class of psychedelics. There are basically three main classes of psychedelics. You have tryptamines like DMT, mushrooms, etc., and then you have lysergic acid derivative like LSD and LSA, and then you have phenethylamine based hallucinogens like mescaline, 2C-I, etc.

SWIM really likes really low doses of pure mescaline. It’s a great all day stimulant when taken in the morning. It goes really well with coffee.

I’m interested in this other short acting psychedelic phenethylamine. There are many times when an all day mescaline trip is just not convenient. Most phenethylamines are long lasting. It would be nice to have a short acting psychedelic phenethylamine for those occasions when SWIM is desiring a mescaline style trip but doesn’t have all day for it.

 

[69ron]

SWIM did a test 90 minutes ago. He took a full San Pedro alkaloid extract and removed the non-mescaline alkaloids from it by washing the mescaline hydrochloride with acetone a few times followed by 99% isopropyl alcohol. He took the combined washes and evaporated them.

The alkaloids that were washed off the mescaline were very sticky once dry. He added calcium carbonate to it and mixed it a little to help make it less sticky. This trick works really well. He was able to get it to a powdery state that could easily be measured.

He calculated what a 25 mg dose of extract would be by adjusting for it being diluted with calcium carbonate.

11:00 pm, he took 25 mg of the alkaloids orally without any water. He wanted to see what it tasted like. It was extremely bitter and difficult to describe. It almost immediately made his mouth numb.

11:20 pm, his mouth was much more numb. He felt a pleasant tingling sensation in his body that's similar to THH. He felt somehow different but there were no visual effects. It was a smooth and pleasant sort of soft feeling. It felt like it might become psychedelic if the dose was stronger.

12:00 am, his tongue was still numb. He still felt a pleasant tingling sensation. There were no visuals, but things sort of looked animated.

12:30 am, the effects are starting to fade but are still present. His tongue is still slightly numb.

1:00 am, the effects got stronger again, sort of a second wave. He feels more body tingling sensations, some euphoria. His tongue is still numb a little tiny bit. Maybe some was absorbed sublingually and that's why there's a second peak? The effects are the same though and nothing at all like mescaline, more like 300 mg of THH orally.

The overall experience was pleasant. There was mild euphoria at times and it seemed to be on the verge of becoming psychedelic. Next time he will try a larger dose and see what happens.

 

[Phlux-]

swim noticed that his acetone washes when dried are also sticky - perhaps a different salt form is required for them to be solid at room temp - or perhaps it was impurities in it that softened it.
The 1 and only reason swim is not using d-limonene yet for everthing is because he has so much spice and mesc left it will be while before he needs to extract again and no local sources had been found - swim has no cc so it wont be ordered online but swim just found a place locally that he can get some.

 

[VisualDistortion]

Maybe you could try a different acid for the other alkoloids to render them in a crystal salt from, like fumaric acid or tartic acid. Just a thought

 

[polytrip]

SWIM really likes really low doses of pure mescaline. It’s a great all day stimulant when taken in the morning. It goes really well with coffee.

Jorkest posted a trhead, containing a link towards an article about research being done on regular peyote users. It sayed that regular peyote users where generally happier and mentally more stable than non-users.
Do you think mescaline could work as a mild antidepressant or nootropic drug like deprenyl?

 

[69ron]

I can definitely see small doses of mescaline being used as antidepressant. SWIM has taken small non-hallucinogenic doses of mescaline HCl several days in a row and never noticed any tolerance to it. Its a mood lifter, makes you feel closer to other people, it energizes you a little bit, it’s fantastic.

I don’t know about “nootropic”. I think that’s more of a fantasy than reality. I don’t believe “nootropics” really exist.

I've seen nothing but positive reports on long term peyote users. In one study they compared long term regular peyote users to alcoholics and the alcoholics scored really badly on a lot of the tests while the peyote users scores as well as normal people did. Makes you wonder why peyote is illegal and alcohol is not.

 

[69ron]

If we want to legalize psychedelics, as I do, we should start with peyote. There are a ton of studies on it and nearly all of them are positive. “Flash backs” are absolutely unheard of with peyote. There have been no “bad trips” reported among Indians using peyote. Pretty much all of the studies show that peyote is much better for you than alcohol is. I've seen several studies that show that long term peyote users are mentally more fit, and also get sick less than non-peyote users. Peyote has antibiotics in it, it’s quite nutritional, and regular use of mescaline seems to help stabilize people emotionally.

The Native American Church has thousands of members who use peyote regularly and some of their members are high ranking members of the military, many of them work in the US government, many are doctors, scientists, etc. There’s lots of good proof within this group of people that psychedelics like peyote are not at all harmful to you.

 

['Coatl]

This is why I think using the whole cactus is so much better than any sort of extraction... with the whole cactus you get ALL the compounds which make for a better experience!

If we want to legalize psychedelics, as I do, we should start with peyote. There are a ton of studies on it and nearly all of them are positive. “Flash backs” are absolutely unheard of with peyote. There have been no “bad trips” reported among Indians using peyote. Pretty much all of the studies show that peyote is much better for you than alcohol is. I've seen several studies that show that long term peyote users are mentally more fit, and also get sick less than non-peyote users. Peyote has antibiotics in it, it’s quite nutritional, and regular use of mescaline seems to help stabilize people emotionally.

Here! Here! I say legalize Peyote, Ayahuasca and Iboga FIRST!

 

[polytrip]

I can definitely see small doses of mescaline being used as antidepressant. SWIM has taken small non-hallucinogenic doses of mescaline HCl several days in a row and never noticed any tolerance to it. Its a mood lifter, makes you feel closer to other people, it energizes you a little bit, it’s fantastic.

I don’t know about “nootropic”. I think that’s more of a fantasy than reality. I don’t believe “nootropics” really exist.

I've seen nothing but positive reports on long term peyote users. In one study they compared long term regular peyote users to alcoholics and the alcoholics scored really badly on a lot of the tests while the peyote users scores as well as normal people did. Makes you wonder why peyote is illegal and alcohol is not.

Well, if something makes you more emotionally stable and feel better without it having all kinds of unpleasant side-effects, it's a nootropic to me. Many synthetic phen's are considered to be nootropics, but we all know that most of them ended up from the military to the street. Deprenyl and ritalin are used by many people as 'inteligence-boosters', although especially ritalin is known to have some unpleasant side-effects and be addictive.
Mescalin might have the potential to replace those synthetics and do a much better job without being addictive or causing nerve-damage or hypertensive crisis, etc maybe.

 

[69ron]

I would say it's worth looking into. There’s a huge body of evidence to draw from showing that long term mescaline use is relatively safe. It's been used for thousands of years. We have Native Americans alive today that have used peyote their entire adult lifetime and are in their 90s and they appear to have suffered no ill effects from it at all. They will tell you it has been a beneficial part of their life.

I think having these older people talk about peyote use brings a very unique perspective on peyote.

You can’t say things like “sure you say it’s harmless now, but what will you be like after using it for decades and you’re a old man dying of cancer and all sort of other ailments caused by using the drug?” That type of argument holds no water when talking with a peyote user in their 90s who’s healthier than you are.

You can’t say things like “it will make you insane and give you flashbacks” because these people in their 90s are mentally fit and never had a single flashback their entire lifetime.

You can’t say things like “it will make you turn to a life of drug abuse and crime” because these people are very respected members of their community who go to church regularly, raised their children to be good people, helped raise their grand children, worked in their community, graduated from collage, made a good living, etc.

None of those arguments fly when talking with a peyote user in their 90s. They will tell you, “I’ve used peyote all my life time and it has been a great help to me spiritually and has giving me strength and helped protect me from illness. Peyote is a cherished gift from God. It has helped my people for many generations and will continue to do so regardless of the lies you attempt to spread about it. Peyote is powerful medicine for the mind, the soul, the body, and the heart. It is far superior to your alcohol. I’ve seen alcohol use ruin many people’s lives leading to all sorts of mental and health problems, and only saw peyote heal people. How can a great society offer its people something as damaging as alcohol instead of something as helpful as peyote. Look at my neighbor. He’s an alcoholic. He suffers from liver damage, he is destroying his mind, he is no longer the man he once was. Look at me. I am healthy and strong and my mind is sharp. I have lived a long happy life. That is because I do not drunk alcohol, I use peyote.”