Vanity and Fake People

[Psilosopher?]

So I thought I'd bring this topic up for discussion. What do you guys make of vanity and fake people?

I aim for brutal honesty since their is so much ambiguity from sugar coating. So here goes...

I know of someone who is very "spiritual". Which means they take photos of themselves doing "spiritual" things and surrounds themselves in Hindu and Buddhist art. They are always going for photogenic shots of themselves. This particular person is attractive, and knows they are attractive. So they flaunt it at every possible moment. They also claim that they meditate, which to them, means sitting quietly for 5 minutes. They are deceiving themselves that they are spiritual. This person is essentially a hippy, but without knowing the meaning of what they surround themselves with. Always wearing hippy clothes and dreadlocked hair, because this person wants to be "unique". One can talk to a 9-5 dude in a business suit and find out that they are a very deep and philosophical person that hates their job and would much rather become a monk or something. What you wear means nothing, what you look like means nothing. Vanity is one of the vices of the ego, and is only a hindrance to enlightenment. In my books, a person ignorant in spirituality is better than one who fools themselves to think they're deep or spiritual, just because their material possessions originate from a deep and spiritual culture.

I feel sorry for this person. It's like being admitted to med school, and thinking you're already a doctor. You still need to pass the exams to be a doctor. Spiritual and philosophical people dive into the deep end. Those who engage only in small and trivial talk wade in the shallow end. This particular person is walking around the deep end, but not diving in.

Why do people do this? Why do people want attention so bad, that they are willing to be fake for it? Are they trying to self-validate their existence in the only way they know how?

 

[Ufostrahlen]

Fake it till you make it isn't such a bad concept, right? One might learn something along the way. If you feel annoyed by the person, leave him/her alone.

Also the word "brutal" exposes your thinking.

 

[Psilosopher?]

Fake it till you make it isn't such a bad concept, right? One might learn something along the way. If you feel annoyed by the person, leave him/her alone.

Also the word "brutal" exposes your thinking.

I don't feel annoyed by them in the slightest. I'm not annoyed by anything really. I'm just curious as to the nature of vanity.

If I were to question this person, I would NOT tell them in a brutally honest way. My way of thinking is to get the other person thinking. I don't tell people what they should or shouldn't be doing. I just get them to question themselves, and they will find the answer on their own.

The reason why I was brutally honest here is so that a clear picture is made about the person's personality. That's it. Just stating facts.

 

[pitubo]

Why do people do this? Why do people want attention so bad, that they are willing to be fake for it? Are they trying to self-validate their existence in the only way they know how?

You are almost stating it explicitly yourself. They feel (and believe) that they need others to validate them. Hence the perpetual need for attention and admiration. The need for clear authorities in the form of idols and icons is part of the syndrome. (Very bad cases eventually want to be the very icons and idols, when the need for attention and validation turns into a need to be the single, exceptional, focus of it.)

I think this is a developmental disorder. A small child needs to receive and perceive a certain amount of attention and validation in order to develop emotionally and psychologically. This needs not be overdone, possibly the natural forms of affection and feedback are even sufficient. But when the attention and validation is actively withheld from a developing small child, perhaps by parents who are trying to get it for themselves from the child instead, the child is frustrated in its natural desires (and supplied with a bad example to boot.) The child gets stuck in its natural development and as subsequent developmental phases are also hampered as a consequence of the earlier derailing, a gradually building train wreck results.

Once you see it, you see it. But if you grow up in a culture where this syndrome is abundantly present in varying degrees of affliction, you might think that it is the normal way and feel confused every time you spontaneously experience a moment of ration awareness.

Some parts of the socio-economical system seem to thrive on the droves of these people who need constant external impulses to feel alive.

 

[pitubo]

Fake it till you make it isn't such a bad concept, right? One might learn something along the way.

What if faking it only ever makes it more fake? What if one only learns more errors?

 

[Psilosopher?]

Why do people do this? Why do people want attention so bad, that they are willing to be fake for it? Are they trying to self-validate their existence in the only way they know how?

You are almost stating it explicitly yourself. They feel (and believe) that they need others to validate them. Hence the perpetual need for attention and admiration. The need for clear authorities in the form of idols and icons is part of the syndrome. (Very bad cases eventually want to be the very icons and idols, when the need for attention and validation turns into a need to be the single, exceptional, focus of it.)

I think this is a developmental disorder. A small child needs to receive and perceive a certain amount of attention and validation in order to develop emotionally and psychologically. This needs not be overdone, possibly the natural forms of affection and feedback are even sufficient. But when the attention and validation is actively withheld from a developing small child, perhaps by parents who are trying to get it for themselves from the child instead, the child is frustrated in its natural desires (and supplied with a bad example to boot.) The child gets stuck in its natural development and as subsequent developmental phases are also hampered as a consequence of the earlier derailing, a gradually building train wreck results.

Once you see it, you see it. But if you grow up in a culture where this syndrome is abundantly present in varying degrees of affliction, you might think that it is the normal way and feel confused every time you spontaneously experience a moment of ration awareness.

Some parts of the socio-economical system seem to thrive on the droves of these people who need constant external impulses to feel alive.

Exactly. I was thinking the same thing. I don't know about the developmental disorder thing, since I see nothing pathological about it. Often those that are attractive are those who seek attention. And, of course, they get that attention. Perhaps they like the idea of being worshipped. You can see it in the media everywhere. We put rich and attractive people on pedestals, and indirectly say to people that this is success.

And yes, we do live in this culture. Self-portraits, or selfies I am told, is the most accessible way to show people that you're doing things. But why does that matter? Why do people want that thumbs up? It bloats their ego. I've seen people at university say "What the hell? I posted this selfie 20 minutes ago and it only has 4 likes?".

"Self love is a good thing, but self awareness is more important." - Louis CK.

[youtube]

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

So I thought I'd bring this topic up for discussion. What do you guys make of vanity and fake people?

I aim for brutal honesty since their is so much ambiguity from sugar coating. So here goes...

I know of someone who is very "spiritual". Which means they take photos of themselves doing "spiritual" things and surrounds themselves in Hindu and Buddhist art. They are always going for photogenic shots of themselves. This particular person is attractive, and knows they are attractive. So they flaunt it at every possible moment. They also claim that they meditate, which to them, means sitting quietly for 5 minutes. They are deceiving themselves that they are spiritual. This person is essentially a hippy, but without knowing the meaning of what they surround themselves with. Always wearing hippy clothes and dreadlocked hair, because this person wants to be "unique". One can talk to a 9-5 dude in a business suit and find out that they are a very deep and philosophical person that hates their job and would much rather become a monk or something. What you wear means nothing, what you look like means nothing. Vanity is one of the vices of the ego, and is only a hindrance to enlightenment. In my books, a person ignorant in spirituality is better than one who fools themselves to think they're deep or spiritual, just because their material possessions originate from a deep and spiritual culture.

I feel sorry for this person. It's like being admitted to med school, and thinking you're already a doctor. You still need to pass the exams to be a doctor. Spiritual and philosophical people dive into the deep end. Those who engage only in small and trivial talk wade in the shallow end. This particular person is walking around the deep end, but not diving in.

Why do people do this? Why do people want attention so bad, that they are willing to be fake for it? Are they trying to self-validate their existence in the only way they know how?

Why does it bother you?

You know you are real, yes? You have your own life and your own spirituality, yes?

Why not just let this person be whoever they want, and rather than judge their decisions, just let them be.

I mean their actions are not affecting you, so why not just let them live their lives?

(In some Hindu sects just looking upon the image of a deity is considered a form of prayer/worship, so just by having images of Gods around can be considered a spiritual act)

It is easy to see the faults of others but difficult to see one's own. A man winnows his neighbour's faults like chaff but conceals his own as a cunning gambler conceal his die.
~ Buddha

“If someone isn’t what others want them to be, the others become angry. Everyone seems to have a clear idea of how other people should lead their lives, but none about his or her own.” ? Paulo Coelho

-eg

 

[Psilosopher?]

So I thought I'd bring this topic up for discussion. What do you guys make of vanity and fake people?

I aim for brutal honesty since their is so much ambiguity from sugar coating. So here goes...

I know of someone who is very "spiritual". Which means they take photos of themselves doing "spiritual" things and surrounds themselves in Hindu and Buddhist art. They are always going for photogenic shots of themselves. This particular person is attractive, and knows they are attractive. So they flaunt it at every possible moment. They also claim that they meditate, which to them, means sitting quietly for 5 minutes. They are deceiving themselves that they are spiritual. This person is essentially a hippy, but without knowing the meaning of what they surround themselves with. Always wearing hippy clothes and dreadlocked hair, because this person wants to be "unique". One can talk to a 9-5 dude in a business suit and find out that they are a very deep and philosophical person that hates their job and would much rather become a monk or something. What you wear means nothing, what you look like means nothing. Vanity is one of the vices of the ego, and is only a hindrance to enlightenment. In my books, a person ignorant in spirituality is better than one who fools themselves to think they're deep or spiritual, just because their material possessions originate from a deep and spiritual culture.

I feel sorry for this person. It's like being admitted to med school, and thinking you're already a doctor. You still need to pass the exams to be a doctor. Spiritual and philosophical people dive into the deep end. Those who engage only in small and trivial talk wade in the shallow end. This particular person is walking around the deep end, but not diving in.

Why do people do this? Why do people want attention so bad, that they are willing to be fake for it? Are they trying to self-validate their existence in the only way they know how?

Why does it bother you?

You know you are real, yes? You have your own life and your own spirituality, yes?

Why not just let this person be whoever they want, and rather than judge their decisions, just let them be.

I mean their actions are not affecting you, so why not just let them live their lives?

(In some Hindu sects just looking upon the image of a deity is considered a form of prayer/worship, so just by having images of Gods around can be considered a spiritual act)

It is easy to see the faults of others but difficult to see one's own. A man winnows his neighbour's faults like chaff but conceals his own as a cunning gambler conceal his die.
~ Buddha

“If someone isn’t what others want them to be, the others become angry. Everyone seems to have a clear idea of how other people should lead their lives, but none about his or her own.” ? Paulo Coelho

-eg

It doesn't bother me. At all. Like really, I NEVER get angry, jealous, arrogant or vain. I relinquished all those feelings a long time ago. But I still see them in people. I'm just looking for a rational and intelligent discussion on the nature of vanity. I don't even communicate with this person in any way, shape or form. I let them be. But I still like to think about their choices. It's a way for me to learn about my own faults and about the very fluid and dynamic nature of humanity. Kinda surprised to see yourself and Ufostrahlen attack my OP, with the idea that I harbour negative feelings towards this person. I don't. I unconditionally love every single being that inhabits this universe. Whether they are my family, friends, pacifists or terrorists. All life is sacred.

(In some Hindu sects just looking upon the image of a deity is considered a form of prayer/worship, so just by having images of Gods around can be considered a spiritual act)

This act is only spiritual if it is a constant reminder of what it stands for. Many people adorn their houses with motifs of their beliefs, but are not even followers of their faith. It's their way of making appearances to visitors. "See, I am a good Christian/Muslim/Hindu etc". Believe me, I've seen this A LOT. Rites and rituals have no meaning, unless you give it meaning.

 

[pitubo]

I don't know about the developmental disorder thing, since I see nothing pathological about it.

Once you see it, you see it. But if you grow up in a culture where this syndrome is abundantly present in varying degrees of affliction, you might think that it is the normal way and feel confused every time you spontaneously experience a moment of ration awareness.

You can see it in the media everywhere. We put rich and attractive people on pedestals, and indirectly say to people that this is success.

Some parts of the socio-economical system seem to thrive on the droves of these people who need constant external impulses to feel alive.

And yes, we do live in this culture. Self-portraits, or selfies I am told, is the most accessible way to show people that you're doing things. But why does that matter? Why do people want that thumbs up? It bloats their ego. I've seen people at university say "What the hell? I posted this selfie 20 minutes ago and it only has 4 likes?".

One of the great gifts that psychedelics has given me is the renewed and greatly intensified awareness of reality often being a parody of itself. I hope that you too can enjoy the show in awe and amazement. It really helps to stop feeling agonized about the things you cannot change with bare hands.

Heal the sick, but don't fight windmills.

Why does it bother you?

You know you are real, yes? You have your own life and your own spirituality, yes?

Why not just let this person be whoever they want, and rather than judge their decisions, just let them be.

I mean their actions are not affecting you, so why not just let them live their lives?

Well why does it bother you that these things are discussed here? The discussion is not affecting these people nor you is it?

Besides, Bodhisativa clearly expressed his concern more than judgement in the thread starter. And what if these people are afflicted by a sad disorder of sorts? Should we as fellow human beings not be concerned then?

(In some Hindu sects just looking upon the image of a deity is considered a form of prayer/worship, so just by having images of Gods around can be considered a spiritual act)

What if that's just another example of the nutty things co-symptomatic of religion? (Yes, it is my stated personal belief that most forms of religion are a mental affliction.)

Rites and rituals have no meaning, unless you give it meaning.

There. Reality has no meaning. Humans experience meaning as a natural part of our cognitive processing. Sometimes the "meaning giving" is derailed. That is where religion likes to rear its ugly head. Really people, why is it so hard to see that all these thought systems with gods on pedestals is just a more intricately contorted example of the vanities that this thread is about?

 

[Psilosopher?]

One of the great gifts that psychedelics has given me is the renewed and greatly intensified awareness of reality often being a parody of itself. I hope that you too can enjoy the show in awe and amazement. It really helps to stop feeling agonized about the things you cannot change with bare hands.

Oh yeah. I am enjoying the show in awe and amazement. I learn more about the strange and weird things modern humans do every day. And it makes me smile, but also makes me question it more.

(In some Hindu sects just looking upon the image of a deity is considered a form of prayer/worship, so just by having images of Gods around can be considered a spiritual act)

What if that's just another example of the nutty things co-symptomatic of religion? (Yes, it is my stated personal belief that most forms of religion are a mental affliction.)

Religion is a culture. Nothing more, nothing less. All religions are based on the same premise, something bigger than us. The reason why we exist. That is the true faith. It has no name, no gendered God. It just is. Nathaniel.Dread's signature is a good summary of this. "There are many paths up the same mountain."

 

[pitubo]

Religion is a culture. Nothing more, nothing less. All religions are based on the same premise, something bigger than us. The reason why we exist. That is the true faith. It has no name, no gendered God. It just is. Nathaniel.Dread's signature is a good summary of this. "There are many paths up the same mountain."

Oh how nice it would be if that were all the case. But I don't think any of the big religious systems, to which the overwhelming majority of religious people subscribe, work like that. Those are all about a guy in the sky, being represented by a dude in a fancy dress wearing a funny hat who is bigger than you. Some demand that you submit to the wishes of that dude with the hat or the guy in the sky is gonna rain it onto you. Some have more subtle and abstract ways of intimidating you into submission to external authorities and dogmas. And people love it, by the droves. By comparison, the religions with no names and no authorities are not very popular.

When did you last check if everyone is actually going up the same mountain? (or stuck in the same pit?)

 

[Psilosopher?]

Religion is a culture. Nothing more, nothing less. All religions are based on the same premise, something bigger than us. The reason why we exist. That is the true faith. It has no name, no gendered God. It just is. Nathaniel.Dread's signature is a good summary of this. "There are many paths up the same mountain."

Oh how nice it would be if that were all the case. But I don't think any of the big religious systems, to which the overwhelming majority of religious people subscribe, work like that. Those are all about a guy in the sky, being represented by a dude in a fancy dress wearing a funny hat who is bigger than you. Some demand that you submit to the wishes of that dude with the hat or the guy in the sky is gonna rain it onto you. Some have more subtle and abstract ways of intimidating you into submission to external authorities and dogmas. And people love it, by the droves. By comparison, the religions with no names and no authorities are not very popular.

When did you last check if everyone is actually going up the same mountain? (or stuck in the same pit?)

Yeah, clearly reality is not all fine and dandy. What you say is right. It's a culture dominated by fear. The fear of being punished, and the fear of death. I don't think they love it. I think they're scared. Contemporary society has a very negative image about death. It's the ultimate thing they're afraid of, because it IS ultimate. They don't want this life to end, and they're scared of what's beyond. Some believe in heaven and hell. I haven't died, so I can't say. All I know is that life is impermanent, and death is absolute. What's the point in being scared? It's a reason to live a fulfilling life with purpose, so that we may depart this plane of existence with a smile on our face. We are ripples in the cosmic ocean.

But yes, religion has been abused over the past thousand years. That pit is at the base of the mountain. You just gotta start climbing.

Another metaphor that can be used here is Plato's Cave:

Imprisonment in the cave

Plato begins by asking Glaucon (Plato's brother) to imagine a cave where people have been imprisoned from childhood. These prisoners are chained so that their legs and necks are fixed, forcing them to gaze at the wall in front of them and not look around at the cave, each other, or themselves. Behind the prisoners is a fire, and between the fire and the prisoners is a raised walkway with a low wall, behind which people walk carrying objects or puppets "of men and other living things". The people walk behind the wall so their bodies do not cast shadows for the prisoners to see, but the objects they carry do ("just as puppet showmen have screens in front of them at which they work their puppets". The prisoners cannot see any of this behind them and are only able to see the shadows cast upon the cave wall in front of them. The sounds of the people talking echo off the shadowed wall, and the prisoners falsely believe these sounds come from the shadows.

Socrates suggests that the shadows constitute reality for the prisoners because they have never seen anything else; they do not realize that what they see are shadows of objects in front of a fire, much less that these objects are inspired by real living things outside the cave.

Departure from the cave

Plato then supposes that one prisoner is freed, being forced to turn and see the fire. The light would hurt his eyes and make it hard for him to see the objects that are casting the shadows. If he is told that what he saw before was not real but instead that the objects he is now struggling to see are, he would not believe it. In his pain, Plato continues, the freed prisoner would turn away and run back to what he can see and is accustomed to, that is the shadows of the carried objects. He writes "...it would hurt his eyes, and he would escape by turning away to the things which he was able to look at, and these he would believe to be clearer than what was being shown to him."

Plato continues: "suppose...that someone should drag him...by force, up the rough ascent, the steep way up, and never stop until he could drag him out into the light of the sun." The prisoner would be angry and in pain, and this would only worsen when the radiant light of the sun overwhelms his eyes and blinds him. The sunlight is representative of the new reality and knowledge that the freed prisoner is experiencing.

Slowly, his eyes adjust to the light of the sun. First he can only see shadows. Gradually he can see the reflections of people and things in water and then later see the people and things themselves. Eventually he is able to look at the stars and moon at night until finally he can look upon the sun itself. Only after he can look straight at the sun "is he able to reason about it" and what it is.

Return to the cave
Plato continues, saying that the freed prisoner would think that the real world was superior to the world he experienced in the cave; "he would bless himself for the change, and pity [the other prisoners]" and would want to bring his fellow cave dwellers out of the cave and into the sunlight.

The returning prisoner, whose eyes have become acclimated to the light of the sun, would be blind when he re-enters the cave, just as he was when he was first exposed to the sun. The prisoners, according to Socrates, would infer from the returning man's blindness that the journey out of the cave had harmed him and that they should not undertake a similar journey. Socrates concludes that the prisoners, if they were able, would therefore reach out and kill anyone who attempted to drag them out of the cave.

So yeah. I feel like those of us who have walked out of the cave and have seen the light should free the others. It's not a matter of pride or arrogance. It's freedom.

 

[hug46]

Why do people do this? Why do people want attention so bad, that they are willing to be fake for it? Are they trying to self-validate their existence in the only way they know how?

Maybe they are not being fake as it is quite difficult to clarify as to what being fake actually is. Fakeness is a subjective concept. Maybe your (or my) definition as to what faking is maybe different to the fakee in question. Maybe they are acting in such a way that they feel genuinely satisfies certain needs related to mental baggage that has been accumulated along the road of life.
We all seek validation from our peers and not just from ourselves.

So yeah. I feel like those of us who have walked out of the cave and have seen the light should free the others. It's not a matter of pride or arrogance. It's freedom.

Deciding that one is the arbiter of what makes a person free is a dangerous path to go down.

 

[Psilosopher?]

Deciding that one is the arbiter of what makes a person free is a dangerous path to go down.

I am not truly free. But I have unfettered a few of my chains. There's quite a few people that have. It's not an I or a One. It's a We.

 

[Anamnesia]

Mountains are mountains. River are rivers.
Mountains are no longer mountains. River are no longer rivers.
Finally, mountains are once again just mountains. Rivers are once again just rivers.

Maybe our friend is phase two?

Remember that our reality is a mirror to our psyche. I say to you, who cares, this fake person? So what, we have a human being putting on some refined act. This person is a disgrace to real spirituality we think. Of course what I wear means nothing. Of course what I look like means nothing. But this very attitude means something, to who? You, through judging this person, judge yourself. You are looking in this situation at an aspect of your psyche reflected back to you by your reality. This is great news, because then it's time for integration. Energy follows the focus of our thoughts, right? It required energy to post your thoughts to this forum. I wonder who really is the one seeking validation of some sort. This person may be yes, but that action for him is to you in your reality a reflection of the same tendency in your self. Could it be?

I say these things not to jab or be mean. It is within the range of my experience that, having any time made a distinction between the real and the fake, I realize I am in error because that always is an indication of the presence of ego. You said vanity is one of the vices of the ego. I agree. So, for people like you and me and others around here we must pay extra attention to our habitual tendency to judge others, which of course is very very easy to do when we become so certain that our standard and style of life is obviously the right way of life. And all ways of life are valid, because in each life there is a diamond called a learning principle. Everyone of us is a Great Teacher, each in the possession of a golden seed. Some of us never provide the correct conditions for the seed to grow into a tree. There are examples of this in people everywhere around us. When we see these fakes, these squares, these know-nothing arrogant people we shouldn't if we can help it be bothered by whatever show they are putting on. Why should we be bothered? The fact we are bothered is our helper for integration. Because when we are bothered there is disapproval for someone else's way of living, as if we ourselves know the best way.

Basically, what I'm saying is, in contrast to a spirit of disapproval in the way others carry on all their fakeness, we should instead bow our heads and hands in prayer in thankfulness in true earnest towards those people, because, being so good at putting on some ridiculous act, they have given you the perfect opportunity to learn more about yourself by understanding what you are not! Contrast is the mother of teachers. If you decide to put on a mask, I the Creator will not be bothered by that at all. Even if the mask runs around completely deluded, having gone completely crazy that the mask is all there is, I the Creator can only be amused by the act. Enjoy the dance of enchanted spell-bound people. They are very useful to you.

We should know ourselves better than our friends.
We should know our enemies better than ourselves.

 

[Macre]

I don't even communicate with this person in any way, shape or form.

This is an interesting topic, thank you for posting. If you do not communicate with this person in any way, shape or form, what do you base your judgement on that they are fake?

We judge ourselves by our thoughts and intentions, but judge others by their actions.

Most members here go on deep psychedelic journeys and experience things so deep, that they could not be satisfactorily explained using normal language.

Some of us here could be described by others as looking like "hippies" or "spiritual people" and surround ourselves with spiritual objects. Some of us look like "normal" run of the mill people without a single Buddha in site. We still experience similar things.

Someone who does not communicate with us could not possibly know that, because they are judging us by what they see.

Without communication with this person, how do you know they are not are not a deep spiritual person?

Peace

Macre

 

[Koornut]

Age might be an important variable when considering the consistency/intensity of this behaviour.
Show me a 22yo that has shed all notions of self-importance through social validation and I will eat that statement. Like most things these days, it's probably a spectrum.

 

[thymamai]

Isn't the answer obvious?

We are not created equally. Certain people need love, others not so much. We are all built so differently. When I was a young adult I had the same trouble accepting these certain things other people were about that seemed shallow to me. But now, wow.. I don't care. After a little while on this earth you are catapulted so very far from everyone into your own abyss, your own activity, slingshotted away by the immutable tides of life, that differences become trivial. There is little difference at all, in fact.

I worry about my own issues. Life is marvelous, really. Just give it some time.

 

[Psilosopher?]

I don't have trouble accepting it. I'm just curious about what other people think about it. The whole idea of worshipping people is very strange to me. People are drawn to attractive things, whether it's a physical object, a setting or a person. But why? That's the whole point of the thread and the OP. Its not about judging the person I used as an example. It's about exploring the idea of vanity, and what it means.

 

[Anamnesia]

Can vanity and humility coexist together?