SpaceSeek said:
I, myself choose Veganism for the ethical reasons. Killing countless animals for taste/pleasure and nutritional benefits that can easily become met by eating plant-foods in my opinion is simply madness and unsustainable for a future that I want for my self and others.
Yes, my opinion is also that ethics take priority in the matter. Veganism is often misrepresented as only a diet - it is that too, but also a matter of social justice. "Be the change you want to see in the world."
dragonrider said:
I am a vegetarian...About so many animals it should be clear to anyone, by just observing them, that they are counscious beings.
Indeed mate, they are very conscious and though intellectually different from humans, they have the same ability to feel pain, pleasure and fear. They form complex social structures and are most certainly sentient.
May I point you to this
video to hear your further reflections opinion on the subject? I think it will add some perspective for our discussion.
endlessness said:
I think this false moral dichotomy of meat eating vs vegetarianism/veganism fails to look into the subtleties of the debate. What is more sustainable or creates less suffering, eating a chicken you grew in your own farm or game meat that was killed instantaneously after living a great life, versus getting some fruit or vegetable that came from hundreds or thousands of kms away from a big monoculture, plus with all the packaging and transport and the resources necessary for the technology used in all of that process?
I completely agree endlessness that we should be striving to reduce harm as much as possible. It's true that the level of sustainability can differ. Would you agree that eating locally-sourced plant based foods is the most sustainable from an Environmental perspective.
I would also like to offer the Social Justice perspective of reducing animal suffering. Would you agree that complex mammals are capable of feeling fear, pain and pleasure? And would you agree that the animals we consume want to live their life?
endlessness said:
Is it so far fetched to imagine the idea that maybe there is a middle path, and that people may try to be as conscious as possible and that might include eating meat or animal products at some point or another, and yet still be good person to animals and people and act as sustainable as they can and that is reasonable given their context and life? Is it also too far fatched to think that some people are vegetarians or vegans and yet are assholes or just in general also create suffering to humans or other types of animals/insects/life-forms and are full of contradictions? How do we really rate and measure compassion and wisdom and whether a person is conscious of their actions or not?
Hehe assholes certainly come in all colors - vegan and non-vegans
In regards to taking a middle path, I'd like to pose some questions my friend:
Would you eat your own pet dog (especially when you have plant-based alternatives)?
I ask this, because I want to know if it is possible to love an animal and eat it at the same time (especially when alternatives exist)..?
Let's consider other issue of social justice for a moment - slavery, rape, racism, feminism, sexism, heterosexism - In these cases, is a middle path better or complete abolition?
urtica said:
I was a vegan for many years, and ultimately my health suffered for it. I think it is really hard to get all the nutrition you need on a vegan diet unless you are supplementing quite a bit with often expensive products.
The research I've read into the effects of meat and dairy consumption on the body show otherwise. I'd like to get your perspective on this video -
HOW NOT TO DIE: The Role of Diet in Preventing, Arresting, & Reversing Our Top 15 Killers. It is presented by Dr. Michael Greger, and is a huge compilation of many different research studies into health.
May I also ask which exact nuntrient(s) you felt were lacking in your diet? From what I understand, every vital nutrient, including iron, calcium, vitamin b12 are all present plant-based sources.
urtica said:
I also like to think about, say, the thousands of animals (mice, frogs, birds, rats, gophers) that are killed in the process of plowing up a field to plant it full of soy, or in burning down huge swaths of the rainforest in order to grow soy, in order to make vegan foods.
There are some animals that are surely killed in the process of producing plant-based foods. The philosophy of veganism is to
minimize harm as much as possible. I'd also like to point out that 91% of Amazon Rainforest destruction is caused directly by animal agriculture. We use a lot more land to grow a lot more plants (soy and corn) for raising animals and the amount of mice, frogs, gophers, etc. that this process kills is a lot higher. Veganism is about choosing a more sustainable option that minimizes harm as much as possible.
Because you seem interested in the environmental aspect, I'm sure you'll find
this infographic insightful. What do you think about this?
Northerner said:
If ethics are a driver for people to choose a vegan diet the scope for a non-harm existence is far greater than food. It could be construed as picking a fight whilst ignoring many other great wrongs in our system.
Hi Northerner, I completely agree that there are so many other great wrongs in our system that need work. This is my personal opinion, but I think that the biggest priority should be to reduce the fear, pain, suffering and death of the 56 billion land animals and 90 billion marine animals that are killed every single year worldwide. If we consider for a moment that the definition of Holocaust is not "the mass killing of human beings" but rather "the mass killing of innocent beings," then wouldn't this be worth doing something about?
I read a wonderful quote Northerner - "peace begins on our plate." I've thought a lot about that, and it makes sense to me that if we can be empathic and selfless towards animals, then that selflessness would extend into our relationship with the each other and the world.
exquisitus said:
although i love love love indian strictly no meat dishes, in general no meat diet makes me gradually, but inevitably physically sick. b12 is a huge problem for me, but not nearly the only one when it comes to no meet diet.
Hi Exquisitus, yes Indian food is delicious
As mentioned above, this health aspect runs counter to the research conducted in this field. If you just do a simple search on Google Scholar for something like "effects of meat consumption," you will find a large majority of research papers proving the ill effects of meat, dairy and poultry. It is possible to find a few studies that show that meat, dairy and poultry are healthy; but since research can often contradict each other, it's important to pay attention to the
number of research studies that argue for each side. I guarantee you that for every research you find that says animal products are healthy, you will find a couple (or even a few) that show that animal products are unhealthy. The balance is heavily tipped in favor of plant-based foods. I would also like to get your views on the video I linked above in my response to Urtica.
As for B12, I would like to point you to this paper written in a medical journal -
Vitamin B12-Containing Plant Food Sources for Vegetarians
Vitamin b12 can be supplemented or can be found in fortified foods like soy, tofu, rice beverages, nutritional yeast or foods like seaweed and mushrooms.
OrionFyre said:
I've been sternly lectured by vegans for being a murderous carnivore while they sat and scarfed down a banana grown in panama in a 3 thousand acre field that was once a rainforest clear cut to grow bananas that are shipped on huge cargo ships burning fossil fuels all to support the incredulous idea that $.39/lb for bananas is 'too much'
I'm sorry OrionFyre that someone was rude in their message to you. That certainly does no good. Name-calling closes doors for any meaningful conversation to take place.
I would like to re-state the statistic I mentioned above that 91% of Amazon Rainforest destruction happens because of animal agriculture. Also consider these additional important stats:
1) 51% of global greenhouse gas emissions comes from livestock and their byproducts (whereas only 13% comes from all forms of transportation combined - worldwide)
2) A plant-based diet cuts down your carbon footprint by more than 50%
3) It takes 660 gallons of water to produce one single hamburger (equivalent of 2 months of showering)
4) 1/3 of land is desertified due to animal agriculture
5) Meat and dairy industries use 1/3 of Earth's fresh water.
To take a deeper look into the environmental impact of animal agriculture, take a look at this
infographic I linked above (or better yet, consider watching the documentary called
Cowspiracy)
I will just post this for now. I just now see that more people have responded since I started responding to this thread, so I'll get back to the rest of the responses in a short while