vegetarianism/veganism

[endlessness]

A discussion started on the 'overpopulation' thread so I thought it deserved a separate topic..

Are you guys vegetarians/vegans? what do you feel about it?

I'll continue the discussion with ohayoco's quote:

And how long exactly have you guys been vegan for? SWIM managed a year and a half as a veggie before he withered away. My female friend has been veggie with a healthy diet from BIRTH and at the age of 30 now has anaemia, and supplements didn't help. She has started eating a little meat now because she's fed up of it. Another female friend who has also been veggie from birth is still veggie, but admits to having dizzy spells (as SWIM got). Another veggie one is the girl who senses ghosts, gets messages from the universe and unfortunately suffers from episodes. A guy SWIM knew whose parents were veggie, and he is also, has no colour in his eyes- completely white- and is a human sloth. And those are the only veggie friends I have, a sorry lot compared to my omnivorous buddies! Yes, some people can take it, but not everyone. Don't suggest that this isn't true because people who 'fail' at being veggie have often tried very hard, and it's a little insulting when veggies go on at them about it. As for vegans, they seem to be dropping like flies, at least I hear them moan about their health problems, and they sometimes look SO ill, dark rings round their eyes and sickly skin.

But this rant is beside the point really- the 'everyone goes veggie' answer just delays the problem a little, it doesn't solve it. Plus, chickens and pigs can be reared in the forest and fish in the ocean, so there's no reason (other than the ethical one to not kill) to need to stop eating meat entirely.

I do agree to an extent in that the Green take on meat is to eat some but less, like a traditional Chinese diet. This would give us a little breathing space. But other measures are needed... we must control our numbers!

Well there's veganism and there's vegetarianism, and there's several nuances and also motives for people becoming..

Im not a vegan and neither a strict vegetarian, in fact, because though rarely, but I eat fresh small-scale fish (no big production/predatory fishing/grown in tanks and fed with genetically modified food kind of fish)...

There's several different reasons why I have my eating habits. I never ever try to convince anybody else to do as I do or anything of the sort, some people I know are not even aware im a 'vegetarian'! Each one decides for themselves according to their conscience, I always think that in all senses.

One of the reasons I dont eat meat is because I dont like the extreme industrialize aspect of the meat industry (you know, growth hormones, small cages, maximizing profit, etc). This is the same reason why I avoid big companies in general (with clothes also, and so on).

I also am not a fan of the unnecessary suffering of animals. Chickens having their beak pulled off and living in tiny cages, cows that are in the 'death row' and see the cows in front dying before their turn, cows being de-skinned while still alive, etc.. I feel that as a consumer, when I buy something, its as if I agree with every part of the process that led that product to me. So since I am against the treatment of animals, I dont feel its right for me to buy it.

I consider that for example indigenous people hunting their own free-running meat, or the grandma that kills her chicken which has grown free in her backyard, or whatever, is much much much muuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuch better, like light-years away from the usual meat industry, and I respect whoever tries to go for this way. Or in other words, I dont think that necessarily eating meat is a bad thing, but the way it is done today, I feel it is quite negative, so I steer away from it.

Another factor is ecological impact. It is a fact that cow meat is a very very ineficient food source, that needs much more land and so on than crops would need.. Plus IIRC 20% of global warming is due to methane, most of which comes from the digestive system of cows.. In Dreamland there are huge areas of forest being devastated for soya growing, and the overall majority of this soya is to feed cows also..

Another significant factor why I dont eat meat: I personally cannot kill an animal. I could not kill an animal with my own hands, I would simply not do it, I would look at its eyes and see myself in another reincarnation and release it or something haha. Since I know I wouldnt do it, I dont feel I have the ethical right to eat a meat just because somebody else killed for me. I have even trouble sometimes cutting plants haha, such a tree-hugging hippie

I was having a discussion with a friend, and he was arguing exactly about this: what about if you were in the jungle, no industrialized things, wouldnt you eat meat? and I answered to him that he would probably be one of the ones hunting, and I have no problem with that, but that I would be taking care of the garden and collecting plants instead Each one to his own..



One more thing is health.. I live healthily, so I dont just 'not eat meat', but I eat balanced things, I eat whole wheat bread, unsaturated fats, diverse vegetables, fruits, enough b12 and so on.

ohayoco, what you have to understand is that its not so simple as 'ok he was a vegan/vegetarian and had health problems so veganism/vegetarianism does not work'.. Our metabolism gets used to our eating habits, so the quantities of enzymes and so on are adjusted to what its used to. Many of the cases I heard of people having trouble with vegetarianism, its because they suddenly changed the diet.. Any sudden change for the body, specially in so fundamental aspects as eating, can be very problematic. But, just to note, I dont think everybody should be vegetarian or that it would work and that they should make a plan on being vegetarian.. I do think that it would be nice if people were aware of what they consumed and tried to look for things that have less negative impact, but this is in all areas, not just eating..

Back to 'vegetarianism going wrong': Also, I've known a lot of people who are vegetarians/vegans and actually eat very unhealthily.. I've seen a lot of vegetarians eating too much fried things, I've seen vegans that dont think about their b12 intake, and so on..

It is a myth that vegetarians cant get enough proteins.. Rice and beans (typical Dreamlandlian food), all sorts of nuts, soya, quinoa grains, dairies (for those that do eat), eggs (for those that do eat), etc etc, all of these things have more than enough protein.. So its just about eating healthily, knowing what to eat..

The only problem is for vegans that dont get b12.. b12 is made by certain bacteria that live in the guts of animals, so vegans dont get b12, unless they take supplements. I have enough vitamin b12 because I eat free-running chicken eggs and drink home made yoghurt from well-treated cows...


You know, funny thing, I once met a vegan that smoked marlboro.. He did not realize what a contradiction this was.. I mean, one that tries to be 'natural' but smokes the most industrialized shit ever! Not to mention that cigarrete companies many times do animal testing, so... I think one can see when its a certain 'fashion' or 'superficial behavior' that a person has, or when its really a part of the person and that they have fully thought and decided with all their being..


ok thats a big post and not so well organized but im too lazy so lets leave it at that for the moment

 

[ohayoco]

Dude, I know exactly how you feel. I tried to be a veggie. Half of my friends that I mentioned eat impeccably, and SWIM ate a textbook diet because he's very health conscious. The others I expect weren't much less sloppy as the normal person-on-the-street.

I also forgot to mention a girl I was seeing once who didn't eat meat. She weighed 6 stone.... eventually her hair started falling out. The doctor told me she wasn't eating properly, and that she had to take B vitamin supplements (not just B12). So that's a lot of people I know who have problems with such a diet. As a vegetarian, it seems that you have to be a lot more careful about your diet to stay healthy. Whereas the Maasai grow tall on little more than beef and blood.

There are many evolutionary theories about why we act the way we act, and some of the ones about women are to do with getting meat because it was so important in the hunter-gatherer lifestyle ('sex for meat'). I admire the stance to 'opt out' of the cruelty of life, but after getting so ill SWIM personally would never risk trying complete vegetarianism again. SWIM has accepted his biology, always eats organic free-range, and will eat full-on happy-farm meat one day when he can afford (or even better, rear his own and slaughter them himself).

I'm not saying it doesn't work for everyone, I'm just saying it doesn't work for SOME people

There could be a healthy compromise... like only eating shellfish, and other minimally sentient / insentient animals.

I completely agree with you on the following point... if you couldn't face killing it yourself, you shouldn't eat it. I guess that's about taking responsibility. A native American friend told me they pray to the spirit of the animal and thank it after the hunt. Whereas the Abrahimic religions can be pretty inhumane in the butchery of things that 'do not have souls'.
Or one could possibly argue that it is good that our society is removed from such violence... the more familiar one becomes with killing, for some perhaps life, including human life, becomes cheap. Lots of interesting discussion points...

 

[ohayoco]

This is that thing I wrote ages ago then decided not to post, but may as well get it out there. It was born out of getting bored with how vegans are full of militant propaganda (which is why they always fail to win over hearts and minds)...

Debunking a Vegan Myth

If you are a vegan or vegetarian, then I genuinely admire your ethical choice. However, there is a myth perpetuated by many vegans that I would like to debunk. The myth is that we must stop pastoral farming because of its inefficiency.

In part they're right. Keeping livestock on a field that could otherwise be producing crops is calorifically inefficient, both because the field is not producing crops, and other fields must be used to grow feed for the animals.

However, here's what the myth has overlooked. We need more forests. They act as carbon sinks, produce wood, and are generally good for the soul. We can create new, permaculture forests that also provide meat. Chickens are descended from forest fowl. They can be organically farmed within a forest year-round, without even needing feed in the right numbers as they can forage for themselves. They even prefer the forest to open spaces. Pigs also have their ancestry based in the forest and can live in it for most of the year (and can be used to 'pre-plough' fields the rest of the time by rooting up what's left after harvest). They are also very good recyclers of organic domestic and industrial waste, such as the mash from breweries, so their numbers can be increased accordingly if required. I stumbled across some promising trials one day and found more research confirming this opportunity.

So a maximally populated world is not a vegan one (and this isn't even taking seafood and bees into account, which of course are other food sources that can be added to the cornucopia). I just wanted to get this 'out there' because I'm fed up of explaining it to militant vegans when they start reciting their propaganda!

 

[ohayoco]

Oooh, another idea... John Seymour, the self-sufficiency guru, said to not slaughter an animal unless you have to, because they produce useful things continually like eggs, milk and wool.

That gave me an idea (for my 'utopian musings')... maybe animals could only be slaughtered as a kind of euthenasia?
I'd be happy to eat mutton instead of lamb if it gave the animal a longer and happier life. However tough the meat is, it could be cooked longer, minced etc to make up for it.

 

[endlessness]

Dude, I know exactly how you feel. I tried to be a veggie. Half of my friends that I mentioned eat impeccably, and SWIM ate a textbook diet because he's very health conscious. The others I expect weren't much less sloppy as the normal person-on-the-street.

Interesting.. maybe this leads us to your other point:

I'm not saying it doesn't work for everyone, I'm just saying it doesn't work for SOME people

which I completely agree! As I mentioned, I dont think everybody could or should become vegetarians.. Some yes, its their way (like me), but others not and that is totally understandable.. . I think everybody should be conscious, and healthy, eating meat or not..

As a vegetarian, it seems that you have to be a lot more careful about your diet to stay healthy. Whereas the Maasai grow tall on little more than beef and blood.

Thats an interesting point.. I never thought about it. But is this necessary extra care necessarily a bad thing? I have no problem being careful because I see food as not just something to 'fill the belly', so I enjoy paying more attention to food.. but I understand that for some people it may be a problem..

I admire the stance to 'opt out' of the cruelty of life,

you know thats another thing actually... sure I have sometimes had to go out my way because of my choices, but in general, its actually not a choice at all.. I mean this in the sense that, some people ask me: 'oh but dont you wish you had some nice steak? ' or also 'where is the fun, you gotta enjoy yourself!' or ' how can you resist this wonderful cake' (also because I dont eat sweats, only very mild things like 85% cacao or whatever).. But for me, I really really like what I eat, and not for a single moment I desire eating the things that I dont.. Maybe im just lucky to have my taste buds match my ethics or something hahaha

There could be a healthy compromise... like only eating shellfish, and other minimally sentient / insentient animals.

haha this reminds me of the days when I listened to punk rock.. check out these funny lyrics from a song from them:

Pigs smell bad and roll in pooh
But so do kids and elderly
I don’t see you chop of an old man’s feet
Put them in a mason jar and pickle them

No chowder for you, cause clams have feelings too
Actually they don’t have central nervousness
No manhattan style, clams have the right to smile
Come to think about it they don’t have a face

They have no face, no place for ears
There’s no clam eyes to cry clam tears
No spinal cord, they must get bored
Might as well just put them out of misery

I dont believe it's selfish
To eat defenceless shellfish

No chowder for you, cause clams have feelings too
It could happen to you, clams have feelings too
I don’t think they do, clams have feelings too

A native American friend told me they pray to the spirit of the animal and thank it after the hunt. Whereas the Abrahimic religions can be pretty inhumane in the butchery of things that 'do not have souls'.

yes I also think thats a nice thought, that if one does take the life out from some animal, that it does it in this positive conscious way. but the indigenous people grow with the idea that all life is sacred, and this is missing in our world..

oh well.. haha

 

[Phlux-]

im a veggie and so is my partner - for over 6 years now - a veggie must have a good diet - neither i nor her have any health issues - we are fit and happy.

 

[ohayoco]

SWIM is happy for you, maybe even a little jealous . For him, he saw benefits over the first few months- his acne cleared up almost completely (he got it on his back since early teens) and he felt mentally calmer. Feeling that he had opted out of violence made him happy too. It was after a year and a bit that things started going horribly wrong. The acne returned when he began eating meat again, so perhaps people who suffer from that could benefit from at least a semi-vegetarian diet.

I'd be interested also to hear veggie and vegan takes on predators. Many of them think of meat-eating humans as murderers, some going so far as vilifying them as unworthy of life. So what do they think of other carnivorous and omnivorous animals? Such as tigers, and omnivores such as apes and birds in particular... are they let off the hook due to their 'ignorance'? One could say that many meat-eating humans are ignorant of vegetarianism, in that they do not believe that it would be healthy for them. Or should predating animals be exterminated too? Isn't their cruel function to control populations, saving many from starvation due to overpopulation (which leads us back to the thread that this topic grew out of). Could it even be suggested that humans should even exterminate all other predatory species, then manage populations using more 'humane' ways of killing wild animals, rather than the fear and slow death of the animal hunt? Thus bringing the amount of suffering of all species down considerably. I'm not advocating this idea, it's just a point for contemplation...

 

[VisualDistortion]

Do any of you guys listen to Cattle Decapitation? They're a death metal band, but they're all vegans. They sing about human cannibalsim. A while back their guitarist left and a budy of mine went and tried out for em. He had all the musical skill, but then was turned down by em when they asked him if he was a vegan he said, "no".

 

[ohayoco]

Would you hire a Nazi? To them, that's what we are, with our animal-concentration-camps, so I can understand it.

 

[VisualDistortion]

God I love my factory fresh meat, it almost taste like the chicken ate solid food at some point. One day they'll get that flavor down.

 

[endlessness]

SWIM is happy for you, maybe even a little jealous . For him, he saw benefits over the first few months- his acne cleared up almost completely and he felt mentally calmer. Feeling that he had opted out of violence made him happy too. It was after a year and a bit that things started going horribly wrong. The acene returned when he began eating meat again, so perhaps people who suffer from that could benefit from at least a semi-vegetarian diet.

I'd be interested also to hear veggie and vegan takes on predators. Many of them think of meat-eating humans as murderers, some going so far as vilifying them as unworthy of life. So what do they think of other carnivorous and omnivorous animals? Such as tigers, and omnivores such as apes and birds in particular... are they let off the hook due to their 'ignorance'? One could say that many meat-eating humans are ignorant of vegetarianism, in that they do not believe that it would be healthy for them. Or should predating animals be exterminated too? Isn't their cruel function to control populations, saving many from starvation due to overpopulation (which leads us back to the thread that this topic grew out of). Could it even be suggested that humans should even exterminate all other predatory species, then manage populations using more 'humane' ways of killing wild animals, rather than the fear and slow death of the animal hunt? Thus bringing the amount of suffering of all species down considerably. I'm not advocating this idea, it's just a point for contemplation...

Hey

well I think it would be completely ridiculous that anybody would suggest carnivore animals are 'wrong'.. I was just about to say that I cannot imagine anybody would ever suggest that but then I remembered how much crazy people there are in this world haha

as i mentioned, I dont think eating meat is necessarily wrong, just the extreme unnecessary-suffering way its done nowadays (though even if it was all natural I wouldnt go back to eating it, but I understand and respect others that do)

I think a big part of the problem is that the way our society is organized, we are far removed from the process in which we are actually embeded in. So when we go to the supermarket, we relate to the products almost as if they have magically popped up into existence right there, without any idea of its past and everything that took to bring that product to the shelves. In fact most times we dont even relate to the product, but to the packaging; so many times one cant even see the product, only the package, the exterior, the brand.. We are made to associate a products quality with price, brand and packaging.

But the fact is that we are connected in a network of relationships with everything we come across.. When we buy a product, we are somehow deeply connected with everything that happened, from the growing and the workers, to the process of collection/killing, to the packaging, transport and so on.. I think if people would take care to find out more about their products and where they came from and how its done, a LOT of people would change their consuming habits (and I dont mean just food, with everything)... For example, did you know that, appart from other 'costs', to make 1 cellphone, 80 kilos of material are thrown away/wasted? Now imagine the amount with all these people changing cellphone every couple of months, and all the costs of material/water/waste/energy/etc ... (maybe this is back to your overpopulation thread haha).

I have heard many times people like: oh, change this channel, I dont want to see animals suffering' or something of the sort, and then soon after going to eat some cage-grown hormone-filled chicken.. Or women feeling so poor for animals on tv but then using make up which has been highly tested on animals.. People dont connect A to B.. In our society we see parts, isolated objects, not the network of relations and broad consequences and implications.

There's plenty of films/programs about how they treat animals, like Earthlings.. obviously most are made in a sort of propaganda-ish way, trying to convince people, but I would say that regardless, it might be beneficial for people to watch, there's a lot of good information. Even if not to change the habits but at least to be aware, and be able to make the decision and consuming with knowledge of it and not as an isolated unthought superficial consuming

 

[ohayoco]

I like to throw crazy ideas out there! Often once they are discounted they lead on to a useful one, so they should always be discussed if they're truly fresh. It's great having this site of open-minded, philosophically aware people to bat ideas off. One day my utopian theory will be complete! :twisted: :lol:

 

[Phlux-]

we cant compare our eating habits to those of animals.
im healthier, fitter and more flexible than ever - my joints feel looser than ever before.
im A+ blood type and am well suited to being a vegetarian, my diet is very wide - you cant just stop eating meat and eat as u did before - major changes need to be made.
having to prep food makes one more concious of what they eat, its better appreciated.
I used to eat basically meat only - now meat smells really really bad to me - sure it was hard - but was it worth it - deffinately.
i also follow the blood type diet and that has changed my life greatly - its not like oh read it, beleave it - i tested everything personally and have found what works for me. im very happy with my diet now and given the chance - i would never go back.

 

[ohayoco]

Yes I've heard about this blood group theory, and how it affects your diet, very interesting, tell us more.

SWIM's process of giving up was a very slow one covering decades...
First, his mother stopped feeding him beef due to the BSE mad-cow disease scare.
Age 20, he started on a 'nothing with nipples' diet, so ate birds and seafood.
Age 22, he became pescatarian, so ate fish only.
Age 23, he became vegetarian, protein combining nuts, lentils and beans with carbs the vegan way, as well as eating eggs and cheese every other day, and milk every day.
A year later, "bleugh". All medical tests normal. A year and a half later, "Either kill myself or eat meat again". Dizzy nausea spells stopped immediately. Slow recovery. He's now 30, and still a bit messed up psychologically by the illness, whatever it was and whatever caused it. The vegetarianism definitely played a part at the very least because of the immediate improvement upon eating meat again, but he's open to the idea that it was only one of a combination of factors. More here DMT and Health - Help and Advice for Healing - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus in my long post.

 

[Phlux-]

some ppl just arent meant to be veggies - what is ur blood type ?

 

[ohayoco]

I don't know. I was interested because I heard about that theory about blood type and necessary diet. It sounded interesting, though I'm sceptical. I guessed I was the 'hunter gatherer' blood type! SWIM too. While veggies are the 'lentil farmer' type. Or however it goes :lol:

 

[Phlux-]

yeah you should find out what type of blood u have - i am always sceptical, but i put it to the test and it succeeded - i have so much energy i dont know what to do with it and i sleep better than ever. just avoided a few food items and included a few food items.

 

[ohayoco]

I'll definitely have to check that out. If I remember correctly, it's called 'The Blood Group Diet'?

I like this thread, I hope it keeps going. It would be good to hear a vegan perspective. I'm surprised at the reasonableness of this thread so far. I thought we'd get the odd few writing "Jesus tells us to eat meat" and "it's the way of nature mofo", then "you murderers disgust me" etc. Maybe because I've come back from a little holiday on another forum where the clientele aren't as polite :lol:

 

[ohayoco]

The blood type diet is an unscientific [53] diet created by an American author who claims that people can improve their health by modifying their food intake and lifestyle according to their ABO blood group and secretor status.[54]

Mayo Clinic dietitian Katherine Zeratsky RD LD warns that blood type diets may not meet the nutritional needs of a person, explains that these diets may not improve one's weight or health, and says that there is no scientific evidence supporting these diets.[1]

Whereas here's the official website explaining who eats what (type A are the veggies):

http://www.dadamo.com/yourbloodtype.htm

The official website uses the old Japanese blood group personality theory as authority for its argument, whereas Wiki has this to say:

The Japanese blood type theory of personality is a popular belief that a person's ABO blood type is predictive of their personality, character, and compatibility with others. It was a serious scientific hypothesis which was proposed early in the 20th century, which gained currency within the Japanese public. This theory has long since been rejected by the scientific community. (For a proponent, see Masahiko Nomi.) This belief has been carried over to a certain extent into other parts of East Asia, including South Korea and China. In all these places, asking someone their blood type is considered as normal as asking their astrological sign.

But I'm up for trying it (as long as I'm not one of the veggie types!)

 

[Phlux-]

hehe - well a lot of places say a lot of things and im no sheep. i tested it and it worked for me - i stopped eating certain foods for a few months only to find on eating them again - negative symptoms were felt.
its not really a major change - just avoid a few foods and get more of a few. read the book - its not unscientific at all - there are explanations for everything stated in there.