vegetarianism/veganism

[dreamer042]

I don't know what's true and misinformation, I am not a certified nutritionist. But as someone who has actually lived this lifestyle for a significant amount of time, I found certain supplements (especially a multivitamin) are necessary for maintaining my own nutrition, health, and wellness. We are all different so I won't venture to speak for what anyone else's body needs.

The body is an amazing thing.I mean people live for decades off big macs and cokes, so yes you can live just fine without any supplements but personally I learned that I do need them to maintain optimal health.

All we can do is work within our own diets and find what works for us. I will say over all these years, I have learned that supplementing is important for my own health and I would advise anyone who is working with these alternative diets to pay special attention to these things within their own lifestyle.

Make sure to talk to a doctor or a nutritionist before making any drastic dietary changes and do plenty of your own research.

 

[SWIMfriend]

^^fractal enchantment: There is quite good reason to believe that someone who follows a vegan diet may derive great benefit from taking a (tiny) B12 pill at least once in awhile (or better yet, a B-complex that includes B12). There's good reason to believe that low B12 levels can allow an increase in serum homocysteine; and very good evidence that excess serum homocysteine promotes cardiovascular disease.

You may live for twenty years with low B12 levels and feel fine--and all the while your arteries are thickening, and you end up dying much younger than might be expected from heart attack or stroke.

One surprising fact that softened me a bit about veganism when I heard about it is that chimps seem to CRAVE meat, and will hunt for it and consume it whenever they can.


EDIT: And you can investigate this issue for yourself directly: A simple blood test to measure your current homocysteine levels. In general, we can ALL benefit by regular blood tests (and you can order them yourself online--you don't need to go through a doctor). Having precise measurements of your physiological state (as reflected in your blood) is a REAL BOON of modern medicine.

 

[jamie]

I was very very sick at one point, and have had numerous blood tests that cost alot of money. I eat this way now becasue of how I was before. Everything has gotten better now..and BEFORE when I ate meat I tested low b12..no longer do I test positive for low b12 so go figure. And I have done extensive reading and there is enough evidence to support that RAW fruits and vegetables do contain b12. I dunno where you read that chimps crave meat becasue I have never read that anywhere despite all the reading I have done on the issue. As far as I know they only eat meat and even nuts when fruit is not available.

SWIMfriend if you study more into the whole b12 thing you will find that just as many meat eaters test positive for low b12 as vegans, becasue it is believed by many with convincing support that low b12 is due to a mineral deficiency and has nothing to do at all with the lack of the actual vitamine in the foods they consume..The body will not abosrb b12 if it is lacking the proper minerals to do so.

Based on my own case, where I was extremely ill and seeing all kinds of specialists on a regular basis I have proven this true for myself. I dont care to prove it to anyone else. I have had it verified that my health has improved drastically due to nothing other than my change in diet and that is enough to forever convince me.

 

[dreamer042]

Frac:
I will be keeping my eye on you as a case study, I would love to see you still all raw and healthy, vibrant, and happy 3 years in, 5, 10...

Never seen anyone last 3 years totally raw, even your 7 months is a lot further than I've seen most people get. I only made it about 4 months personally, with special attention to nutrition and the use of outside supplements, and it was still taking a toll on my vitality. So kudos to you for getting this far, and like a say, I would love for you to be an example that it can can be maintained as a lifestyle.

 

[jamie]

I have met people that have been raw for 5 years or more and they are all very active and healthy people. Minxx has been raw for more than 3 years and was a raw vegan chef for like 2 years so I eat well. Living with someone that did this for a living makes the transition so much easier becasue otherwise I would have been eating bowls of freaking lettuce and carrots.

I should mention that I am not apparently technically "vegan" because I eat raw bee honey and sometimes bee pollen. Alot of "vegans" get very very militant about my consumption of insect products and like to inform me that I am not vegan. I find bee honey far far more nutrient dense than agave nectar though, and honey has so many health benifits I continue eating it. The bee pollen does have some b12 in it, but I ate bee pollen back when I tested low b12 as well..and I also had numerous symptoms of mineral deficiency that went along with that.

 

[SWIMfriend]

Based on my own case, where I was extremely ill and seeing all kinds of specialists on a regular basis I have proven this true for myself. I dont care to prove it to anyone else. I have had it verified that my health has improved drastically due to nothing other than my change in diet and that is enough to forever convince me.

I wouldn't deny that could be true. Perhaps you have food allergies you're not aware of.

But none of that changes the fact that good scientific work gives REASON to believe, in one small (but life critical) area (specifically, raised serum homocysteine levels), that veganism can have a detrimental impact--which can EASILY BE ADDRESSED by a simple pill containing NUTRIENTS.

Instead of arguing, the issue can be easily and directly addressed by occasional (once a year?) measurement of your homocysteine levels (OR, even more cheaply and easily, by popping some cheap and easy B-complex caps a couple times a week). Note that the homocysteine risk could exist EVEN THOUGH you feel better eating the way you do.

Regarding "chimps and meat," just enter that in google (without the quotes) and the first source linked is from a Stanford University discussion of the phenomenon.

To see for yourself, type in "chimps hunting" or "chimps eating meat" (without the qutoes) into a youtube search, and you can view MANY videos of chimps in action.

 

[jamie]

I searched "chimps eating meat" and this is the first thing I clicked on..

Chimp hunting and flesh-eating.

Chimp hunting and flesh-eating: social, not nutritional.

www.ecologos.org

I dont have time to research any farther right now but according to that chimps eat meat 1.4% of the time..not much at all. I will research more later.

 

[SWIMfriend]

I searched "chimps eating meat" and this is the first thing I clicked on..

Chimp hunting and flesh-eating.

Chimp hunting and flesh-eating: social, not nutritional.

www.ecologos.org

I dont have time to research any farther right now but according to that chimps eat meat 1.4% of the time..not much at all. I will research more later.

Here's the Stanford article.

And here are a couple of quotes from it:

"At Gombe, we now know that chimpanzees may kill and eat more than 150 small and medium sized animals such as monkeys, wild pigs and small antelopes each year."

"I estimate that in some years, the 45 chimpanzees of the main study community at Gombe kill and consume more than 1500 pounds of prey animals of all species. This is far more than most previous estimates of the weight of live animals eaten by chimpanzees."


EDIT: Oops. The NAME of the author is "Stanford." He's a faculty member at USC.

 

[gazal]

.I dont eat peanutes ever thought.

Why you avoid peanuts ? cause the toasting ?

 

[jamie]

I searched "chimps eating meat" and this is the first thing I clicked on..

Chimp hunting and flesh-eating.

Chimp hunting and flesh-eating: social, not nutritional.

www.ecologos.org

I dont have time to research any farther right now but according to that chimps eat meat 1.4% of the time..not much at all. I will research more later.

Here's the Stanford article.

And here are a couple of quotes from it:

"At Gombe, we now know that chimpanzees may kill and eat more than 150 small and medium sized animals such as monkeys, wild pigs and small antelopes each year."

"I estimate that in some years, the 45 chimpanzees of the main study community at Gombe kill and consume more than 1500 pounds of prey animals of all species. This is far more than most previous estimates of the weight of live animals eaten by chimpanzees."


EDIT: Oops. The NAME of the author is "Stanford." He's a faculty member at USC.

They also found differences in hunting practices between different groups of chimps from different areas. Some of the chimps only hunted meat mainly in the off/dry season when other fruit and plant sources of foods were much less available. Others hunted mainly in the presense of female chimps..

Another interesting thing is that of the main groups of apes, humans and chimps are the only ones who do hunt at all..all others are vegetarian. They dont know for sure why chimps even comsume meat all, all the reasons are thus far speculation.

Reguardless of what other humans or chimps eat, I know that I feel way way better with the diet I eat. Everyone in my family even tells me I look way healthier than I used to. I dont think it is necessarily so relevant what chimps do, becasue chimps also throw shit at each other. Chimps dont drive cars or build computers but we do..I find this arguement both from the side of the veg people and meat eaters only relevant to a certain point. If it works for you than it works for you because it works for you, reguardless of what another human or ape species does. I definatily do not believe that apes had everything down exactly perfect with no room change.

 

[jamie]

.I dont eat peanutes ever thought.

Why you avoid peanuts ? cause the toasting ?

Raw peanuts feel kinda toxic to me so I dont eat them. I was allergic to peanuts a few years back as well, probly not anymore but I still dont eat them ever. I have heard many claims that raw peanutes are to be avoided becasue they dont digest well until they are roasted.

I am not really into eating any nuts unless they are sprouted and fermented. We sprout raw cashews and brazil nuts, then blend them with acidophilus to culture it, and cut it into wheels, dehydrate and salt it. It is good, tastes like feta cheese, and digests way way better than just raw nuts.

If I eat nuts in anythign else I sprout them first.

 

[dreamer042]

As a 21st century human in living in a globally connected society I try to remain conscious of my impact upon the planet, but I also believe I deserve no less than the best this planet has to offer me.

I don't accept "food" that is processed till there is no nutrition, filled with artificial colors and flavors, and loaded with of harmful refined sugars, and I don't understand why anybody would. I demand healthy unprocessed foods grown without human, animal, and environment toxic chemicals unnecessarily added to them. I don't see why I am the minority in this. I don't see why there has to be special labels and certifications for "natural" and "organic" food. Shouldn't all food be this way? Why on earth would someone put all these crazy substances into their body without knowing what they are? Knowing what most of these things are, eating them seems like a slow form of suicide ensuring a painful and costly death, akin to smoking a pack of Marlboro a day.

In this day and age with 24/7 instant access to a global information database in our pockets, all the amazing botanical gifts our globe has to offer just a mouse click away, and all the new healthy conscious sustainable businesses and products springing up, not switching to a "natural foods" lifestyle; regardless of whether its raw, veg, omnivorous or whatever, just seems completely counter intuitive and destructive to the individual and the global economy in which they live.

This also extends to my views on drugs. Why on earth would anyone buy marijuana, cocaine, heroin etc... that they know is steeped in suffering and bloodshed of people all across the world and supporting huge black markets and criminal cartels. Coca leaf tea is on amazon.com, poppy seeds are available at pretty much any grocer, and high quality ganja seeds are pretty readily available as well. If people stop feeding money into these black markets and start practicing and supporting responsible and sustainable personal use this empowers them and helps dis-empower a lot of the negative forces currently running our world which in my book is a win for everyone.

 

[MelCat]

As a 21st century human in living in a globally connected society I try to remain conscious of my impact upon the planet, but I also believe I deserve no less than the best this planet has to offer me.

I don't accept "food" that is processed till there is no nutrition, filled with artificial colors and flavors, and loaded with of harmful refined sugars, and I don't understand why anybody would. I demand healthy unprocessed foods grown without human, animal, and environment toxic chemicals unnecessarily added to them. I don't see why I am the minority in this. I don't see why there has to be special labels and certifications for "natural" and "organic" food. Shouldn't all food be this way? Why on earth would someone put all these crazy substances into their body without knowing what they are? Knowing what most of these things are, eating them seems like a slow form of suicide ensuring a painful and costly death, akin to smoking a pack of Marlboro a day.

In this day and age with 24/7 instant access to a global information database in our pockets, all the amazing botanical gifts our globe has to offer just a mouse click away, and all the new healthy conscious sustainable businesses and products springing up, not switching to a "natural foods" lifestyle; regardless of whether its raw, veg, omnivorous or whatever, just seems completely counter intuitive and destructive to the individual and the global economy in which they live.

This also extends to my views on drugs. Why on earth would anyone buy marijuana, cocaine, heroin etc... that they know is steeped in suffering and bloodshed of people all across the world and supporting huge black markets and criminal cartels. Coca leaf tea is on amazon.com, poppy seeds are available at pretty much any grocer, and high quality ganja seeds are pretty readily available as well. If people stop feeding money into these black markets and start practicing and supporting responsible and sustainable personal use this empowers them and helps dis-empower a lot of the negative forces currently running our world which in my book is a win for everyone.

Dreamer, thank you for posting this. I re-read it a couple of times and I intend to re-read it quite a few more so it really sinks in. You raise a lot of really good points that are very hard if not impossible to argue. I believe this post will help me to raise my standards for myself a lot. Hopefully it will help some others too. Thanks again.

 

[gazal]

Thank you guys for all those excellent insights.
Fractal, have you please some link to learn more about fermented food processing ?

 

[endlessness]

Yes to what you said dreamer

I know you know this but Id like to add: buying food that is not from the season or place, transported thousands of miles away, no matter if its organic, is having a hell of an impact on our society and world. So lets not fall blindly for organic labels, and try as much as possible to buy local season things (and not change our phones or whatever every couple of months, etc)

 

[joedirt]

As a 21st century human in living in a globally connected society I try to remain conscious of my impact upon the planet, but I also believe I deserve no less than the best this planet has to offer me.

I don't accept "food" that is processed till there is no nutrition, filled with artificial colors and flavors, and loaded with of harmful refined sugars, and I don't understand why anybody would. I demand healthy unprocessed foods grown without human, animal, and environment toxic chemicals unnecessarily added to them. I don't see why I am the minority in this. I don't see why there has to be special labels and certifications for "natural" and "organic" food. Shouldn't all food be this way? Why on earth would someone put all these crazy substances into their body without knowing what they are? Knowing what most of these things are, eating them seems like a slow form of suicide ensuring a painful and costly death, akin to smoking a pack of Marlboro a day.

In this day and age with 24/7 instant access to a global information database in our pockets, all the amazing botanical gifts our globe has to offer just a mouse click away, and all the new healthy conscious sustainable businesses and products springing up, not switching to a "natural foods" lifestyle; regardless of whether its raw, veg, omnivorous or whatever, just seems completely counter intuitive and destructive to the individual and the global economy in which they live.

This also extends to my views on drugs. Why on earth would anyone buy marijuana, cocaine, heroin etc... that they know is steeped in suffering and bloodshed of people all across the world and supporting huge black markets and criminal cartels. Coca leaf tea is on amazon.com, poppy seeds are available at pretty much any grocer, and high quality ganja seeds are pretty readily available as well. If people stop feeding money into these black markets and start practicing and supporting responsible and sustainable personal use this empowers them and helps dis-empower a lot of the negative forces currently running our world which in my book is a win for everyone.

Between what you posted here and what Endlessness started with I'd say pretty much sums up my ideals about it.

 

[jamie]

Thank you guys for all those excellent insights.
Fractal, have you please some link to learn more about fermented food processing ?

Fermented Vegan Odiferous Cheese and a Raw Bento Lunch

For those who think I’ve already gone too far with”this vegan thing”, HA, I’m now trying to go raw vegan! Yep, and it’s opened up a whole new world of vegan recipes an…

snarkyvegan.wordpress.com

^ there is one site I found. I dont have alot of time right now to find more but google searching "raw nut or cashew cheese" should bring up some stuff. Just make sure it uses acidophilus or other non-dairy cultures..as some use kefir which has dairy in it.

If you need more info pm me.

 

[gazal]

Thank you Fractal, that link is enough to start and find other sources. Very interesting stuff there !

 

[jamie]

^that should be of interest to some of you.

 

[soulfood]

I'm having a go at transitioning to raw at the moment. I'm not going extreme, as I feel I'll benefit more in the long run if I adjust slowly, but I guess I'll see where I go.

Anyway yeah, as usual I've been browsing over the B12 issue and came across this article with a comment attached which I shall quote here... seemed interesting at least:

B12 on a raw vegan diet.. (mostly fruitarian)

Last year, our friend Harley was interviewed on TV (here in Australia), some show called, I think, "What's good for you".. Now, Harley's th...

mangodurian.blogspot.com

hey mango. big fan of the site. i just wanted to let you know you are absolutely correct about B12. ive done some brief studies about the B vitamins. if someone is on a cooked omniverous diet B12 is essential as it can help break down other nutrients that are not being met properly. on a raw vegan/or fruitarian diet the b1,B2,B6..and so forth are met (epecially juiced). because these vitamins are met b12 simply is not needed AT ALL! omnivores lack all the other B vitamins which make it dangerous. B12 i believe is a shadow vitamin. one in which does not show in the blod but occurs naturally in our deep tissues or bones or muscles. if we lacked b1,b2,b6 then we would be at risk of heart disease and liver dysfunction. b12 is necessary to keep meat eaters alive. but when we have met the requirements of our essential B's then we do not require the support of B12. doctors will fail to recognize this as they are narrow minded. naturopathy is so popular that most meat eating doctor loving people are switching over. the reason is that doctors fail to treat anyone. i found out i have liver damage that is hereditary. my doctor failed to look into it. i could have died. instead im high fruit raw vegan and im so much better. i no longer have a doctor and refuse to listen to their 'bullshit' im my own doctor. and inside i KNOW b12 means nothing for us. its a shame .. some people never catch on. instead we should focus less on numbers of vitamin/minerals in our blood and more on the functioning of our organs. because those are what determine our health.