Chacruna and Chaliponga are similar in effects, usually bright and colorful. Both have a long history of indigenous use as admixtures to Ayahuasca. Chacruna is the kindest of them all. Chaliponga contains 5-MeO-DMT as well as N,N-DMT. Her visions are somewhat fuzzier, but the effects seem to last longer, and the afterglow is more pronounced. Jurema contains some other stuff not well known, which some call "jungle DMT". It is sinister and scary, much about devils and death. Her visions are of subterranean worlds- hell, caves, underground tunnels.
69Ron:
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SWIM has more consistent results from Hawaiian Psychotria viridis. Hawaiian Psychotria viridis is less toxic compared to Mimosa. Mimosa has a lot of tannins and other junk you don’t want to ingest. Most people find Psychotria more pleasant and less toxic feeling that Mimosa.
For ayahuasca, P. viridis is much better. The trip is smoother, less toxic feeling. SWIM always prefers P. viridis over M. hostilis. The effects are cleaner, friendlier, and just plain better. There’s something about M. hostilis that makes it feel darker, more toxic.
A caapi only brew is sometimes recommended as your first experience. Harmine and tetrahydroharmine are the main active alkaloids in caapi, and when taken together without admixture plant, they alone can cause visions, but they are dark, daydream-like, and not as vivid as those had when an admixture plant source is added. Admixture greatly enhances the visual effects of harmine and harmaline, and also introduces “psychedelic” alterations to the thought processes. Admixture makes the experience much more intense, and can also make the experience more frightening for a first time user, especially if the dose is high enough.
My recommendation for a first time experience is to use a weak brew made using chacruna and caapi and nothing else. Don't use mimosa, and don't use chaliponga. Chacruna gives a much friendlier experience than either mimosa or chaliponga. Chaliponga is often recommended for experienced users only.
Seriously, don’t use mimosa. There is no such thing as Ayahuasca made with mimosa. The natives do not use mimosa for making Ayahuasca. There must be a good reason they don’t use it in Ayahuasca. Ayahuasca made with mimosa feels quite toxic to SWIM, and is probably not good for you. That’s probably why they don’t use it. When SWIM uses mimosa in ayahuasca he feels tense, gets lots of stomach problems, and feels some unusual toxic effects that are hard to describe. It just doesn’t feel healthy to SWIM. SWIM has decided to never use ayahuasca made with mimosa. He thinks possibly liver damage or something worse may be the result of using mimosa in ayahuasca too often. There are no long term studies of users of mimosa based ayahuasca around to show that it’s safe. There are such studies for ayahuasca made with chacruna and chaliponga showing that long term use is safe.
I think once you've had enough experience with ayahuasca made with chacruna and ayahuasca made with mimosa, you'll notice just how much more toxic a mimosa based ayahuasca feels, and you’re likely going to stop using it and switch to brews made with chacruna.
I think listening to the body is important. Mimosa in Ayahuasca doesn't feel healthy.
As for the natives who use mimosa, they don't use it with any MAOI, and their habit has not been extensively studied.
Most people use mimosa because it's cheaper, and when they are given real ayahuasca made with chacruna, most of them make the switch to it because it feels much healthier. That’s been SWIM’s experience with the people he knows.
Mimosa is cheap. People use it because it's cheap. Same with rue. People use rue because it’s cheap.
There are many shamans who have the internet now and know about how cheap mimosa is and have tried it. So your reasoning behind why they do not use mimosa in ayahuasca only applies to shamans living in the jungle. Other shamans who know about mimosa still do not use it in ayahuasca because their followers in general prefer ayahuasca made with chacruna. It feels better for the body and has a long history of safe use.
I’m willing to bet that long term use of ayahuasca made with mimosa will cause liver damage or some other health problems. It feels that toxic to SWIM.
shroomdoom:
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I prefer Chacruna by far to Mimosa or acacia which consistently produces a rougher more confusing experience. Let's just say this I would rather be deep in and fully immersed ( complete with throbbing machine/wave vibration noise...you know the one) in a wall of visions from Chacruna any day than M hostilis or Acacia.
The content of my experiences from Mimosa has been largely negative and much more confusing/disorienting. First of all I hate to brew it because it's got too much tannins and it's nasty to digest. Then Mimosa seems to be this wily, semi-malevolent character that is happy to kick your ass in an overt way. I feel like drinking brews with mimosa induce a savage and jubilant eating of my psyche with this purple, green, red and golden parade to accompany.
The first difference I notice to Chacruna, I feel more disoriented and fearful from my mimosa brews and the anxiety level is high. I have seen other people react even more extremely negatively than myself to mimosa and rue preparations; a girl screaming vocalizations that sound inhuman, a guy having involuntary and violent spasms that resemble breakdancing of some sort, a grown man in his 30s unhinged so bad he was afraid to be in the dark alone in the 3 weeks after his experience. I have seen enough repeated negative reactions dealing with Mimosa and companion plants to not want to ever work with it again in my brews or recommend it to anyone. I don't know if it's the companion alkaloids or the high amount of tannins ect but something about that stuff isn't nice.
Also for me it has nothing to do with high vs low DMT content effecting the quality of the experience. I have Hawaiian Chacruna of legendary potency that works at roughly the same gram amounts as m. hostilis bark. I just don't like that Jurema in my Ayahuasca. Call it personal preference.
Jixe:
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I wouldn't mix acacia with ayahuasca vine (caapi) It's not a good idea in my experience and from seeing others especially with trouble breathing, this is why actually just mix aya vine and the chacruna or chali.
TheAppleCore:
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Definitely go with the chacruna (psychotria viridis).
There are a few reasons that mimosa hostilis is not ideal for a newcomer to ayahuasca. Firstly, p. viridis is essentially nontoxic, whereas m. hostilis has toxins that increase the likelihood of overdose, or at least a highly unpleasant experience (I have been there, due to careless brewing, and yes it is *horrible*). Secondly, m. hostilis is known as having a very harsh and unforgiving "spirit", whereas chacruna is generally considered to have more of a gentle and maternal spirit. Thirdly, chacruna has a very long history of traditional use in ayahuasca brews, and has a very good safety track record, whereas we are currently unsure of potential long-term health ramifications of m. hostilis as an aya admixture.
swimmingdancer:
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There are all sorts of alkaloids and various other compounds in the plants. One alkaloid that I know has been isolated in mimosa hostilis is yuremamine. There is not much yet known about yuremamine, it represents an entirely new family of indole derivatives (tryptophan, the precursor of serotonin is an indole as well). Yuremamine also contains DMT within its molecular structure. It has been suggested that perhaps one of yuremamine's properties might be that it acts as an MAOI or a prodrug, because mimosa has been found to be orally active while DMT on its own is not.
The hardest thing about Ayahuasca is the "problem child" part of it (not the caapi) but rather the hard to find good quality Hawaiian leaf. It is sporadic and difficult to find. Over the past several years had over 60 experiences in dreams, all with quality caapi and only good quality Hawaiian leaf. Too much leaf = terrifying experiences where only closing the eyes I was able to ride it thru (like peeling back the layer of an onion infinite times with eyes open, and even the slightest movement, say 1/2 of an inch of the body, would trigger massive new fluorescent CEV's with a new direction and theme), but with the right amount of leaf = perfect experiences that would last a good 3 to 4 hours with 90 minutes of very strong activity.
Learned how to modulate the strength by first brewing the leaf down to 3oz, then tasting it to see how bitter it was, the more bitter the stronger. With the leaf had at the time, 25g = perfect, 30g = strong, 35g = a bit too strong, 40g = ego loss. There is a fine line between a perfect mildly strong experience and ego loss, a matter of just 15 extra grams, but sometimes the leaf would be double the potency depending on the time of day it was picked, and in which case it would be double the bitterness, in which case learned to pour 1/2 of it out, and just use 1/2 of the leaf brew....took lots of experience to learn the bitterness trick, but it worked flawlessly thereafter. After accidentaly consuming in dreams lots of overly-bitter leaf brew which resulted in overly strong experiences, learned the perfect bitterness, and thus potency which I loved. When you get it right, it is heavenly.
25 to 35 grams was perfect to strong territory which was amazing to say the least, but 40 gram ego loss territory -- had been there a few times, and prefer to stay as far away from as possible, no fun, quite terrifying...but 25 to 35 grams was completely and absolutely amazing, but like I said, you gotta really watch the bitterness and use that as a gauge as 25 grams would sometimes (rarely like about 1 time out of 10) be like 50 grams when some of the leaf was picked at the "prime time of day", in which case it was extremely bitter, and not something you would want to drink all of in dreams, but use only 1/2 of instead.
And yes, you do want to take the leaf brew at the exact same time as the caapi brew, all mixed together in dreams, but test the bitterness of the leaf first! These days it is rare to find good quality leaf, but it does happen, and often a very long wait, thus the problem child in the mix. Page 149 of attached paper shows the tremendous variability of actives vs. time of day. Most leaf would be 1mg per g, and much more lower quality at 1/2mg per g. There is very little out there at anything above those levels despite what page 148 and 149 reveal. The dynamics of digestion in dreams of the leaf in it's natural boiled down salt liquid form is unbeatable & very special. To me, easy vs. hard Ayahuasca is all about quality of the problem child, which is quite a chore these days to locate. Bad quality is no fun and expensive...it's a long waiting game. Chaliponga do not like: unpredictable and can be physically taxing & scary....but chacruna is the kindest and non-toxic/safe/traditionally used by Shuar, UDV, Santo Daime, etc.
New continued topic: "Compilation of Caapi & harmala only visions from the literature"
in the Science Section of forum:
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=41940
