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What acid is best for extraction?

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Grower

Grower

Rising Star
Merits
42
I am new to extracting spice and i will follow the Cybs' New 'MAX ION' tek for my starter experiments with ACRB.
Now i wonder about the different acids one can use in the acidification phase.
The tek says vinegar (I don't have in pure form only 28% from food store) or ascorbic acid (vitamin C).
I have ascorbic acid in powder/salt form but i also have strong HCL, citrus acid.
Should i go with the ascorbic acid(vitamin C), citric acid or is it any benefit going with HCL?
Is there any benefit/drawback going with a weaker or stronger acid?
Or are there different benefits/drawbacks with all different acids?

Is there a common reported result that have given good results with a certain acid or isn't the acid type important as long you reach the proper PH?
I wonder why i don't see HCL in the acidification stage in any teks, is it hard to get in US or not good to use?

Grower
 
You can use hcl. You say the vinegar you have is 28%? Vingar in the States is 5% acetic acid in water. I think most people use vinegar or ascorbic acid because there is no real benefit in using hcl (it works, but doesn't bring anything else to the table). Vinegar is also very easily obtained. Also boiling hcl solution for hours on end can damage pans so you can really only use hcl if you are using all glassware.

I've used both both vinegar and ascorbic and I've never noticed any difference in the end product. It all ends up as freebase anyway.
 
The pH is really the key here, I always do my acid boils at pH 4. I have had excellent results with 5% distilled white vinegar and with powdered ascorbic acid. I did not notice any difference between the efficiency of the two. As for the HCl, I have seen reports of it being used, but as far as I know there would not be any significant benefits of using HCl over any other acid. Personally, I prefer to use food safe, non-corrosive acids whenever possible. Might as well go with vinegar, ascorbic, or citric acid since it will most likely give you the same results. I prefer ascorbic acid over vinegar simply due to the potent odor produced by simmering vinegar.
 
I also would prefer using a less strong acid as ascorbic acid over strong HCL, i think its 40%.
But i have it so i thought i ask.
I use the ascorbic acid then.
Regarding the vinegar we have weak vinegar (probably what you have) and strong vinegar witch are more concentrated but i don't think full strength possible.
This is very good that i can use a less aggressive acid as ascorbic acid for this.
Thank you.

Grower
 
DreaMTripper said:
Can you not buy cleaning vinegar?
As for citric acid I would avoid it Ive seen its soluble in naptha so any excess will end up in your product.
Click to expand...

How does that work?

Theres no citric acid left when it comes in contact with the naptha, its all been neutralized by your base, usually a hydroxide (na, potassium, calcium).

Do you mean the salts of citric acid and naoh, koh, or caoh are soluble in naptha?

Not saying your wrong, just wondering if you mean the salts formed when you add the base, not the citric acid itself, since it gets neuralized by the base before you add naptha.

Vinegar works great, fumaric/maleic acid works great, hcl i would avoid unless your really accurate with your concentrations and have a fume hood. AFAIK, it doesn't matter which non volatile acid you use, for the initial acid phase, since it gets neurtalized by the naoh.

I can understand the salts formed between the base, and citric acid, being soluble in naphta, just not citric acid, since its not there anymore as an acid. trisodium citrate i would think?

C3H5O(COOH)3(aq) + 3NaOH (aq) --> Na3C3H5O(COO)3(aq) +3H2O(l) +heat

citric acid + sodium hydroxide --> Trisodium citrate +water +heat

Trisodium citrate is there, citric acid is not when pulling freebase with naptha. the only other time you would have naptha over the liquid, is a defat, and that isn't pulling dmt citrate out of the acidic water, and isn't re-used to pull and freeze-x with under almost any circumstances.

Basically, do you mean trisodium citrate is soluble in naptha, when in a high ph water solution along with dmt freebase?

That i can understand.

Just a bit confused 😉 :)
 
Thanks Grower for asking this :) I was wondering the same thing today

I have distilled white vinegar 5% and also just obtained a powder which is citric/ascorbic mix.

I'd like to hear if any forms of these chemicals remain in the final product as well. I suppose I'll go with the reliable white vinegar eventually when I do extract but I also wonder even if the salts of these acids are soluble in naptha, will they precipitate out as readily as DMT?

Probably end up just saving the citric/ascorbic for some other extraction.

Peace,
~Ø~
 
Grower said:
I wonder why i don't see HCL in the acidification stage in any teks, is it hard to get in US or not good to use?

Grower
Click to expand...

Vovins tek uses muriatic acid which is pretty concentrated HCl and is not too hard to source in the US. Its used to clean swimming pools, IIRC. In the UK HCl of a similar concentration is available for cleaning brickwork.
 
Grower said:
Is there any benefit/drawback going with a weaker or stronger acid?
Or are there different benefits/drawbacks with all different acids?
Click to expand...

yes, and it's more apparent when salting.
polyprotic acids (ex. ascorbic, tartaric, phosphoric) are more messy to work with than monoprotic acids (ex. HCl, acetic), because polyprotics have multiple pKa's.
 
The Day Tripper said:
DreaMTripper said:
Can you not buy cleaning vinegar?
As for citric acid I would avoid it Ive seen its soluble in naptha so any excess will end up in your product.
Click to expand...

How does that work?

Theres no citric acid left when it comes in contact with the naptha, its all been neutralized by your base, usually a hydroxide (na, potassium, calcium).

Do you mean the salts of citric acid and naoh, koh, or caoh are soluble in naptha?

Not saying your wrong, just wondering if you mean the salts formed when you add the base, not the citric acid itself, since it gets neuralized by the base before you add naptha.

Vinegar works great, fumaric/maleic acid works great, hcl i would avoid unless your really accurate with your concentrations and have a fume hood. AFAIK, it doesn't matter which non volatile acid you use, for the initial acid phase, since it gets neurtalized by the naoh.

I can understand the salts formed between the base, and citric acid, being soluble in naphta, just not citric acid, since its not there anymore as an acid. trisodium citrate i would think?

C3H5O(COOH)3(aq) + 3NaOH (aq) --> Na3C3H5O(COO)3(aq) +3H2O(l) +heat

citric acid + sodium hydroxide --> Trisodium citrate +water +heat

Trisodium citrate is there, citric acid is not when pulling freebase with naptha. the only other time you would have naptha over the liquid, is a defat, and that isn't pulling dmt citrate out of the acidic water, and isn't re-used to pull and freeze-x with under almost any circumstances.

Basically, do you mean trisodium citrate is soluble in naptha, when in a high ph water solution along with dmt freebase?

That i can understand.

Just a bit confused 😉 :)
Click to expand...

Yeah my mistake i stand corrected..said the man in the orphopeadic shoes. My stoned brain hadnt read the tek you were using..
Im used to seeing people use tartaric acid to salt out from toluene or xylene and saw someone use citric acid on naptha. What seemed to be a tiny bit of citric acid precipitated, my thinking was it had stayed in the naptha from the salting. The bark had already been exhausted of alkaloids..If any of that makes sense..
 
Elementary, but iam not really sure what you mean be salting out.
Food grade (<always3) phosphoric acid is a good one to use.
Would there be any problems using acetic acid with naphtha?
There might be some in the product? That could be cleaned, or freebased.
What would be the best, easily available solvent to use with acetic acid?
 
MaNoMaNoM said:
Elementary, but iam not really sure what you mean be salting out.
Food grade (<always3) phosphoric acid is a good one to use.
Would there be any problems using acetic acid with naphtha?
There might be some in the product? That could be cleaned, or freebased.
What would be the best, easily available solvent to use with acetic acid?
Click to expand...

light-medium naphtha.

food-grade shouldn't be a concern if you're after something that's going to be vaporized and not eaten in a salad.
 
THANK YOU, i was under the impression that impurities were in the lesser graded substances.
i feel safer using food grade materials whenever possible.
 
In regards to vinegar, would normal white vinegar or cleaning vinegar be better?

I have not been able to find distilled vinegar anywhere, but i have plenty of White Vinegar.
 
White vinegar is usually 5% acetic acid cleaning vinegar 10% but could have harmful impurities from production as its not food grade..
Tartaric acid has had good feedback...
 
DreaMTripper said:
White vinegar is usually 5% acetic acid cleaning vinegar 10% but could have harmful impurities from production as its not food grade..
Tartaric acid has had good feedback...
Click to expand...

Thanks DT. I'll just wait until i find distilled vinegar or citric acid.
I don't like to steer off a TEK, so hopefully tomorrow i'll find something.
 

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