What good is DMT to a plant?

[Parshvik Chintan]

haha not a downer. Because neither you nor I were around that long ago to say for sure. Now if you came up with a source verifying it has been around for ages then ya I would be a bit bummed. It's like saying humans have always had the same brain chemistry. I dont know, have we?

i just assumed that since evolution occurs over such a long period of time, it would kinda necessitate that..

 

[changalvia]

In analogy, an animal with plenty of muscle mass is appealing to humans (due to its nutritional value) but muscles per se are of use to the animal (e.g. for locomotion).

That was quite sharp, thanks for the point of view!

 

[cyb]

Could it be that the molecule is a 'marker' of Sentience?

Some plants and animals may have evolved this way and are capable of 'senses'...:?
('Feel' the Sun's rays and convert the energy!?)

Touch some mimosas and they react by folding leaves...
Psilocybes have been considered 'sentient' by some...

(although I would hate to think that tearing up plants...'hurts' their 'conciousness')

 

[Infundibulum]

Could it be that the molecule is a 'marker' of Sentience?

Could be....

But for this to be true you'll have to demonstrate that there is a receptor for dmt (and related tryptamines) in the plants. If anyone asserts that dmt is a signalling molecule for plants then he has to, among others demonstrate that there is a receptor (or a signal receiver in lay terms) for it. Same goes for the plant neurotransmitter hypothesis.

 

[Vodsel]

As it happens with all secondary metabolites (which includes dmt) their roles in plant physiology are still obscure, yet it is commonly thought that they may have something to do with plant defences e.g. they can have antimicrobial action and/or being toxic to predators.

Are tryptamine alkaloids established to be just secondary metabolites?

Some plant alkaloids seem to go through metabolic turnover, being metabolically active in the plant, with concentration fluctuations that often go faster than the normal alkaloid degradation times. That does not imply they are bound to receptors, but they might be part of a more complex biochemical chain, not just dead ends, whichever their function might be if they were a final product or byproduct.

 

[cyb]

Could it be that the molecule is a 'marker' of Sentience?

Could be....

But for this to be true you'll have to demonstrate that there is a receptor for dmt (and related tryptamines) in the plants. If anyone asserts that dmt is a signalling molecule for plants then he has to, among others demonstrate that there is a receptor (or a signal receiver in lay terms) for it. Same goes for the plant neurotransmitter hypothesis.

Perhaps 'WE' are the intended 'receptors'...nature tends towards 'Symbiosis'.

(midichlorians...fact or fiction?)

 

[SKA]

I have pondered the many suggested uses that DMT may have to plants that create it.
Sofar I feel the Plant communication-theory the most likely.

Perhaps it has a bit of both suggested uses: Self defense & communication.

To simple creatures the DMT experience seems incomprehensible, terrifying, alienating & upsetting. It would deter them.
Many humans who try DMT have this primitive response. I imagine many animals (who accidentally ingest DMT)do too.

It takes a somewhat more evolved consciousness, with more restraint/discipline & more self-awareness,
to see any value & deeper meaning in a DMT experience rather than it just being a crazy ride.

This way it would deter herbivores/bugs/fungi that would mindlessly eat it to death, yet attract evolved humans
that value the spiritual knowledge they provide. These people would harvest mindfully & cultivate more & more of
these plants, aiding it in it's survival.

Recently DMT bearing plants have attracted a new enemy; Underevolved hedonistic humans with adrenaline addictions.
Alot of mindless people who'd try any drug they're offered and see DMT as just another "wild ride". They do not see
or seek any spiritually/psychologically valuable in the DMT trip. They're just after a cheap rush that Amphetamines may give them too. Because of this group of people DMT is getting a bad name and demands are rising. The result is
that criminal mass-drugdealers may start making & selling DMT too. The result being the demand for MHRB, Acacia-bark..etc will rise like crazy. So that seems it should massively THREATEN the survival of these DMT rich plants.

I sure hope enough people will start homegrowing Mimosa Hostilis, Psychotria Viridis, various Acacias & friends.
It is so unfortunate that I cannot easily do it because of the cold, dark climate & not being able to afford using
much more energy than I already do. I would have started growing various Acacias, P.Viridis, Yopo, Vilca & Virola
a long time ago if I could

 

[nen888]

..except i've never seen any demonstrated evidence that increasing DMT in a plant discourages insects ingesting them..

btw SKA, Phalaris doesn't mind a bit of cold and dark..

 

[Ambivalent]

That does not imply they are bound to receptors, but they might be part of a more complex biochemical chain, not just dead ends, whichever their function might be if they were a final product or byproduct.

i think this is very very likely. some time ago i read that dmt is a precursor to growth hormones for the plant.

edit :

Many plants contain small amounts of tryptamine, for example, as a possible intermediate in one biosynthetic pathway to the plant hormone indole-3-acetic acid.[3]
^ Nobutaka Takahashi (1986). Chemistry of Plant Hormones

 

[The Neural]

More importantly, we should be able to deconstruct and analyse the question itself: Is DMT a "neurotransmitter" by itself? Just as one substance may be a poison for one animal, it may be a regular nutrient for another (like Infundibulum's example). The same may apply to any substance, DMT or whatnot. The notion that we may be utilising endogenous DMT as a neurotransmitter, does not necessarily means that outside of our own system, is a neurotransmitter.

Regarding the question on whether DMT is "just an end-product", there are numerous anectodal reports how one should leave the Phalaris grass to acquire a reddish hue, indication that it may be dying, so levels of 5-Meo-DMT would presumably be increased. If this is true, then it may be more likely that a lot of tryptophan derived products are metabolising, to an "end product".

Or again, it may be a part of the plant's defense. Let's ask..

Anyone speaks Phalarian, Acacian, or Mimosese?

 

[Parshvik Chintan]

Anyone speaks Phalarian, Acacian, or Mimosese?

i think manic minxx might..

 

[SKA]

I've allways been detered from Phalaris due to the known presence of Gramine in many strains.
That and the rather low %age of DMT(didn't know the 5-MEO was more than just a rumor).

I'll look back into phalaris to find a Gramine-free strain with an average DMT/5-MeO %age of at least 0,5 %. Otherwise it would hardily be worthwhile. Perhaps the Nexus-Wiki can help me find this ideal Phalaris strain. I've heard the name Phalaris "big Medicine" seems to be what I'm looking for, but I'll have to look into it deeper.


I guess in an attempt to answer the title-question of this topic, we could look at
plants, fungi, Microbes & animals that do NOT contain DMT/the enzymes to make DMT from
common, abundant amines in their diet.
Perhaps if we make a list of "Organisms containing DMT" and "Organism void of DMT"
and look long enough we may start seeing commonalities between DMT-organisms which they
do not share with non DMT-organisms.

Perhaps a better oversight of the commonalities between the various DMT-organisms can help
us in understanding DMT's role in these organisms.

Any biologists/phyto-chemists who can help here?

 

[Parshvik Chintan]

I've allways been detered from Phalaris due to the known presence of Gramine in many strains.
That and the rather low %age of DMT(didn't know the 5-MEO was more than just a rumor).

gramine was found to not be the cause of staggers, and is relatively non-toxic to humans

5meoDMT is more toxic it could be argued than gramine or hordenine, physiologically...

Gramine in animal studies was only toxic at very high doses compared to what would be present in a theoretical extraction..also, Gramine has had use as a human health supplement..
but there are known non-Gramine strains (Big Medicine, AQ1 etc) so it shouldn't be an issue except for the field-researcher

its open phalaris season again.. there is no need to be afraid anymore.

 

[nen888]

..yeah SKA Big Medicine, AQ1, 'Australia'..

..i'm trying to get the reference now, but it is my understanding that ALL plants (& animals) have the genes required to synthesize DMT..it is not understood why some do sometimes, others don't other times, and a few do all the time..

whatever DMT is/does, i suggest that it's vital to carbon-based lifeforms in some way..perhaps more 'core' in function than a neurotransmitter..

 

[Infundibulum]

..i'm trying to get the reference now, but it is my understanding that ALL plants (& animals) have the genes required to synthesize DMT..it is not understood why some do sometimes, others don't other times, and a few do all the time..

Having the genes required for synthesizing DMT is most certainty no big deal (it's literally just a couple of enzymes after all). The big deal is to make them work together, i.e. express then in the same tissues, target then in the same organelle tune them to work in tandem etc.

Recently DMT bearing plants have attracted a new enemy; Underevolved hedonistic humans with adrenaline addictions.
Alot of mindless people who'd try any drug they're offered and see DMT as just another "wild ride". They do not see
or seek any spiritually/psychologically valuable in the DMT trip. They're just after a cheap rush that Amphetamines may give them too. Because of this group of people DMT is getting a bad name and demands are rising. The result is
that criminal mass-drugdealers may start making & selling DMT too. The result being the demand for MHRB, Acacia-bark..etc will rise like crazy. So that seems it should massively THREATEN the survival of these DMT rich plants.

But usually the opposite happens - if a plant has a trait with appeal to humans, then this plant is guaranteed a fair treatment, at least from a human-plant symbiosis point of view. just like crop plants and cannabis. This holds true for all plants humans use and sustainability is just a matter of time if we want to continue receiving from said plants.

Gramine in animal studies was only toxic at very high doses compared to what would be present in a theoretical extraction..also, Gramine has had use as a human health supplement..
but there are known non-Gramine strains (Big Medicine, AQ1 etc) so it shouldn't be an issue except for the field-researcher

its open phalaris season again.. there is no need to be afraid anymore.

The route of administration is important to point here. Eating it is one thing, smoking it is another...In analogy, we can eat a fair amount of cocaine as a lot of it is neutralised by first-pass metabolism but you can only inject that much before cardiac arrest or empty wallet hits you.

I guess in an attempt to answer the title-question of this topic, we could look at
plants, fungi, Microbes & animals that do NOT contain DMT/the enzymes to make DMT from
common, abundant amines in their diet.

The geneticist's strategy would be to genetically disrupt dmt production in a dmt-containing plant and see how the plant copes with it.

 

[Parshvik Chintan]

The route of administration is important to point here. Eating it is one thing, smoking it is another...In analogy, we can eat a fair amount of cocaine as a lot of it is neutralised by first-pass metabolism but you can only inject that much before cardiac arrest or empty wallet hits you.

fair enough. but even still, the amounts of gramine in an extraction would be negligible, yes?

 

[cyb]

The geneticist's strategy would be to genetically disrupt dmt production in a dmt-containing plant and see how the plant copes with it.

What if a geneticist were to turn that on it's head and introduce a Human receptor site (supposing it could survive) to a plant/mushroom and observe the interaction of the molecule and said site??

(Possible conciousness/hyperspace in a Petri dish??)

 

[Parshvik Chintan]

What if a geneticist were to turn that on it's head and introduce a Human receptor site (supposing it could survive) to a plant/mushroom and observe the interaction of the molecule and said site??

:?:

 

[Jees]

Striking that root bark has highest content, so it's functionality is likely most useful there under the ground. I think decay might be a strong activity in that world. Decay as another form of stress?

 

[The Neural]

What if a geneticist were to turn that on it's head and introduce a Human receptor site (supposing it could survive) to a plant/mushroom and observe the interaction of the molecule and said site??
(Possible conciousness/hyperspace in a Petri dish??)

Human receptor site = Protein that is directed by human biological processes to assimilate functionality as a human receptor.

The equivalent of your question in a computer analogy would be to introduce a C++ script to an Assembly based system. Don't know what mr.Assembly would say about that weird, indecipherable file in its system, but if I was mr.Assembly, I would readily poo it out and go on about my business.