What good is DMT to a plant?

[The Neural]

I have a (maybe?) dumb question - would a bug or ant which supposedly are not conscious ( of their consciousness ) know that he got poisoned?

I can try to elaborate if it doesnt make sense.

Blesses!

First of all we would have to assume that it does not have a consciousness, which is completely unknown. But even if we assume that, an alarming function in a system that has been poisoned should exist in all living organisms that strive for survival.

 

[JourneyToJah]

Let me elaborate a bit.

We dont know at what level plants and bugs are conscious of their consciousness and what they consider of being their world. How do they perceive their environment and how do they react when psychoactive poisoning occurs ?

Also, how would long term exposure to, say, DMT affect so-called consciousness of the given organism? Maybe speed up evolution?

Crazy questions but I think its the place to play with theories

Peace

 

[The Neural]

Let me elaborate a bit.

We dont know at what level plants and bugs are conscious of their consciousness and what they consider of being their world. How do they perceive their environment and how do they react when psychoactive poisoning occurs ?

While there is research on various animals and their sensorimotor systems, how "they" perceive their environment may always be unknown to us. We may be able to understand a few things on how they process environmental signals, but their own perception is totally out of reach for us. In addition, we do not know if the effects of their hypothesised "poisoning" is "psychoactive", it could "feel" like nothing at all; all depends on their system and how the relevant substances are assimilated in each of them (something that is very poorly understood).

That area of research was more rigorous some decades ago, with various studies on rabbits, cats, and mice with the administration of LSD. Still, researchers could only report observations on rather basic functions of the respective animals, such as reflexes, mobility, startle reflex etc.

 

[JourneyToJah]

Which reminds me of this :

 

[nen888]

..still reading the last pages posts, but for now..

Your Theobromine/Chocolate-reference made me think about another option.

Appearantly Chocolate is quite toxic to dogs. Perhaps to more canines?
What if a small herbivore, being a prey for canines, ate alot of Cacao leaves &/or seeds?
Would it contain enough of Cacao's alkaloids/actives to essentially make these herbivores toxic to Canines?

Bird eats & spreads Cacao seeds & as a reward becomes Toxic to the predators that often hunt them? Sounds symbiotic.
Could DMT have such an effect too? Giraffes are known to be particulairly fond of Acacia foliage. What predators are
the most common threat to giraffes? Lions? Hyenas? How would these predators respond to orally ingested DMT? I can only
imagine that, eating such amounts of Acacia foliage all day, the Giraffe's flesh must be loaded with DMT and/or metabolites. Some african tribe is known to hunt for giraffe to produce an entheogenic brew from it's liver & bone-marrow. Could the lever & bonemarrow contain DMT or metabolites & could these be toxic to hyenas or Lions? Lions & Hyenas might learn to avoid Giraffes if they consistently get poisoned from eating their flesh.

Just another idea to consider.


More to consider:

Pests

In Australia, Acacia species are sometimes used as food plants by the larvae of hepialid moths of the genus Aenetus including A. ligniveren. These burrow horizontally into the trunk then vertically down. Other Lepidoptera larvae which have been recorded feeding on Acacia include Brown-tail, Endoclita malabaricus and Turnip Moth. The leaf-mining larvae of some bucculatricid moths also feed on Acacia: Bucculatrix agilis feeds exclusively on Acacia horrida and Bucculatrix flexuosa feeds exclusively on Acacia nilotica.
Acacias contain a number of organic compounds that defend them from pests and grazing animals.[10]

Another thing is that many DMT containing plants are Legumes. Which are known to be nitrogen fixing; filtering nitrogen out of the air and putting it into the soil. Does DMT, like all tryptamines, not contain a Nitrogen atom?
Perhaps DMT could be an intermediary in the process of bringing the nitrogen absorbed from the air down to the roots & into the soil? So many things to consider.

..very interesting ideas SKA..

..yes Nitrogen is crucial to DMT..but the nitrogen mostly comes from symbiotic bacteria living in the roots..the plant then goes through several stages to turn a lot of it into DMT..in the case of Mimosa hostillis this could be in order to make the hyper-molecule Yuremamine (which is psychoactive)..
it could perhaps aid as a growth hormone, but that in legumes is indole-acetic-acid, which is a precursor to tryptamines..so the plant is taking valuable root growth hormone and turning it into DMT..!?

..on giraffes vs lions..i don't think AFIK that DMT's been found to be any more toxic to cats than other animals.. ..but interesting point about dogs and chocolate..always an exception i guess..AFAIK the lungfish is the only known animal without cannabinoid receptors (can't get stoned with the rest of us)
.

 

[Infundibulum]

it could perhaps aid as a growth hormone, but that in legumes is indole-acetic-acid, which is a precursor to tryptamines..so the plant is taking valuable root growth hormone and turning it into DMT..!?

Biochemically speaking, I think it is the other way around - dmt oxidises to indole-3-acetic acid; (trypt)amines are also neutralised by converting them to their acetic acid derivatives in our bodies, this is where MAO enzymes make their major contribution.

Generally speaking, acetic acid adducts are oxidisation dead-ends in metabolic pathways and it makes more sense(energy-wise) for a plant to oxidise dmt to indoleacetic acid rather than reduce and aminate indoleacetic acid to dmt.

Pretty much what that means is that the high concentration of dmt in a given plant tissue might very well have to do with plant hormone synthesis!

 

[Ambivalent]

Which reminds me of this :

a little off topic but im really curious
this was a subject of conversation with my friend few days ago. one thing that is very unclear for me is, how can the insects be affected by these substances at all if they dont have the receptor sites that these substances bind to (or they do?)

i was reading a bit on spiders and it says that their nervous system is like most arthropods comprised of two tube like ganglias which are filled with nerve cells and connected to the spiders sensory system. so in fact they have some receptors like photosensitive receptor sites for their eyes and receptors for vibration and movement. but is their behaviour affected by psychedelic substances, or it will act as a poison iam a little unclear about this.

 

[JourneyToJah]

That is close to what I was asking only you stated it better.

This is what I meant with toxic poisoning vs. psychoactive poisoning. If they don't have receptors for certain chemicals would such organisms still consume given chems and synthethize them to fit ?

 

[nen888]

it could perhaps aid as a growth hormone, but that in legumes is indole-acetic-acid, which is a precursor to tryptamines..so the plant is taking valuable root growth hormone and turning it into DMT..!?

Biochemically speaking, I think it is the other way around - dmt oxidises to indole-3-acetic acid; (trypt)amines are also neutralised by converting them to their acetic acid derivatives in our bodies, this is where MAO enzymes make their major contribution.

Generally speaking, acetic acid adducts are oxidisation dead-ends in metabolic pathways and it makes more sense(energy-wise) for a plant to oxidise dmt to indoleacetic acid rather than reduce and aminate indoleacetic acid to dmt.

Pretty much what that means is that the high concentration of dmt in a given plant tissue might very well have to do with plant hormone synthesis!

..cool! i wonder if it's a human growth hormone then?
given also

..neither 'need' it to live..

You cannot say that with certainty. Here is a study that suggested that DMT production is
necessary at the late developmental stages of the mouse embryo to activate Sigma 1 receptors. It is not impossible that their suggestions could have some merit.

..good find the Neural! ..what i meant, which sure i can't say with certainty, is that DMT may not always be present in humans (not found in all test subjects at all times), so it may not be essential all the time..
but in the embryo stage..maybe..

..i don't think we can be sure it is a neurotransmitter in mammals..
.

 

[The Neural]

..i don't think we can be sure it is a neurotransmitter in mammals..

Its class deems it a neuromodulator at least. Since it's produced in normal metabolism, and shows affinity on the trace amine receptors, it's highly unlikely that it is anything else besides a neurotransmitter or a neuromodulator (in its normal and endogenous quantity and distribution of course, not when ingested/smoked).

I am sharing the paper I quoted a few posts ago.

 

[Infundibulum]

..i don't think we can be sure it is a neurotransmitter in mammals..

Its class deems it a neuromodulator at least. Since it's produced in normal metabolism, and shows affinity on the trace amine receptors, it's highly unlikely that it is anything else besides a neurotransmitter or a neuromodulator (in its normal and endogenous quantity and distribution of course, not when ingested/smoked).

I am sharing the paper I quoted a few posts ago.

For something to be a neurotransmitter it has to be packed in presynaptic vesicles and be released in the synaptic space; this is the definition of neurotransmitter and there is poor evidence of dmt acting as such.

I like more the idea of dmt being a sort-of hormone; hormones are convey signals between tissues that are far from each other, often using the blood as the transport highway. Think of estrogen, a hormone secreted from gonads to the blood where from it can reach other, distant tissues like the pituitary. The presence of dmt in the blood (and its general presence in the circulation) is more consistent with it being an endocrine hormone, academically speaking. What message(s) it conveys and among which tissues, well here we're at a loss.

 

[nen888]

..i don't think we can be sure it is a neurotransmitter in mammals..

Its class deems it a neuromodulator at least. Since it's produced in normal metabolism, and shows affinity on the trace amine receptors, it's highly unlikely that it is anything else besides a neurotransmitter or a neuromodulator (in its normal and endogenous quantity and distribution of course, not when ingested/smoked).

I am sharing the paper I quoted a few posts ago.

For something to be a neurotransmitter it has to be packed in presynaptic vesicles and be released in the synaptic space; this is the definition of neurotransmitter and there is poor evidence of dmt acting as such.

I like more the idea of dmt being a sort-of hormone; hormones are convey signals between tissues that are far from each other, often using the blood as the transport highway. Think of estrogen, a hormone secreted from gonads to the blood where from it can reach other, distant tissues like the pituitary. The presence of dmt in the blood (and its general presence in the circulation) is more consistent with it being an endocrine hormone, academically speaking. What message(s) it conveys and among which tissues, well here we're at a loss.

..yes, there is still absolutely no solid proof that DMT acts as a neurotransmitter in the brain..

this is a big assumption..

amines have a wide range of physiological actions, not simply neural..

and beyond that, there isn't even the slightest of explanations as to why, upon presumably bonding to the 5HT-2 and 7 receptors, DMT produces the effects that it does..it may simply lead to a cascade of effects deriving from multiple systems..

in other words, we cannot say with any certainty that it doesn't produce similar effects in spiders, or even trees for that matter..it seems brains or even neurons may not be required for intelligence..
see How Brainless Slime Molds Redefine Intelligence - Scientific American

 

[iracema]

I have reasons to believe it's involved in birth, awareness and death of the plant, as it is for us.
For example, observing some wild juremas when they're healthy and naturally water-supplied, I noticed there's little redness in the root bark and almost none in the stem bark (it's all green).
However, the ones in dry spots, that loses all the leafs and are in the process of dying thirsty, have oily red root barks (that sticks to the hand) and dark red stem barks.
Several times I confirmed this occurrence while exploring.
We assume the seeds have great amounts of dmt as well.
So, the plant have overdoses of dmt at birth/death and sustainable amounts during life, just like us...

 

[nen888]

Iracema wrote:

I have reasons to believe it's involved in birth, awareness and death of the plant, as it is for us.
For example, observing some wild juremas when they're healthy and naturally water-supplied, I noticed there's little redness in the root bark and almost none in the stem bark (it's all green).
However, the ones in dry spots, that loses all the leafs and are in the process of dying thirsty, have oily red root barks (that sticks to the hand) and dark red stem barks.
Several times I confirmed this occurrence while exploring.
We assume the seeds have great amounts of dmt as well.
So, the plant have overdoses of dmt at birth/death and sustainable amounts during life, just like us...

..i like this interpretation..

i thought i should add a personal note: years ago i found an acacia tree that a large branch had fallen from, pulling some of the trunk with it, which i took home..when i went to grind it up i noticed that half of it was inhabited by small ants (living in the bark/wood) ..i took the ants nest section (3/4 of it) back to the tree, not wanting to genocide a whole colony, and extracted the remaining bark (which still had some ant tunnels in it)
..it was full of DMT (and other alkaloids) ..the first few times i vaporised the extract i was taken promptly and deeply into some kind of ant-intelligence instruction..like a giant 'ant-mind' telling me: 'this is where we store the eggs', 'this is how we farm the fungus' etc..after each experience i would think wow, very interesting, but means almost nothing to me as a human..due to the residents, very ant-orientated..noticeably different to trees without ants' nests in them..
now, this may be subjective, but it did lead me to think about how plants 'control' other organisms..
even that DMT may make more sense to an insect than a human..

but, for now, i think birth, growth and maybe death seem key points, as Iracema suggests..
..

 

[iracema]

..it was full of DMT (and other alkaloids) ..the first few times i vaporised the extract i was taken promptly and deeply into some kind of ant-intelligence instruction..like a giant 'ant-mind' telling me: 'this is where we store the eggs', 'this is how we farm the fungus' etc..after each experience i would think wow, very interesting, but means almost nothing to me as a human..due to the residents, very ant-orientated..noticeably different to trees without ants' nests in them..
now, this may be subjective, but it did lead me to think about how plants 'control' other organisms..
even that DMT may make more sense to an insect than a human..

very interesting indeed..
this means a lot for us humans, as we connect to the giant 'human mind'.
not to mention that we become someway organisms 'controlled' by the plant too.
not so controlled, I would say oriented.
in my case, I feel 'suggestions' many times to nutter the plant, to spread the seeds, to defend their survival, and so on...

 

[cyb]

^^^ Amazing...subjective, maybe...but what if the molecule IS a chemical language, expressed through interaction with other lifeforms via some form of telepathy?

Could this explain the thought transference and obvious teachings that it provides some users...?

I'm reminded of Eywa (Mother Godess) from Avatar.

Now wouldn't THAT be a trip??:surprised

(strange things happen on this mad ball of rock)

 

[Parshvik Chintan]

not so controlled, I would say oriented.

from an outside perspective: is there a difference?

 

[Infundibulum]

I have reasons to believe it's involved in birth, awareness and death of the plant, as it is for us.

I am not very fond of such interpretation because they are vague enough to include almost everything a plant has, i.e. chlorophyl is involved in birth, awareness and death of the plant. And every signalling molecule in living organisms is somehow involved in birth awareness and death; it is very easy to draw lines when you go so unspecific.

Ascribing a specific function to a given molecule is not easy task and you could get different (but often not conflicting) answers. Molecules within an organism have functions in the context of cells, which give it a function in the context of tissue, then organ, then organism then ecosystem and so forth. Molecules have biochemical, molecular, cellular and so forth.

example given: What is the function of the molecule haem?

In the context of core biochemistry, it is the molecule that binds oxygen
In the context of molecular biology, it is the core constituent of heamoglobin
In the context of red blood cells, it is what carries oxygen from lungs to tissues
In the context of organism it is essential for respiration
In the context of ecosystem, it is essential for the existence of most animals.
etc.

Looked like this, heam damn looks like a prime spiritual molecule! (I'm not saying that it isnt!). Maybe we should smoke some of it:grin: Describing function for haem is relatively easy and I think everyone will have hard time ascribing the functions for more accessory, multi-purpose molecules, such as testosterone or serotonin.

To get back in the beginning, in the cases when we do not know, ascribing too a specific function means that we'll be almost certainly wrong; ascribing too a general or vague function and we'll be most certainly correct, but that statement will be of little actual value.

For example, observing some wild juremas when they're healthy and naturally water-supplied, I noticed there's little redness in the root bark and almost none in the stem bark (it's all green).
However, the ones in dry spots, that loses all the leafs and are in the process of dying thirsty, have oily red root barks (that sticks to the hand) and dark red stem barks.
Several times I confirmed this occurrence while exploring.
We assume the seeds have great amounts of dmt as well.
So, the plant have overdoses of dmt at birth/death and sustainable amounts during life, just like us...

Nice observations. It would be nice to actually know what is going on with dmt levels; durign these different states. Still though, we really have very little clue as to what dmt does...

 

[JourneyToJah]

Were there any neurological tests made on humans on DMT? I would like to see how brain activity would change during a trip in hyperspace.

Also, another interesting thought... it would be nice to experiment with DMT into different cell organisms ( non intelligent life ) over longer period of times

 

[cyb]

it would be nice to experiment with DMT into different cell organisms ( non intelligent life ) over longer period of times

Tripping Fruit flies...:surprised