The Neural
Rising Star
JourneyToJah said:
What type of measurement of brain activity are you looking for? Would an EEG study aid in your understanding? Here is one ( 1998 )
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What good is DMT to a plant?
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What type of measurement of brain activity are you looking for? Would an EEG study aid in your understanding? Here is one ( 1998 )
The Neural
Rising Star
nen888 said:
Agreed. Most likely the effects elicited are a result of other processes affected by DMT concentrations.
nen888 said:
Of course they do, I just find it hard to dedicate focus on intestinal, muscular etc receptors for certain amines, since it is highly unlikely that the binding of amines to the aforementioned receptors produces any kind of altered state (despite nausea, and other biological effects/side-effects). Neural actions are not to be regarded as "simple", as neurons exist all over our bodies.
nen888 said:
This is a big discussion, and I don't see what the concept of "intelligence" has anything to do with this topic. The observation that slime reacts to the environment in synchronicity may have nothing to do with intelligence, again, intelligence as a term depends on the discipline that studies it.
Post #118 should be a sticky.
On another note, since I do like to believe that the brain plays the most prominent role in how these substances are manifested in the human system, I am attaching another paper on the trace amine receptors.
JourneyToJah
Free Spirit
Thanks so much, The Neural. Will definately help me ! 
The Neural
Rising Star
JourneyToJah said:Thanks so much, The Neural. Will definately help me !
Glad it may be of help to you! It wasn't any help to me to be honest, because as the authors correctly pointed out, the EEG peaks do not really say a lot, and we cannot practically distinguish peaks and how they relate to various b-carbolines and dmt ingested. To top the uncertainty, there was no baseline/control condition, which really brought down the power of the study.
Ah well. At least some people down at SD accepted EEG caps and experimentation, that's something at least.
JourneyToJah
Free Spirit
It is good for a starting point. I look forward into learning what exactly happens both physiologically and mentally when taking drugs.
Thanks again
Thanks again
The Neural
Rising Star
JourneyToJah said:It is good for a starting point. I look forward into learning what exactly happens both physiologically and mentally when taking drugs.
Thanks again
Then I strongly recommend this read, provides substantial information on a decent spectrum.
JourneyToJah
Free Spirit
Thank you again, Neural. You saved me pushing a lot of buttons 
WOW! Its amazing the amount of information on different drugs there.
Well apreciated and I recomend others get this too !
WOW! Its amazing the amount of information on different drugs there.
Well apreciated and I recomend others get this too !
Parshvik Chintan
Esteemed member
i am aware, however if a colony of creatures did the bidding of plants (of their own free will), from an outside perspective, would it not appear to be the same as if they were controlled?iracema said:
Ambivalent
Rising Star
Parshvik Chintan said:
but, can you give one example where this happens in nature ?
My thoughts will likely be similar to those of some others, but I am writing to share my own perspective on this topic.
The concept that DMT and its occurrence are here for human, or other animal use is very interesting. From an evolutionary perspective however it is noteworthy that dmt is metabolized so quickly by our species that there is no way for an evolutionary relationship to occur in terms of a developing interaction, because technology is required for dmt to be useful, that being said currently technology now allows an evolutionary relationship between our species and dmt.
From another perspective the use of dmt in archaic culture is linked to ayahuasca, the use of which is typically attributed to the conference of technological knowledge to humans via spirits or, or through the imitation of other animal species which partook of the vine. In terms of the former acquisition (as well as the latter in many cases) of knowledge via spirits there is a continuation of this theme which claims that the use of dmt containing plants was taught to humans via spirits of plants, ancestors, animals or perhaps more interestingly in my own case, those which are often termed as spirits, which are very old, but not human, animal, ancestral or anything like that. That is however another topic entirely, what I bring this up for is that in the case of this type of teaching there are two perspectives I enjoy considering.
If the use of such plants and the corresponding technology was acquired via instruction or transmission of knowledge to our species then there might be considered two aspects to this in terms of the occurrence of these alkaloids. The first aspect of occurrence is general, this is to state that the occurrence of DMT for example is neither intended nor unintended for a specific use by a specific species, as are in general all molecules that occur in nature. However in terms of this once a technology for the use of these alkaloids has been obtained, developed and or established, then the utility of the molecules implies a purpose, which from a human perspective appears to be deliberate ergo there arises a concept that the occurrence is itself deliberate. The second aspect of occurrence is opposed to the first insofar that the concept that the molecule is deliberately placed in naturen does not arise from the perspective of utility, but from the occurrence being itself deliberate as that the molecule was placed in nature for such use. In one case the intent of use arises from our species, in the other the intent of use arises from some other agent, be it nature, god or whatever creator concept is involved.
I have issues with the concept that all things are to an end specifically, this is to say a concept of final effect, which is linked to the concept of a final cause, which arises from a primal cause or initial act which is aimed towards the final effect. This teleological perspective in our species is related to our species specifically in terms of our existence, that is to say that we perceive the final cause as dealing specifically with and intended specifically for our species, thus this view is that all things, DMT included, are for the purpose of the initiation of the final cause so as to reach the end towards which all is intended. I have two issues with this, first, what if the final cause does exist in terms of an end, to which all is a means but suppose that this end is not specific to our kind any more than it is to bacteria. If bacteria thought about us, would they consider us food placed here for them to consume? Would they not also create a concept that all things that bacteria can make use of are deliberately placed here by god or creator or nature specifically for the use of bacteria, to the purpose of the final cause and effect which that creator intends for bacteria?
The second issue I have with this teleological concept is that what if there is no final cause or effect, or initial cause or effect? What if now is all there is in terms of intention and what is deliberate? What if now is the only deliberate thing and everything else is just a developing, changing and impermanent pattern? What if everything we think in terms of why things are here is itself maya, an illusion of perception, and the only things we are correct about are not in terms of why, or purpose, but instead are observations and measurements. As if to say that we are deluded into thinking cause and effect are separable events... What if every cause is an effect and every effect a cause? If this is true then dmt cannot be placed in nature deliberately, likewise if it is true then there is no answer to why it is here in terms of utility, we can only observe that it exists and make use of this knowledge. Psychologically we are compelled to answer the unanswerable, we consistently come up with answers to questions that cannot be answered and these answers vary and change from culture to culture and over time. Perhaps the question of what good dmt is to a plant is another way of asking why it is here, and perhaps much like the question of why we are here, the answer is the same, there is no answer, no purpose to our own existence beyond what our narrow human minds are capable of conceiving and utilizing via our own intentions...
Perhaps letting go of the question why is itself an enlightening act...
Why I think that... I have no idea.
The concept that DMT and its occurrence are here for human, or other animal use is very interesting. From an evolutionary perspective however it is noteworthy that dmt is metabolized so quickly by our species that there is no way for an evolutionary relationship to occur in terms of a developing interaction, because technology is required for dmt to be useful, that being said currently technology now allows an evolutionary relationship between our species and dmt.
From another perspective the use of dmt in archaic culture is linked to ayahuasca, the use of which is typically attributed to the conference of technological knowledge to humans via spirits or, or through the imitation of other animal species which partook of the vine. In terms of the former acquisition (as well as the latter in many cases) of knowledge via spirits there is a continuation of this theme which claims that the use of dmt containing plants was taught to humans via spirits of plants, ancestors, animals or perhaps more interestingly in my own case, those which are often termed as spirits, which are very old, but not human, animal, ancestral or anything like that. That is however another topic entirely, what I bring this up for is that in the case of this type of teaching there are two perspectives I enjoy considering.
If the use of such plants and the corresponding technology was acquired via instruction or transmission of knowledge to our species then there might be considered two aspects to this in terms of the occurrence of these alkaloids. The first aspect of occurrence is general, this is to state that the occurrence of DMT for example is neither intended nor unintended for a specific use by a specific species, as are in general all molecules that occur in nature. However in terms of this once a technology for the use of these alkaloids has been obtained, developed and or established, then the utility of the molecules implies a purpose, which from a human perspective appears to be deliberate ergo there arises a concept that the occurrence is itself deliberate. The second aspect of occurrence is opposed to the first insofar that the concept that the molecule is deliberately placed in naturen does not arise from the perspective of utility, but from the occurrence being itself deliberate as that the molecule was placed in nature for such use. In one case the intent of use arises from our species, in the other the intent of use arises from some other agent, be it nature, god or whatever creator concept is involved.
I have issues with the concept that all things are to an end specifically, this is to say a concept of final effect, which is linked to the concept of a final cause, which arises from a primal cause or initial act which is aimed towards the final effect. This teleological perspective in our species is related to our species specifically in terms of our existence, that is to say that we perceive the final cause as dealing specifically with and intended specifically for our species, thus this view is that all things, DMT included, are for the purpose of the initiation of the final cause so as to reach the end towards which all is intended. I have two issues with this, first, what if the final cause does exist in terms of an end, to which all is a means but suppose that this end is not specific to our kind any more than it is to bacteria. If bacteria thought about us, would they consider us food placed here for them to consume? Would they not also create a concept that all things that bacteria can make use of are deliberately placed here by god or creator or nature specifically for the use of bacteria, to the purpose of the final cause and effect which that creator intends for bacteria?
The second issue I have with this teleological concept is that what if there is no final cause or effect, or initial cause or effect? What if now is all there is in terms of intention and what is deliberate? What if now is the only deliberate thing and everything else is just a developing, changing and impermanent pattern? What if everything we think in terms of why things are here is itself maya, an illusion of perception, and the only things we are correct about are not in terms of why, or purpose, but instead are observations and measurements. As if to say that we are deluded into thinking cause and effect are separable events... What if every cause is an effect and every effect a cause? If this is true then dmt cannot be placed in nature deliberately, likewise if it is true then there is no answer to why it is here in terms of utility, we can only observe that it exists and make use of this knowledge. Psychologically we are compelled to answer the unanswerable, we consistently come up with answers to questions that cannot be answered and these answers vary and change from culture to culture and over time. Perhaps the question of what good dmt is to a plant is another way of asking why it is here, and perhaps much like the question of why we are here, the answer is the same, there is no answer, no purpose to our own existence beyond what our narrow human minds are capable of conceiving and utilizing via our own intentions...
Perhaps letting go of the question why is itself an enlightening act...
Why I think that... I have no idea.
Parshvik Chintan
Esteemed member
post #42 has a link to a list of 5 examples (the first 3 are on the first page), i am sure there are many more that we both are and are not aware of.Ambivalent said:
Ambivalent
Rising Star
Parshvik Chintan said:
but that is called adaptation, and symbiosis. both organisms have a mutual benefit(ants and acacias, butterflies and flowers). so i dont see how your example fits here, because none of the organisms do this cause they were bidded. they just think they are doing this for their own benefit and survival.just my opinion.
edit : interesting theory though, on the ants and acacias.like you said, it would be nice if it was cited.
If indole-3-acetic acid is the growth hormone found in Legumes, perhaps
Acacias make loads of DMT just so they can convert it to indole-3-acetic acid in
times of need/oppertunity for growth(during the vurnerable seedling stage, during the onset of it's ideal season..etc)
Perhaps Acacias convert excess indole-3-acetic acid into DMT, to convert back into indole-3-acetic acid
when the plant needs to/has oppertunity to grow. In this case DMT could be a growth-hormone reserve as it were.
And on the note of effecting the consciousness of insects with DMT and friends...
I've pondered this before and I guess a bunch of simple experiments wouldn't be that difficult.
I believe these particulair ant farms are easy to find & cheap so you could easily
do alot of experimenting with them. Perhaps for other insects too.
Which leads me into contemplation....again
I for one wouldn't be surprised if Termites would quickly die or become unfertile in
a DMT laden antfarm, given the fact that they love munching wood, seem to thrive in
every location where Acacias naturally grow(Australia, Africa, Central America),
they're likely to be an old natural enemy of many Acacia species. So DMT may still have a roll as an insecticide.
Regarding the ants that live in hollow Acacia trees: The ants & Acacia trees seem to share
a common enemy, the Termites, which makes them allies. Ants and termites are known to go to
territorial wars with eachother, right? Seems that the Acacia is protected by the ants against
both Herbivores AND Termites. But I imagine not all Acacia trees are blessed with ants.
Perhaps the ants in an Acacia tree may be defeated in a fight with Termites. Or maybe there
are just little or no ants to be found anywhere near a certain Acacia populations. These
Acacias will have to do without the ant's protection. It will still need a last line of defence
against pests like Termite infestations.
So I guess it would be simple enough to find out:
Do experiment 1 ,but instead of 20 ants, use 20 termites.
Perhaps, keeping Termites would require different nutrient-gels.
Maybe termite-farms are for sale too. Otherwise it should be possible
to find some kind of cellulose based transparent gel, to simulate wood, their natural food.
Unfortunately, living in North-Western Europe, Termites are
a little hard to come by.
Any Nexus member that lives in/near Termite territory willing to buy 2 ant-farms, fetch 20 termites
& give this Termite-DMT experiment a try, let me know.
Acacias make loads of DMT just so they can convert it to indole-3-acetic acid in
times of need/oppertunity for growth(during the vurnerable seedling stage, during the onset of it's ideal season..etc)
Perhaps Acacias convert excess indole-3-acetic acid into DMT, to convert back into indole-3-acetic acid
when the plant needs to/has oppertunity to grow. In this case DMT could be a growth-hormone reserve as it were.
And on the note of effecting the consciousness of insects with DMT and friends...
I've pondered this before and I guess a bunch of simple experiments wouldn't be that difficult.
I believe these particulair ant farms are easy to find & cheap so you could easily
do alot of experimenting with them. Perhaps for other insects too.
Which leads me into contemplation....again
I for one wouldn't be surprised if Termites would quickly die or become unfertile in
a DMT laden antfarm, given the fact that they love munching wood, seem to thrive in
every location where Acacias naturally grow(Australia, Africa, Central America),
they're likely to be an old natural enemy of many Acacia species. So DMT may still have a roll as an insecticide.
Regarding the ants that live in hollow Acacia trees: The ants & Acacia trees seem to share
a common enemy, the Termites, which makes them allies. Ants and termites are known to go to
territorial wars with eachother, right? Seems that the Acacia is protected by the ants against
both Herbivores AND Termites. But I imagine not all Acacia trees are blessed with ants.
Perhaps the ants in an Acacia tree may be defeated in a fight with Termites. Or maybe there
are just little or no ants to be found anywhere near a certain Acacia populations. These
Acacias will have to do without the ant's protection. It will still need a last line of defence
against pests like Termite infestations.
So I guess it would be simple enough to find out:
Do experiment 1 ,but instead of 20 ants, use 20 termites.
Perhaps, keeping Termites would require different nutrient-gels.
Maybe termite-farms are for sale too. Otherwise it should be possible
to find some kind of cellulose based transparent gel, to simulate wood, their natural food.
Unfortunately, living in North-Western Europe, Termites are
a little hard to come by.
Any Nexus member that lives in/near Termite territory willing to buy 2 ant-farms, fetch 20 termites
& give this Termite-DMT experiment a try, let me know.
Parshvik Chintan
Esteemed member
did you read the example about the bug being completely controlled by the fungus?Ambivalent said:
right?!?Ambivalent said:
and they are the only site i have found talking about it.
i am sure its out there somewhere (after all, they found it), but all my attempts have been fruitless so far..
Infundubulum wrote:
iracema wrote:
)
also, there is a fair amount of anecdotal info indicating higher tryptamine levels when plants are stressed by drought..whether that's 'death' or 'stress reduction' or something to aid in water retention is the question..
SKA wrote:
trees with or without ants can be equally high in DMT (from observation) ..the differences may lie in the other alkaloids present..
from all observations in the wild, ants thrive in DMT-saturated acacias, and the tree is not harmed..
these ants do not wander about the branches like the A. conigera ants..they just do their thing inside the tree..
still reading Albert K. Lloyd's post..
..at the end of the day, i generally feel (without proof of any kind) that DMT , as well as having numerous physiological functions in animals and plants, functions as an Exo-pheromone in the larger system..[pheremone being 'A chemical secreted by an animal, especially an insect, that influences the behavior or development of others of the same species', exo= between different species] ..more hormone than neurotransmitter..
why wouldn't the system (nature) have common languages ('machine-code')
..keeping the system coherent (rather than any individual species aims) could be an uber-function of DMT..
but hey, a lot of experiments to do yet..
..agreed, absolutely..
iracema wrote:
..sure, people choose not to listen the what the plants say (at their peril!
) also, there is a fair amount of anecdotal info indicating higher tryptamine levels when plants are stressed by drought..whether that's 'death' or 'stress reduction' or something to aid in water retention is the question..
SKA wrote:
..the ants i refer to were not what would be normally called 'termites'..they were very small and black..
trees with or without ants can be equally high in DMT (from observation) ..the differences may lie in the other alkaloids present..
from all observations in the wild, ants thrive in DMT-saturated acacias, and the tree is not harmed..
these ants do not wander about the branches like the A. conigera ants..they just do their thing inside the tree..
still reading Albert K. Lloyd's post..
..at the end of the day, i generally feel (without proof of any kind) that DMT , as well as having numerous physiological functions in animals and plants, functions as an Exo-pheromone in the larger system..[pheremone being 'A chemical secreted by an animal, especially an insect, that influences the behavior or development of others of the same species', exo= between different species] ..more hormone than neurotransmitter..
why wouldn't the system (nature) have common languages ('machine-code')
..keeping the system coherent (rather than any individual species aims) could be an uber-function of DMT..
but hey, a lot of experiments to do yet..
..i posted the following, which may be relevant, in the acacia thread:
Parshvik Chintan said:
.. http://physics.knoji.com/the-piezoelectric-effect-and-the-pineal-gland-in-the-human-brain/
..speculation, but interesting..
.
Parshvik Chintan
Esteemed member
and here i thought i was being funny...nen888 said:
interesting indeed...
