What If It's All BS?

[edge2054]

He took a high dose of oral DMT less than a month ago and experienced a lot of dualism from the sounds of it.

Warrior I wanted to leave you with a few quotes about fear that have really resonated with me over the years.

"I learned that courage was not the absence of fear, but the triumph over it. The brave man is not he who does not feel afraid, but he who conquers that fear." ~Nelson Mandela

“Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the assessment that something else is more important than fear.” ~ Franklin D. Roosevelt

"Courage is resistance to fear, mastery of fear, not absence of fear." ~Mark Twain

 

[hardboiled]

˝Life is the greatest mind***k we could get our self in to...˝

In my own experiences i came to realize. As ˝IT˝ i have totally different understanding (if i can even call it that since it's not understanding but total knowing of everything in one instant and point) what all this is and how and why... ad infinitum. In this game anything goes since its just a part of what you are.
As soon as i get back from that ˝whatever˝ the human/ego part of me just cant comprehend or except this since it's impossible to and trying to force it can lead to crazy episodes (had my share)that can also turn in some cases in to permanent state. But then again who is sane around here:?:

For me one thing stands out for sure. While being the One i hate it its boring and depressing to me and i am fascinated with being finite little human nobody who knows nothing. While human i am fascinated of that infinite state of being the alpha & omega and i hate being this little retarded fleshy bipedal.
If anything of this is true then i think i can say for myself that i then understand what life is...an escape from being bored and depressed by knowing everything and not being able to experience anything new in that state and to share it with something outside of your self.

We humans have a long road ahead to even begin scratching the surface of what we and all of this really is. Or do we???:?:

 

[a1pha]

Joebono should be interviewed for The Nexian for a follow up.

I agree.

Same here.

Too often his grounded perspective is lacking in the psychedelic world.
I am curious to hear an update from him.

 

[Global]

If it's all BS, then it's the most impressive BS I've ever seen, and even if you decide to call it all BS, it still leaves countless things unexplained. All you've done is thrown your hands up in the air.

 

[imPsimon]

I was reading up on the saga of Joebono (some older members will remember him), and it got me thinking: what if DMT, psychedelics, everything is all BS? Maybe they're just molecules that happen to fit into our brains in such a way as to stimulate the 'profundity' switch in our brains, and we're all just buying into what are essentially psychotic visions.

Does it matter?

Blessings
~ND

I think it's a bit ignorant to call it "BS" and "just molecules".
You are molecules!
Your body is 10s of trillions of cells and thousand trillions of trillions of molecules all interacting as one...that's not BS.
...that's AMAZING!
These molecules we ingest can interact with this incredible piece of evolutionary machinery
to create all your wonderful and novel experiences...wow!

 

[Nathanial.Dread]

Joebono should be interviewed for The Nexian for a follow up.

I agree.

Same here.

Too often his grounded perspective is lacking in the psychedelic world.
I am curious to hear an update from him.

I agree with this, which is why I posted the original topic, actually.

The Nexus is generally pretty good about staying grounded, or at least, not letting things get dogmatic, but I meet a lot of people, esp. young people at festivals, who look on psychedelics (DMT especially) as some kind of 'magic.' People tell me things like "DMT is released when you die so you can get into Heaven,' or 'DMT is the molecule that makes you dream,' or any number of things that have never been empirically verified.

Often, saying "woah, woah, slow down, read some studies," goes either unheeded or makes one the target of ridicule.

Blessings
~ND

 

[Atlas_]

still too new to the molecule to speculate with any weight behind it. But I will say that it bothers me that exploring hyperspace isn't very "tackleable" sure you can blast off a million times and get a full range of different experiences. But besides some crazy stories, personal insight and slight memories of impossible shapes and colors, what really is it that anyone is bringing back, that they could share with others besides loose spiritual ideas. I like to think about these things critically because in the end it doesn't matter what any of you on the Nexus say, its what I experience and what I believe that matters to me. That goes for everyone. I have seen some weird shit on dmt. But so far i've only found to grow spiritually on LSD and Shrooms and 4aco-dmt. Not to say that I'm still not in for some DMT lessons down the road when I have mustered some courage. Obviously i'm split down the middle on the whole thing. Not convinced of either side, is DMT the nexus of spiritual growth/a real place/has an agenda to fix or "teach" people or if it isn't simply the reaction of large doses of a highly potent neurotransmitter giving our brains sort of a giant "surge" in thought. Whose to say all of these instances of "similar trips" between people are even that similar. Acid trips I have sound a lot like my freinds acid trips. We're all humans and wired somewhat similarly. To me it makes perfect sense that our brains weave the same "entities" out of the over amplified state our brains experience while under the influence of DMT.

You can pat me off to be an inexperienced psychonaut or spiritualist or whatever. But just like most of you i'm here to look for the truth subjectively. And so far this is how I feel about things. And so far I don't have enough evidence to go either way BS or Truth. I read every day on the nexus and so far it still seems feasible that we're just experiencing an overload and psychotic side effect is possible. Nothing has convinced me yet.

I'd still keep doing psychedelics even if all the mysterys of them were uncovered to be nonsense. A vacation is a vacation, and some times we all just need to GTFO of our surroundings and expand our perceptions. some times and psychedelics provide that in a carnival ride of doom or self perceived enlightenment.

 

[Vent01]

I was reading up on the saga of Joebono (some older members will remember him), and it got me thinking: what if DMT, psychedelics, everything is all BS? Maybe they're just molecules that happen to fit into our brains in such a way as to stimulate the 'profundity' switch in our brains, and we're all just buying into what are essentially psychotic visions.

Does it matter?

Blessings
~ND

Some of my psychedelic experiences were definitely bullshit. Others were profound, intimate truths about myself. It balances out. Now that I think about it, even dreams and real life contain bullshit. Do I need this bullshit? Maybe, but I'm not gonna go on a philosophical rant about it right now.

The question if these "psychotic visions" matter to me...

Well, I wouldn't have experienced the psychedelic trip if it didn't matter to me. That is for sure. So yes, it matters. But I'm not entirely sure if I know what I'm doing and why it matters. I can make shit up and pretend I know why it does but truthfully its too encompassing for me.

Why did certain events occur for me to witness? Was I drawn to it? Fate etc etc...
For real life that is.

I can always deny or choose not to integrate what I've experienced under the psychedelic altered state. But some of those things I felt and saw... they somehow changed me. Even the bullshit, somewhere behind the scenes.

It might be all bullshit, but it matters to me.

 

[Warrior]

He took a high dose of oral DMT less than a month ago and experienced a lot of dualism from the sounds of it.

Warrior I wanted to leave you with a few quotes about fear that have really resonated with me over the years.

"I learned that courage was not the absence of fear, but the triumph over it. The brave man is not he who does not feel afraid, but he who conquers that fear." ~Nelson Mandela

“Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the assessment that something else is more important than fear.” ~ Franklin D. Roosevelt

"Courage is resistance to fear, mastery of fear, not absence of fear." ~Mark Twain

Brilliant! :d

Never be afraid to feel fear.

 

[۩]

People tell me things like "DMT is released when you die so you can get into Heaven,' or 'DMT is the molecule that makes you dream,' or any number of things that have never been empirically verified.

This is one of my biggest pet peeves but at the same time I remind myself to acknowledge what exactly it is we are doing here. This stuff is ridiculously hard to talk about. Something of monumental proportions is happening right here right now and it's completely intertwined with every little mystery left in our puzzle box of paradoxes. Even those who haven't been there sometimes know there is something profound going on and know that somehow this weird flowery smelling alien candy fizz has something to do with it.

Start spreading new memes and be a pillar of information and encouragement to all those who speak in mirrors.

 

[--Shadow]

The experience is what is important, not what makes it happen.

+1 :thumb_up:

Beliefs are powerful. They can change your physiology. If someone who you tend to believe calls you up and says "You child has just been hit by a car". Even if it is not real, if you give any credence to that belief, your body will likely undertake a variety of physiological and psychological changes (heart rate increase, adrenalin, panic, anxiety, sweating etc)

Whether is BS or placedo, or real, it's doesn't really matter. If you believe it in your mind, it may as well be real for all intended purposes

 

[voyaj]

I recently had a fairly interesting experience with the spice.

I had had a few beers and grabbed my GVG - I thought about it three times and I was
100% positive the only thing that was in there was dream herb since I have been
smoking the herb solo every now and again to have lucid dreams.

I was just about to go to sleep, lol. Obviously, it was an accidental dose.

It was very interesting what happened after I ripped a huge puff. With spice,
of course you hold it in - with a complete intention of letting go and to
see what happens next. I didn't hold it in but it was still a huge toke.

3 seconds later I was in a sort of panic, "what is going on?!" I could hear that
plastic wrapper sound over my mind. My eyes were still open but I was entirely confused.
It felt like my mind was wrapping on to actual reality; holding it into place.

I'm no stranger to even extremely small doses of spice and usually I might see
LSD-esque effects, walls breathing etc. This was a lot of body load but almost no
visual distortion as it felt like my mind used all of it's will-power to keep itself
grounded. Even then I could not figure out - "Oh, that's DMT!" I was just totally confused.

I'm sure if I had smoked that amount with the intention of being open to
that experience, whatever it may be, I would have found myself in that realm.
It seemed to me that unless you accidentally smoke an exuberant amount that your mind plays
the scenario out in an emergency mode that is not very psychedelic at all.

It almost proved to me that you have to be ready for spice or it just won't work; You can't just
throw a ring onto a girl and exclaim that you're married. That's BS.

 

[--Shadow]

voyaj, I've had the same for my last 2 experiences. Absolutely no kaleidoscope geometric patterns happening, but still getting the trippy/swirl texture to everything. These are definitely more body feeling, than mind.

But, I believe this is due to my last extraction using xylene, and pretty sure there was more NMT and DMT-oxide than DMT in there.

 

[hug46]

I meet a lot of people, esp. young people at festivals, who look on psychedelics (DMT especially) as some kind of 'magic.' People tell me things like "DMT is released when you die so you can get into Heaven,' or 'DMT is the molecule that makes you dream,' or any number of things that have never been empirically verified.
~ND

I don"t have a problem with young people discussing potential bullshit about DMT. I think that it is similar to believing in Santa Claus and fairy tales when you are 4 or 5 years old. I wouldn"t stick a peer reviewed paper on the existence os Santa Claus under my kid"s nose every Xmas. The younger years are the last stage in life where we should be allowed to indulge in flights of fancy and a lack of critical thinking, before having to begin to grow up.

With such a difficult experience to quantify there will always be a certain amount of BS flying about. There are atleast 2 examples in the list below below that i still believed up until i wrote this post and i am still confused over what i believe or do not believe about DMT.

Examples of old wives' tales include:

Masturbation will make you blind and have hairy palms.
Ice cream leads to nightmares.
Toes pointed up signify low blood sugar.
Cracking knuckles gives arthritis.
Don't go outside with wet hair or you will catch a cold.
High heart rates lead to female fetuses.
Don't swallow gum or it will stay in your stomach for seven years.
Don't make silly faces or it will make the silly face permanent.
Chocolate leads to acne. [4]
Shaving makes the hair grow back thicker.
Eating crusts (of a sandwich) makes your hair go curly/you grow hair on your chest
The appearance of white spots on the fingernails is due to lying/not eating enough green vegetables/calcium.

 

[nen888]

..in terms of interpretation or meaning,

i think DMT is, like life....

what you make it
.

 

[Enoon]

I never really understood these debates on "what if it's all bs". What does that mean - BS as opposed to...? My experiences don't correspond to me journeying to a different universe where I meet alien species like in a sci-fi story. They are experiences of an entirely different nature. These experiences have helped me grow, have helped me marvel at the universe, perception and consciousness, have helped me feel more connected to the cosm. That isn't BS. No matter if the experiences are equivalent to dreams with respect to their ontology or if their nature is other.

Even if all our theories about DMT are wrong, that does not retract from the puzzle it presents for us. Sometimes understanding something isn't as beneficial as trying to understand it, nor is the solution all that grand. It's the marveling, the feeling of mystery and the whole load of benefits we get from psychedelics that makes them worthwhile, no?

I simply don't see why, when we have an experience of this kind, we have to ask ourselves: was it true or was it false? That's like asking: Was this day true or false? Was my vacation true or false? The question seems nonsensical to me.

 

[obliguhl]

What if ANYTHING ?

 

[DreaMTripper]

If its just a coincidence then so be it but how lucky are we to stumble across it??! Which leads to it being something not BS in my opinion.
Can something profound ever be BS? Seems like a contradiction in terms to me..
I dont know what or why but it certainly is interesting to think about!
Of course its understandable that these visions could be thought about and thought about and dissected and analysed and the conclusion arrived at that it just doesnt make sense but anyone who has witnessed such visions and phenomena knows that what is 'in' 'there' cant be brought back in full to be analysed anyway..so maybe "it doesnt make sense" is the only conclusion we can come to! Although many are left with a little gem of knowledge about themselves or their lives or a realisation is made about something. Having said that there is a certain recreational value too.

The plants evolved alongside us in nature, some plants conveniently have chemicals in them that fit into our synapses, a neuro-transmitter, a chemical messenger. Plants use chemicals to communicate is it that big a leap to think that plants maybe using psychedelic alkaloids to communicate with us?
Many life saving drugs have been either synthesised from chemicals found in plants or have been refined from such, plants feed us, shelter us provide our food with food, our foods food with food. Clean our water and our air I dont think to too far of a stretch to say they might look after us psychologicaly too there is clearly a connection.

 

[112233]

What if ANYTHING ?

 

[PowerfulMedicine]

Plants use chemicals to communicate is it that big a leap to think that plants maybe using psychedelic alkaloids to communicate with us?

From a purely scientific standpoint, this is a giant leap. If you anthropomorphize the actions of plants, then it does seem that they do things with the intention of communicating with other organisms. They produce flowers with colors, scents, and rewards that attract pollinators. They produce fruits that are nutritious and attractive to many creatures. It almost seems like they are conscious in these respects.

But if you examine these actions of plants with an understanding of evolution, natural selection, and genetics then it becomes somewhat easy to explain without the inclusion any supernatural or spiritual ideas. These processes are all passive and do not occur with any purpose in mind (unless they are being directly manipulated by a conscious mind like humans).

There is no scientific evidence to suggest that plants are trying to communicate with anything. Communication requires some minimum level of consciousness that plants do not have in any demonstrable capacity.

Plants do the things they do because these actions and functions have been beneficial to their survival over the millions of years in which they evolved. It's not like one day the ancestral lineage of Chacruna decided to produce DMT in order to communicate to any willing listeners. These plants just produce DMT because for some reason or another they acquired a mutation that caused them to produce DMT as a metabolic byproduct and this mutation happened to be beneficial to their survival for some reason so it was subsequently passed on to the next generations.

And the reason that plants produce compounds that resemble our endogenous neurotransmitters is because the basic enzymatic machinery and precursor chemicals used by plants and humans are the same. This is true of all living creatures because we all share a common ancestor (as far as science can tell and barring any outside influence).

Amino acids are the buildings blocks for the proteins in all living things. Plants naturally use tryptophan (among many other amino acids) to build their biomass and enzymes just like we do. From there all it takes to make DMT is a little decarboxylation and methylation. These are pretty simple reactions that can be undertaken by a variety of enzymes found in most if not all groups of organisms.

So from a purely scientific viewpoint, these are pretty good reasons for why someone might think that all the spiritual, supernatural discussions about DMT would be BS. And these are just a few reasons. The main thing is that it is currently impossible to even find any reasonable evidence to support any spiritual claims. Until there is any strong evidence, there will always be the possibility that DMT is just a molecule that produces psychotic visions and thought patterns and any insights revealed by it are due to deep introspection.