What If It's All BS?

[Synkromystic]

There's only one objective thing you can say for absolute certain- that there is at the very least a sort of illusion of experience.

well put.

We always end up here. I bet if I opened up a thread about cookie recipes by page 5 people would be saying 'but how can you prove stuff is really stuff!?'.

I would really hope that a cookie recipe thread here would not get 5 pages of responses:lol:

Another much simpler flow of discussion would be:
But how can you say for sure?
Well, because I have a gun, and shut up.

I see you have a very deep and thorough understanding of how our world works

 

[112233]

I would really hope that a cookie recipe thread here would not get 5 pages of responses:lol:

Unless the cookie recipe was the DMT-equivalent of a pot cookie: one tasty cookie is like a cup of really potent aya . . . yeah . . . that's the world I pray for. Or is it Prey?

 

[cyb]

I would really hope that a cookie recipe thread here would not get 5 pages of responses:lol:

But 9 pages on BS is just fine?

Stick around, you ain't seen nuthin' yet.

 

[PowerfulMedicine]

Ok, I will fall for your 'bait' yet again :roll:

You know what. I'm going to apologize. I took your willingness to respond to mean that you really wanted to have an open and in depth discussion. In my opinion, discussion isn't really discussion unless you are pushing others and yourself to defend and question their positions. Knowledge only advances when there is a force behind it.

But I can understand that some people don't respond well to being pushed in such ways or perhaps they just don't want to be pushed. Sometimes people don't know they want to be pushed, and this is what I interpreted in your responses. I'm sorry that I was wrong and I'm sorry to have caused you any stress.

To be fair, you may have been repeating yourself a lot, but so was I. Many times when I pointed out logical inconsistencies in your argument, you responded by restating your argument. So I then reshuffled my previous critiques. In my opinion, your argument did not expand much as the discussion went on and you didn't take many offensive stances.

My final critique will be that a belief system that relies so heavily on paradox is a lazy system. Some things must be a paradox as far as we know, but not all things. And then again, paradox may be something that only exists in the mind. That's all I have to say about this.

 

[PowerfulMedicine]

To bring this thread back to the topic at hand, I will bring up something that hasn't quite been discussed yet. There has been debate about whether or not plants can communicate consciously with humans, perhaps through consumption of DMT. But there are other possible ways in which the visions and revelations of DMT could be more than just the result of haywire neurophysiology (more than BS).

It might be that DMT and other hallucinogens increase innate abilities of the mind. It might awaken forms of sensory perception that we can't normally access or are that we only have limited access to in sober states. In this scenario, the advanced consciousness of plants is unnecessary so this issue can be ignored for the sake of this discussion.

I feel that it is much easier to come up with scientific evidence supporting this scenario than the scenario that plants are consciously communicating through DMT. These abilities do not even have to be “psychic” in nature. One ability that psychedelics increase is the ability to recognize patterns. It's arguable that psychedelics actually increase this ability so much that it causes false positives which explain the often delusional quality of so called “revelations”.

This increased pattern recognition might also allow us to perceive phenomena that are so subtle that they escape our senses under normal circumstances. Perhaps there are instances where psychedelics allow us to sense electromagnetic fields or gravity anomalies. I doubt we would be able to actually see these things, but perhaps we could see or feel the results of these forces.

There is also evidence that the subconscious stores large amount of information that never make it to the conscious mind. Psychedelics surely allow some increased level of access to the subconscious. And with this added information, the mind could easily come up with information that seems to come from an external source since we are normally so removed from the subconscious mind. The seemingly external origin is then just an illusion.

 

[--Shadow]

Even thinking that plants are communicating to us through DMT, is no different to me pissing on the ground and a plant soaking it up (especially if my pee contains DMT), it's not me sending some conscious communication for the plant to experience - though I'm sure it would thank me if it could

 

[FloorFan]

Another much simpler flow of discussion would be:

But how can you say for sure?
Well, because I have a gun, and shut up.

^^^I find this very astute.


As I see it, it could also be said as:

but how can you say for sure?
Well, I have a gun, but I'm too advanced and kind to do anything "wrong" to another person, as my ego likes me to think. So, I'll leave the gun here and let you point it at yourself, because I'd rather attack by saying your ego would like that. Aren't I so nice? I'll ask you to shut up, but I'll also ask you to say one more thing as it'll passive-aggressively show I'm superior to you. I want everyone to think I'm the forum victim and not the aggressor. Viva la ego!

OR...

It's gettin all ad hominem up in here! (Attacking the discusser and not the subject of discussion to reduce discusser's credibility.)

 

[Infectedstyle]

One word.. Hormones.

As a male.. Try this. Eat mushrooms, go into a lingerie shop.

All the shame and emotions that overcome you in that store. Those are all caused by female hormones.

Atleast, I think so.

This all works with wormholes. In the heart of the body is a micro-blackhole that is essentially linked to another universe. Energy travels (to us) instantaneously and the conscious mind processes this energy and thinks they are generated by it's own body. Which it is not. I have been thaught about this micro-blackhole by a biologist who understood Field theories. Essentially the geometry and shape of the heart's magnetic field produces a vortex which theoretically (Einstein-rosen bridge) produces a micro-blackhole.

DMT has it's own field as well. Rupert Sheldrake has a theory of Morphogenetic field which actually does a good job at explaining how substances like DMT and Psilocybin actually gather and transmit information. And DMT (as a hormone) carrying information put forth by plants is akin to an email (dmt) being sent by the interaction of a human and a computer.

:shock:

Have you guys even tried DMT?

 

[۩]

Have you guys even tried DMT?

I've been meaning to.

 

[a1pha]

This all works with wormholes. In the heart of the body is a micro-blackhole that is essentially linked to another universe. Energy travels (to us) instantaneously and the conscious mind processes this energy and thinks they are generated by it's own body. Which it is not. I have been thaught about this micro-blackhole by a biologist who understood Field theories. Essentially the geometry and shape of the heart's magnetic field produces a vortex which theoretically (Einstein-rosen bridge) produces a micro-blackhole.

Infectedstyle, I think it's about time you cease and desist with these wild claims of yours without providing a single reliable source. Your verbal BS is beginning to clog the pipes of this thread and violates one of our most important rules:

Quality of information and discussion

If you post something as a fact, you have to be able to provide a reliable source for your argument. This depends contextually, but a peer-reviewed publication is an example of what could be a good source, and a random unknown website or what “someone said” could be an example of an unreliable source. If you state something as your opinion then please support that opinion with good reasoning. If you cannot do that then don't state your opinion at all since it's useless for others.

Consider this your last warning before receiving a nice vacation from the DMT-Nexus.

a1pha

 

[Infectedstyle]

Infectedstyle, I think it's about time you cease and desist with these wild claims of yours without providing a single reliable source. Your verbal BS is beginning to clog the pipes of this thread and violates one of our most important rules:

Quality of information and discussion

If you post something as a fact, you have to be able to provide a reliable source for your argument. This depends contextually, but a peer-reviewed publication is an example of what could be a good source, and a random unknown website or what “someone said” could be an example of an unreliable source. If you state something as your opinion then please support that opinion with good reasoning. If you cannot do that then don't state your opinion at all since it's useless for others.

Consider this your last warning before receiving a nice vacation from the DMT-Nexus.

a1pha

But.. I am the reliable source!

I forgot about peer-review. Darn it. It is just so hard to find peers all high in this boson-dimension. :lol:

Dont worry.. I'll shut up. I really don't feel like my comments where that uncalled for at this point in time. But you may have a different perspective about that and I fully respect that.

 

[SpartanII]

The first truth about awareness is that the world out there is not really as we think it is. We think it is a world of objects and it's not.

You say you agree with me because everything could be reduced to being a field of energy. But you are merely intuiting a truth. To reason it out is not to verify it. I am not interested in your agreement or disagreement, but in your attempt to comprehend what is involved in this truth. You cannot witness fields of energy; not as an average man, that is. Now, if you were able to see them, you would be a seer, in which case you would be explaining the truths about awareness.

Conclusions arrived at through reasoning have very little or no influence in altering the course of our lives. Hence, the countless examples of people who have the clearest convictions and yet act diametrically against them time and time again; and have as the only explanation for their behavior the idea that to err is human.
The first truth is that the world is as it looks and yet it isn't. It's not as solid and real as our perception has been led to believe, but it isn't a mirage either. The world is not an illusion, as it has been said to be; it's real on the one hand, and unreal on the other. Pay close attention to this, for it must be understood, not just accepted. We perceive. This is a hard fact. But what we perceive is not a fact of the same kind, because we learn what to perceive.

Something out there is affecting our senses. This is the part that is real. The unreal part is what our senses tell us is there. Take a mountain, for instance. Our senses tell us that it is an object. It has size, color, form. We even have categories of mountains, and they are downright accurate. Nothing wrong with that; the flaw is simply that it has never occurred to us that our senses play only a superficial role. Our senses perceive the way they do because a specific feature of our awareness forces them to do so.

I've used the term "the world" to mean everything that surrounds us. I have a better term, of course, but it would be quite incomprehensible to you. Seers say that we think there is a world of objects out there only because of our awareness. But what's really out there are the Indescribable Force 's emanations, fluid, forever in motion, and yet unchanged, eternal.

-Don Juan to Carlos Castaneda in The Fire From Within:thumb_up:

 

[PowerfulMedicine]

^But science has shown that matter is just condensed energy. Have you ever heard of mass-energy equivalence, DeBroglie wavelength, and wave-particle duality. Science has come to the same realizations as Don Juan. The reason that we perceive matter as objects is because the wave aspect of matter is so minute that we can't perceive it.

Don Juan may know these things from experience, but reason has given us knowledge of the mechanics of energy that could never be understood solely through experience. Don Juan can only say that he "knows" that the world is energy but he can't harness that energy in a way that is nearly as tangible as science, so his knowledge is arguably less than that of science.

If I recall correctly from the book "The Teachings of Don Juan", Don Juan basically believed that knowledge is proportional to power. And power is the ability to use your knowledge to perform tasks. Correct me if I'm wrong. Science has accomplished far more than any "man of knowledge", so by that logic the knowledge of science is superior.

I would argue that trying to comprehend the energetic nature of the universe through experience is far from verifying this idea. The senses can be fooled. The real way to verify this is experimentally, the way that science works. Plus, we witness fields of energy all the time. Heat, light, electricity, gravity. These are all "fields of energy". We may not always see them with our eyes, but we witness them and their results at all times.

 

[Global]

I'd like to point out that just because something seems logical, reasonable, and rational does not necessarily make it true. Part of the inherent problem in trying to apply logic to hyperspace is that logic is held exclusively within the realm of language whereas hyperspace tends to transcend language. I'm not denouncing critical thinking, but what you find to be rational are things you've typically been long conditioned to process as such, which can be more a reflection on society than reality. As much as science can tell us, there's a lot it cannot. Because these experiences are so ephemeral and non-consensual (the same ones can't be shared and examined by multiple people, and repeating the same experience is not reliable), it's no surprise that you won't find any studies that can attempt to verify some of these spiritual notions, but it doesn't deny their validity de facto either.

 

[SpartanII]

^But science has shown that matter is just condensed energy. Have you ever heard of mass-energy equivalence, DeBroglie wavelength, and wave-particle duality. Science has come to the same realizations as Don Juan. The reason that we perceive matter as objects is because the wave aspect of matter is so minute that we can't perceive it.

Don Juan may know these things from experience, but reason has given us knowledge of the mechanics of energy that could never be understood solely through experience. Don Juan can only say that he "knows" that the world is energy but he can't harness that energy in a way that is nearly as tangible as science, so his knowledge is arguably less than that of science.

If I recall correctly from the book "The Teachings of Don Juan", Don Juan basically believed that knowledge is proportional to power. And power is the ability to use your knowledge to perform tasks. Correct me if I'm wrong. Science has accomplished far more than any "man of knowledge", so by that logic the knowledge of science is superior.

I would argue that trying to comprehend the energetic nature of the universe through experience is far from verifying this idea. The senses can be fooled. The real way to verify this is experimentally, the way that science works. Plus, we witness fields of energy all the time. Heat, light, electricity, gravity. These are all "fields of energy". We may not always see them with our eyes, but we witness them and their results at all times.

I don't wish to engage in debate. What is quoted is not intended as a personal opinion, fact or rule. It is not an attempt to change anyone's point of view or belief system. It is simply from a wise story...take from it what you will.

We are dealing with that immensity out there. To turn that magnificence out there into reasonableness doesn't do anything for you. Here, surrounding us, is eternity itself. To engage in reducing it to a manageable nonsense is petty and outright disastrous.

Whenever the internal dialogue stops, the world collapses and extraordinary facets of ourselves surface, as though they had been kept heavily guarded by our words. You are like you are, because you tell yourself that you are that way. You are too heavy and self-important. Let go!

Warriors keep controlled and aloof. They don't believe anything, but still act efficiently. We are luminous beings. We are perceivers. We are an awareness; we are not objects; we have no solidity. We are boundless. The world of objects and solidity is a way of making our passage on earth convenient. It is only a description that was created to help us. We, or rather our reason , forget that the description is only a description and thus we entrap the totality of ourselves in a vicious circle from which we rarely emerge in our lifetime.

We are perceivers. The world that we perceive, though, was created by a description that was told to us since the moment we were born.

We, the luminous beings, are born with two rings of power, but we use only one to create the world. That ring, which is hooked very soon after we are born, is reason , and its companion is talking. Between the two they concoct and maintain the world. So, in essence, the world that your reason wants to sustain is the world created by a description and its dogmatic and inviolable rules, which the reason learns to accept and defend.

The secret of the luminous beings is that they have another ring of power which is never used, the will . The trick of the sorcerer is the same trick of the average man. Both have a description; one, the average man, upholds it with his reason ; the other, the sorcerer, upholds it with his will . Both descriptions have their rules and the rules are perceivable, but the advantage of the sorcerer is that will is more engulfing than reason.

You must learn to let yourself perceive whether the description is upheld by your reason or by your will . That is the only way for you to use your daily world as a challenge and a vehicle to accumulate enough personal power in order to get to the totality of yourself.

-Don Juan to Castaneda in Tales of Power.

 

[some one]

I was reading up on the saga of Joebono (some older members will remember him), and it got me thinking: what if DMT, psychedelics, everything is all BS? Maybe they're just molecules that happen to fit into our brains in such a way as to stimulate the 'profundity' switch in our brains, and we're all just buying into what are essentially psychotic visions. Does it matter?

Blessings
~ND

Let me answer OP's original question with another question:

Is the DMT world any more bullshit than discussing whether it is real or not for 9 pages?

Like the old Zen masters say: "try not to think so much, preferably, try not to think at all... It is thought which lies at the root of suffering." What I'm saying is, whether real or not and how to measure that, maybe its only the experience itself that counts. If so, the best you can do is just chill out and enjoy the ride. The more you think about what it all could mean and how to interpret it, the further detached from it you become...

How can thinking cause suffering?

I had this funny insight during one of my Ayahuasca journeys.. You know how people talk about a new age being ahead of us, a transition into a higher consciousness? I felt such transitions only take place when the world gets bored of itself. "Hello? We're all living in perfect harmony with ourselves and nature now. Level complete, boring, next please!" Think of it.. Why did a perfect one celled organism world transition into a multicelled organism one? Science can't explain and there wasn't a real need for it.

Thinking complicates the simplistic beauty of life. The more we complicate it, the less bored we become, the further we distance ourselves from getting the next upgrade! Like a dog chasing its tail..

Thats what this discussion is: pointless.

However, As long as we are not bored and enjoying the experience, of life, this discussion, all is fine. No harm in that at all. Its what life is about, to experience. But thinking that thinking will take us somewhere is pure maya in my opinion. In the mean time..

Let this knowledge not stop us from continuing having some more fun by keeping on thinking!

Fuck boredom, leave that to our childrens children.. I have hope.

 

[○]

I was reading up on the saga of Joebono (some older members will remember him), and it got me thinking: what if DMT, psychedelics, everything is all BS? Maybe they're just molecules that happen to fit into our brains in such a way as to stimulate the 'profundity' switch in our brains, and we're all just buying into what are essentially psychotic visions. Does it matter?

Blessings
~ND

Let me answer OP's original question with another question:

Is the DMT world any more bullshit than discussing whether it is real or not for 9 pages?

Like the old Zen masters say: "try not to think so much, preferably, try not to think at all... It is thought which lies at the root of suffering." What I'm saying is, whether real or not and how to measure that, maybe its only the experience itself that counts. If so, the best you can do is just chill out and enjoy the ride. The more you think about what it all could mean and how to interpret it, the further detached from it you become...

How can thinking cause suffering?

I had this funny insight during one of my Ayahuasca journeys.. You know how people talk about a new age being ahead of us, a transition into a higher consciousness? I felt such transitions only take place when the world gets bored of itself. "Hello? We're all living in perfect harmony with ourselves and nature now. Level complete, boring, next please!" Think of it.. Why did a perfect one celled organism world transition into a multicelled organism one? Science can't explain and there wasn't a real need for it.

Thinking complicates the simplistic beauty of life. The more we complicate it, the less bored we become, the further we distance ourselves from getting the next upgrade! Like a dog chasing its tail..

Thats what this discussion is: pointless.

However, As long as we are not bored and enjoying the experience, of life, this discussion, all is fine. No harm in that at all. Its what life is about, to experience. But thinking that thinking will take us somewhere is pure maya in my opinion. In the mean time..

Let this knowledge not stop us from continuing having some more fun by keeping on thinking!

Fuck boredom, leave that to our childrens children.. I have hope.

This is a great post.

Cheers!

 

[jamie]

"This all works with wormholes. In the heart of the body is a micro-blackhole that is essentially linked to another universe. Energy travels (to us) instantaneously and the conscious mind processes this energy and thinks they are generated by it's own body. Which it is not. I have been thaught about this micro-blackhole by a biologist who understood Field theories. Essentially the geometry and shape of the heart's magnetic field produces a vortex which theoretically (Einstein-rosen bridge) produces a micro-blackhole."


I have had experiences that resonate with that somewhat..

 

[○]

Hyperspace is BS insofar as we take the everyday physical world to be BS.

These things I feel, just ARE, theres nothing else to say about it for me. These ineffable states facilitated by DMT really cant be molded into language, im sorry. These states, when your deep in, there's no denying whats happening, try denying anything in a peak state of DMT.

It's really easy to sit here, outside of hyperspace/the other side and ponder and wonder 'what if?'. That's how 'other side of the coin' hyperspace actually is.

It's all neither real nor non real, as i had read from one of the Upanishads, the phenomenal world, or any other state..is simply appearance, nothing more. I looked at reality and the DMT experience as that before i had read these words from the Upanishads. I was pretty blown away to be honest about alot of what the upanishads had to say regarding this transcendental realm long with describing humans, the world, phenomenal existence, etc.

This experience though, characteristics/labels simply just don't apply, or any intense psychedelic state, for that matter. Hyperspace is other-wordly divorced from everyday life, transcending yet it encompasses.

 

[PowerfulMedicine]

Why did a perfect one celled organism world transition into a multicelled organism one? Science can't explain and there wasn't a real need for it.

Due to the concept of natural selection, organisms will necessarily increase in complexity when increased complexity is beneficial to the survival and reproduction of the organism. This increase in complexity arises completely by chance due to mutation (and endosymbiosis) and only persists when it is beneficial. Otherwise, increased complexity would not have been passed down to subsequent generations.

The fact that one celled organisms evolved into multicellular ones shows that some subset of single celled organisms were not "perfect". Given the environment in which they lived, they became better suited to that environment by becoming multicellular.

Science can explain the general process by which this occurred. And it is anthropocentric to think that there would be some "need" for this to occur. Increased complexity was necessary due to the nature of biological systems, but to describe this in terms of a "need" implies conscious intent (at least in my mind).

Also, the world is still unicellular in terms of both quantity of individuals and biomass.

Thinking complicates the simplistic beauty of life. The more we complicate it, the less bored we become, the further we distance ourselves from getting the next upgrade!

Yeah, but thinking allows us to understand the complicated beauty of life. Life isn't simple and in my opinion you miss a lot of cool stuff if you treat life as being simple.

When you take life to be simple, you are also prone to being tricked. If you watch a magician and just believe that what he is doing is real without thinking about what is possible and impossible, then you will believe that he has performed magic. But I'm pretty sure that there are no quarters in my ear and that things don't just disappear and reappear in real life.

There is no way to be sure that the experiences brought about by DMT are more than just a trick. It might be more than a trick, but there is no aspect of it that can be totally trusted.