What is the ancient Soma or Haoma?

[Schahin92]

Hello dear community

I am Iranian and my favorite poet is the Sufi Hafez who is a famous poet in Iran and also outside of Iran. The German Goethe wrote an entire book about him.
He is an absolutely fantastic writer and talks about God as Love and Compassion, the meaning of our existence and so many more metaphysical or lets say things related to the soul.

He constantly mentions a bitter wine that drives him and his Sufi compatriots into extasy and when they take it they see the heavens and the angels come and talk to them and give them guidance.
Within his texts he talks about becoming intoxicated by the bitter wine of Jamshid (which shows you the entire creation) and how angels come and talk to him about the meaning of life and so many other things.

Its like the center of his writing, this bitter wine appears over and over again. In Iran they use Syrian Rue seeds and burn it to get rid off bad spirits traditionally. But its supposed that Soma or Haoma is made of Syrian Rue.
Does anybody here have more ideas about what it could be exactly and what experiences can one make with a pure Syrian Rue tea in itself? Is it psychedelic in some sort?

 

[Here&Now]

To my knowledge, no amount of syrian rue on its own can generate that type of experience. But it certainly can when used alongside DMT. Harmalas have interesting effects on their own, but I wouldn't think of them as being even close to as revelatory as tryptamines.

Considering we're talking about Sufism, I wonder if it's possible the substance in question is metaphorical for advanced spiritual practice. As I'm sure you know, Sufism is a very rich mystical tradition that has produced some of the most adept spiritual figures in history. They often speak of becoming "drunk" from experiencing the divinity of the state of fana (Sufi equivalent to samadhi). For those of us who love psychedelics, it can be easy to forget that external substances aren't actually a requirement to experience supremely elevated states.

 

[Schahin92]

To my knowledge, no amount of syrian rue on its own can generate that type of experience. But it certainly can when used alongside DMT. Harmalas have interesting effects on their own, but I wouldn't think of them as being even close to as revelatory as tryptamines.

Considering we're talking about Sufism, I wonder if it's possible the substance in question is metaphorical for advanced spiritual practice. As I'm sure you know, Sufism is a very rich mystical tradition that has produced some of the most adept spiritual figures in history. They often speak of becoming "drunk" from experiencing the divinity of the state of fana (Sufi equivalent to samadhi). For those of us who love psychedelics, it can be easy to forget that external substances aren't actually a requirement to experience supremely elevated states.

Yes but the constant mentioning of "the bitter wine" in the winehouse where they get intoxicated, doesnt seem like a metaphor to me.

He talks about the cupbearers that pour him the wine, the wine itself and about the Cup of Jamshid. I dont think that so many numerous mentionings of Cups, Cupbearers and Wine can be metaphorical, thats my opnion though.

Especially because he talks about the Master of the Tavern or the Master of Magic who are probably Zoroastrian magicians who since ancient time use the Haoma drink which is even written in their sacred texts as far as I know.

 

[Here&Now]

Yes but the constant mentioning of "the bitter wine" in the winehouse where they get intoxicated, doesnt seem like a metaphor to me.

He talks about the cupbearers that pour him the wine, the wine itself and about the Cup of Jamshid. I dont think that so many numerous mentionings of Cups, Cupbearers and Wine can be metaphorical, thats my opnion though.

Especially because he talks about the Master of the Tavern or the Elder of the Magi, who are probably Zoroastrian magicians who since ancient time use the Haoma drink which is even written in their sacred texts as far as I know.

You may be totally correct. While it's true that the esoteric sects of religions have always had to hide their actual teachings from the exoteric side using clever metaphors, it's also clearly true that special substances can produce extremely profound states of consciousness.

Considering their description, my bet would be on some kind of harmala+DMT brew. Or perhaps even an unknown psychedelic that's become lost to time.

 

[Schahin92]

You may be totally correct. While it's true that the esoteric sects of religions have always had to hide their actual teachings from the exoteric side using clever metaphors, it's also clearly true that special substances can produce extremely profound states of consciousness.

Considering their description, my bet would be on some kind of harmala+DMT brew. Or perhaps even an unknown psychedelic that's become lost to time.

Yes but what can that DMT brew be. That's the million dollar question.

How does a Syrian Rue brew on its own affect you?

 

[Varallo]

At the moment, there are no historical sources indicating that Syrian rue mixed with wine, or any other drinkable preparation involving Syrian rue, was used in ancient Persia. Because no such sources seem to exist, any claims or interpretations suggesting that this practice occurred are, by definition, speculative.

Without documented evidence from the historical record, it is not possible to assert that such a mixture was used in that context.

 

[Here&Now]

Yes but what can that DMT brew be. That's the million dollar question.

How does a Syrian Rue brew on its own affect you?

I've never used Syrian Rue in whole seed form, but I have used extracted harmine and THH. I think my highest dose using them solo was something like 300mg harmine and 100mg THH. The effect is very palpable, but I wouldn't call it psychedelic in the way we normally think of psychedelics. It also wasn't pleasant. It's like a strong bodily sensation, high excitability, and very minor visual effects. Nothing like the grandeur of Hafez's description.

 

[Schahin92]

At the moment, there are no historical sources indicating that Syrian rue mixed with wine, or any other drinkable preparation involving Syrian rue, was used in ancient Persia. Because no such sources seem to exist, any claims or interpretations suggesting that this practice occurred are, by definition, speculative.

Without documented evidence from the historical record, it is not possible to assert that such a mixture was used in that context.

No we've got something wrong here. He sayd the bitter wine. He doesnt mean the alcoholic beverage here, he means an Ayahuasca-like brew which intoxicated the "Lovers" and makes them see the "Beloved".

Its very clear through his texts that Hafez doesnt mean the alcoholic beverage. And yes the Ancient Persian/Iranian Zoroastrians did indeed use Haoma the Ayahuasca like Beverage, thats recorded history.

 

[Varallo]

No we've got something wrong here. He sayd the bitter wine. He doesnt mean the alcoholic beverage here, he means an Ayahuasca-like brew which intoxicated the "Lovers" and makes them see the "Beloved".

I read your post, the whole concept of wine and or bitter wine, in the writings of Hafez is pretty metaphorical and it’s imo tricky to interpret as an actual wine, in some instances it might, but from what I read it’s not quite as clear.

And yes the Ancient Persian/Iranian Zoroastrians did indeed use Haoma the Ayahuasca like Beverage, thats recorded history.

Can you quote your sources on this claim, as it would really help the discussion?

 

[blig-blug]

the Ancient Persian/Iranian Zoroastrians did indeed use Haoma

This is true and well documented, it was part of the Yasna ritual. The use of Haoma precedes Zoroastrianism and is found in the Avesta.

the Ayahuasca like Beverage

This is what is lacking in evidence. The identity of Haoma hasn't been established in a conclusive way. I favor the hypothesis presented in Haoma and Harmaline by Flattery and Schwartz that Haoma was Peganum harmala, but the evidence is not conclusive, and there is no consensus that it was the case. So one can't simply take references to drinking Haoma as references to drinking a Syrian rue tea, at minimum one should acknowledge it's a hypothesis.

As for the effects of Peganum harmala on its own: my girlfriend has experienced visionary states with internal hallucinations from high doses of harmala alkaloids extracted from Syrian rue. There are more reports of this type. It may depend on the person.

 

[Schahin92]

I read your post, the whole concept of wine and or bitter wine, in the writings of Hafez is pretty metaphorical and it’s imo tricky to interpret as an actual wine, in some instances it might, but from what I read it’s not quite as clear.


Can you quote your sources on this claim, as it would really help the discussion?

Well I am talking to AI about Hafez verses and for a few days have been reading quite alot of verses from him. And most of them contain the words wine, cupbearer, intoxication and consequently through the intoxication, divine extasy and out of body or out of world experiences, the coming and the conversation of angels and so on and so forth.

The Haoma use was ritual tradition among Pre-Islamic Zoroastrians in Iran until the 7th century and after that probably more in a secret way as Hafez calls the cupbearers the Old Zoroastrian Magicians from the temple. If you ask AI about it youll receive plenty of information about the use of Haoma in Iran

 

[blig-blug]

And most of them contain the words wine, cupbearer, intoxication and consequently through the intoxication, divine extasy and out of body or out of world experiences, the coming and the conversation of angels and so on and so forth

It does seem a reasonable hypothesis that this refers to Haoma, based on what's known about Haoma in Zoroastrianism. But talking about it being Syrian rue is chaining two hypotheses (that those texts refer to Haoma, and that Haoma refers to Syrian rue), so it's less likely to be true than any of those two hypotheses separately. It's an interesting hypothesis and I don't think it's too implausible, in fact it sounds quite reasonable to me. But it's worth keeping in mind that it may be incorrect, and so we are in the realm of speculation.

 

[Varallo]

Well I am talking to AI about Hafez verses and for a few days have been reading quite alot of verses from him. And most of them contain the words wine, cupbearer, intoxication and consequently through the intoxication, divine extasy and out of body or out of world experiences, the coming and the conversation of angels and so on and so forth.

The Haoma use was ritual tradition among Pre-Islamic Zoroastrians in Iran until the 7th century and after that probably more in a secret way as Hafez calls the cupbearers the Old Zoroastrian Magicians from the temple. If you ask AI about it youll receive plenty of information about the use of Haoma in Iran

AI is great for finding sources, but its never a source, please ask your AI to provide sources for everything and then READ those sources yourself to make up your mind.

This is true and well documented, it was part of the Yasna ritual. The use of Haoma precedes Zoroastrianism and is found in the Avesta.


This is what is lacking in evidence. The identity of Haoma hasn't been established in a conclusive way. I favor the hypothesis presented in Haoma and Harmaline by Flattery and Schwartz that Haoma was Peganum harmala, but the evidence is not conclusive, and there is no consensus that it was the case. So one can't simply take references to drinking Haoma as references to drinking a Syrian rue tea, at minimum one should acknowledge it's a hypothesis.

As for the effects of Peganum harmala on its own: my girlfriend has experienced visionary states with internal hallucinations from high doses of harmala alkaloids extracted from Syrian rue. There are more reports of this type. It may depend on the person.

So moving forward there’s nothing that says Rue was used in Haoma, and although it could be an candidate other plants could be candidates aswel.

 

[blig-blug]

So moving forward there’s nothing that says Rue was used in Haoma, and although it could be an candidate other plants could be candidates aswel.

There's nothing that says what plant Soma/Haoma was, indeed. Still, not all hypotheses are equally supported by the evidence. The first half of Haoma and Harmaline, a serious research work unlike a lot in this field, is quite convincing (I didn't read the second part about linguistic evidence because only someone specialized in linguistics could find it interesting, it's extremely dense). As long as it's not presented as an absolute fact, I think it's an idea worth considering. Speculation is not negative unless it's baseless and/or starts being treated as fact, and it can be the source of new ideas.

 

[Here&Now]

Perhaps I'm still just underestimating Syrian Rue too much, but I feel like these ancient mystics would have had their minds blown 10x harder if they knew about DMT. I guess we're very lucky to be aware of it in the modern day.

 

[blig-blug]

By the way, a relevant fact that I had forgotten and just remembered after taking a look at Haoma and Harmaline: by Zoroastrian times, instead of Haoma they used a mixture supposed to "represent" Haoma. The identity of said mixture is known: ephedra, pomegranate, and rue (Ruta graveolens, so true rue). In India something similar happened, and a different plant came to "represent" Haoma. In both cases they claimed that Haoma used to be true Haoma in the past, but they don't specify what true Haoma was, and they may not have known anymore. This makes the hypothesis that the wine being referenced by muslim writers was the original Haoma less likely. It may not have been Haoma (meaning the "representation") at all, as ephedra won't have any particularly psychedelic effect.

Perhaps I'm still just underestimating Syrian Rue too much, but I feel like these ancient mystics would have had their minds blown 10x harder if they knew about DMT. I guess we're very lucky in that sense.

@Here&Now you're lucky @northape is taking a break

 

[Here&Now]

@Here&Now you're lucky @northape is taking a break

lol is that because he's a big fan of harmalas and hates to see semi-negative talk about them?

I saw his thread where he's planning to be away for a bit. I'm sure he'll make his return. It's enjoyable to be able to discuss our unique hobby, and that can be difficult when you're among a bunch of normies out in the wild.

 

[blig-blug]

lol is that because he's a big fan of harmalas and hates to see semi-negative talk about them?

Just a joke, but he does like rue by itself a lot.

 

[Sakkadelic]

Considering we're talking about Sufism, I wonder if it's possible the substance in question is metaphorical for advanced spiritual practice. As I'm sure you know, Sufism is a very rich mystical tradition that has produced some of the most adept spiritual figures in history. They often speak of becoming "drunk" from experiencing the divinity of the state of fana (Sufi equivalent to samadhi). For those of us who love psychedelics, it can be easy to forget that external substances aren't actually a requirement to experience supremely elevated states.

Perhaps I'm still just underestimating Syrian Rue too much, but I feel like these ancient mystics would have had their minds blown 10x harder if they knew about DMT. I guess we're very lucky to be aware of it in the modern day.

It's also possible that whatever practice, technique, or substance they used was enhanced by rue, either by drinking it or inhaling its fumes.

 

[Here&Now]

It's also possible that whatever practice, technique, or substance they used was enhanced by rue, either by drinking it or inhaling its fumes.

Good point, that's a possibility.