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What is the best form of DMT to inject?
- Thread starter chiggels
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ColorfulColorado
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If I remember correctly, DMT Fumarate isn't very water soluble, not as much as the HCl salt anyway. I believe the HCl salt is the best form for injection, however I could be wrong, so please, do your research. DMT injection really serves no purpose, blast-off is said to be comparable to a vaporized dose, I suppose the only benefit is that you use a smaller dose, but who wants to blast off with a needle sticking out of their arm?
Be extremely careful should you decide to go this route, there is quite a bit of information on injection of DMT, here on Nexus, and also over on Erowid. Check TiHKAL as well, can't remember if Shulgin had an IV dose or not. Lastly, ALWAYS have a trip sitter present, someone who understands the power of the molecule, I'd imagine blast off via IV would look similar to an overdose of other drugs, I get a sneaking suspicion the physical body might have some reactions.
Best of luck in your journey!
Be extremely careful should you decide to go this route, there is quite a bit of information on injection of DMT, here on Nexus, and also over on Erowid. Check TiHKAL as well, can't remember if Shulgin had an IV dose or not. Lastly, ALWAYS have a trip sitter present, someone who understands the power of the molecule, I'd imagine blast off via IV would look similar to an overdose of other drugs, I get a sneaking suspicion the physical body might have some reactions.
Best of luck in your journey!
I don't think injecting ethanol is a very good idea :?
There are quite a few threads already, try searching the forum. Most people use DMT Fumarate, as that is what Dr. Strassman used in his study. It's the easiest to handle and store. DMT HCl is extremely hygroscopic, and is difficult to store because it just turns to goo from atmospheric moisture.
If you do pursue this ROA, PLEASE make sure you know what you are doing. Try to have another person do it for you, who is familiar with proper injection technique and who can take the syringe and put it somewhere safe right after administration, have sterile materials, clean product, etc.
I don't condone IV ROA because the quality of self-extracted product is questionable, and it can potentially lead to DMT use having the wrong impression on people.
In response to ColorfulColorado,
The benefit of IV ROA is the control you have over the dosage. Even with perfect vaporization technique, it is still uncertain you will get 100% of the dose absorbed into your bloodstream before you exhale. With IV or IM administration, you know exactly how much DMT is entering your body.
There are quite a few threads already, try searching the forum. Most people use DMT Fumarate, as that is what Dr. Strassman used in his study. It's the easiest to handle and store. DMT HCl is extremely hygroscopic, and is difficult to store because it just turns to goo from atmospheric moisture.
If you do pursue this ROA, PLEASE make sure you know what you are doing. Try to have another person do it for you, who is familiar with proper injection technique and who can take the syringe and put it somewhere safe right after administration, have sterile materials, clean product, etc.
I don't condone IV ROA because the quality of self-extracted product is questionable, and it can potentially lead to DMT use having the wrong impression on people.
In response to ColorfulColorado,
The benefit of IV ROA is the control you have over the dosage. Even with perfect vaporization technique, it is still uncertain you will get 100% of the dose absorbed into your bloodstream before you exhale. With IV or IM administration, you know exactly how much DMT is entering your body.
Mistletoe Minx
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In the pre-trials reported by Strassman in 'The Spirit Molecule', he reports that IV 60mg was close to an overdose.
He chose 40mg as his very strong dose in the subsequent studies which proved to be fairly alarming even for people who were practiced with psychedelics.
Apart from concerns that he was pushing people too far psychologically at 40mg, he also notes that DMT causes a physiological response. Heart rate increases significantly in the initial rush and peak. Therefore there is likely an increased risk of heart problems at high doses.
all the best.
He chose 40mg as his very strong dose in the subsequent studies which proved to be fairly alarming even for people who were practiced with psychedelics.
Apart from concerns that he was pushing people too far psychologically at 40mg, he also notes that DMT causes a physiological response. Heart rate increases significantly in the initial rush and peak. Therefore there is likely an increased risk of heart problems at high doses.
all the best.
arcologist
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Mistletoe Minx said:
I believe that the dosages were actually 0.4 mg/kg for the high dose in the study, and 0.6 mg/kg during the pre-trial. This corresponds to 30mg and 45mg for a 75kg person, respectively.
Mistletoe Minx
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my apologies. Foolish me.
arcologist is absolutely right, the doses were measured mg/kg. and the high dose was 0.6mg/kg.
Strassman reports that heart rate in one participant leapt from 65bpm to 140 bpm in moments after the heavy dose. I imagine thats a considerable strain.
Another side effect was nausea and vomitting at the high dose. Theres probably a potential for choking here.
arcologist is absolutely right, the doses were measured mg/kg. and the high dose was 0.6mg/kg.
Strassman reports that heart rate in one participant leapt from 65bpm to 140 bpm in moments after the heavy dose. I imagine thats a considerable strain.
Another side effect was nausea and vomitting at the high dose. Theres probably a potential for choking here.
ColorfulColorado
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sarek said:
I humbly stand corrected
thanks for the info sarek, should I ever desire to stick a needle in my arm to quite literally shoot off, I will remember fumarate 
Hmmm...I wonder if administration would be simplified by a jet injector. It would make it a lot harder to mess up your veins and it would eliminate the need for a sitter or a trained nurse. A jet injector isn't impossible to build either.
Nathanial.Dread
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Unless you have a lab and are synthesizing pharmaceutical grade DMT, injecting a molecule you extracted in your kitchen into your bloodstream is a terrible idea.
Here's a threat about it. Read through it. A lot of the more experienced posters have a lot to say on the matter.
If you are hell-bent on doing this (in the interests of harm reduction), make sure you really purify your spice. Multiple re-xs and make sure your reagents are as clean as humanely possible. DMT Fumarate is easier to handle, but from a pharmacological perspective, there shouldn't be much (if any) difference between DMT Fumarate and DMT HCl.
Have someone who knows what they're doing inject you. Don't try to do it yourself, even if you're comfortable self injecting, you are going to go from this universe to hyperspace incredibly fast. There are reports of people injecting and blasting off before they can get the needle out. With the loss of muscle tone that usually accompanies a DMT experience, you can imagine how well that went.
I strongly encourage you to seriously consider whether you want to do this.
Here's a threat about it. Read through it. A lot of the more experienced posters have a lot to say on the matter.
If you are hell-bent on doing this (in the interests of harm reduction), make sure you really purify your spice. Multiple re-xs and make sure your reagents are as clean as humanely possible. DMT Fumarate is easier to handle, but from a pharmacological perspective, there shouldn't be much (if any) difference between DMT Fumarate and DMT HCl.
Have someone who knows what they're doing inject you. Don't try to do it yourself, even if you're comfortable self injecting, you are going to go from this universe to hyperspace incredibly fast. There are reports of people injecting and blasting off before they can get the needle out. With the loss of muscle tone that usually accompanies a DMT experience, you can imagine how well that went.
I strongly encourage you to seriously consider whether you want to do this.
The Brain is aware of the dangers of injecting impure materials into the veins. He was intrested in doing some animal studies about long term usage, high doses, drug interactions, etc. Pinky suggested using rats:lol: and higher primates(chimps) for these tests. They both looked for a while and couldn't find too many animal studies for DMT.
They do understand the need for purity and the Brain is working on making some synthetic DMT, but they don't have too much in the way of funding. Is there any way to separate the DMT, NMT, and 5-Meo DMT, from natural sources, to yield just DMT?
They do understand the need for purity and the Brain is working on making some synthetic DMT, but they don't have too much in the way of funding. Is there any way to separate the DMT, NMT, and 5-Meo DMT, from natural sources, to yield just DMT?
Nathanial.Dread
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I sincerely hope you are a real researcher and not planning to regularly inject your pets with high doses of DMT just to see what happens, as that is incredibly cruel. There are very thorough guidelines surrounding ethical animal testings and I hope for their sake you are familiar with them. If you are a real researcher, you should find everything you need in the existing literature. I know I did.chiggels said:
If you want pure DMT and don't have synthetic capabilities or the funds to procure DMT from a supplier like SA (which makes me raise an eyebrow), I suggest you find a plant source that produces almost exclusively DMT and very little substituted DMT analogs. They're out there.
This whole thing seems very suspect to me :?:
Also I always treat my animals with the upmost care and respect. Regardless of their lack of intelligence they do still feel emotions. They can get sad and mad and happy just like we can. Chimps are so close to humans they are only about 2 million years of evolution away from us. Thats really not very far apart in evolutionary terms. I would never hurt them unnecessarily. I would only do potentially harmful experiments on the rats. What I am especially intrested in is the effect of DMT, and hallucinogens in general, on the primate's communication skills and interpersonal interactions with eath other and members of other species.
Mistletoe Minx
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Im no chemist but I would have thought you can isolate DMT from the spectrum of alkaloids in an extraction using some kind of chromatography.
nen888 isolated NMT using paper chromatography in a study reported here:
Isn't your boss aware of such methods? Doesn't your academic institution have a chemistry department to work with and ask?
Im really interested in your study. Whats the hypothesis being tested?
>> I would only do potentially harmful experiments on the rats.
rats are incapable of emotion are they?
nen888 isolated NMT using paper chromatography in a study reported here:
Isn't your boss aware of such methods? Doesn't your academic institution have a chemistry department to work with and ask?
Im really interested in your study. Whats the hypothesis being tested?
>> I would only do potentially harmful experiments on the rats.
rats are incapable of emotion are they?
First off Brain is an independent researcher(not official but its what he does so its the name he goes by). He should have thought of chromatography, thanks. Second, the Brain wants to see if their "language" becomes more ordered and complex. He also wants to see if they might increase in their sociability. Third, the Brain doesn't think rats feel emotion and even if they do they would be very rudimentary. People have been testing harmful substances on rats for a long time. A lot of LD50's are based on rats so cleary humanity isn't very concerned with their well being and, as long as the proper animal research guidlines are followed, neither is the Brain.
Mistletoe Minx said:
Having kept rats and loving them as any other pet for many years, I find this statement extremely callous. They are wonderful little companions, intelligent and affectionate with individual personalities.
How would you know? Have you spent a lot of time around them? Have you ever bonded with one? Have they informed you that they are actually tiny little furry androids that have no emotion? They obviously feel pain. Are you willing to cause intentional suffering upon an animal just to satisfy your curiosity?
Mistletoe Minx
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SpartanII
>>Having kept rats and loving them as any other pet for many years, I find this statement extremely callous.
That statement was me quoting chiggles. It wasn't my comment. Im not about to test anything on anything. Im not even a scientist!
>>They are wonderful little companions, intelligent and affectionate with individual personalities.
I think you have misunderstood me, mate. Im with you. I think rats feel pain, feel suffering, feel emotion. Not only that, being social animals Im fairly sure they have an empathetic response when witnessing other rats suffer. In fact I think its beyond question that they do.
There are very decent studies clearly showing that rats help other rats that are suffering. I don't think it is clear yet how far rats would go to help other rats, but my guess is that there will be a spectrum of individual difference within the rat population, just as there is in the human population, and that some rats would risk a hell of a lot.
I love the little vermin and Im delighted to meet someone else who feels the same about them.
>>Having kept rats and loving them as any other pet for many years, I find this statement extremely callous.
That statement was me quoting chiggles. It wasn't my comment. Im not about to test anything on anything. Im not even a scientist!
>>They are wonderful little companions, intelligent and affectionate with individual personalities.
I think you have misunderstood me, mate. Im with you. I think rats feel pain, feel suffering, feel emotion. Not only that, being social animals Im fairly sure they have an empathetic response when witnessing other rats suffer. In fact I think its beyond question that they do.
There are very decent studies clearly showing that rats help other rats that are suffering. I don't think it is clear yet how far rats would go to help other rats, but my guess is that there will be a spectrum of individual difference within the rat population, just as there is in the human population, and that some rats would risk a hell of a lot.
I love the little vermin and Im delighted to meet someone else who feels the same about them.
Mistletoe Minx
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>> Third, the Brain doesn't think rats feel emotion
On what basis does the Brain make this claim? It seems out of step with current thinking on the matter. Almost victorian, really.
>> and even if they do they would be very rudimentary.
How rudimentary does an emotion have to be to be worth ignoring? Is rudimentary pain less painful than sophisticated pain? How is that measured by the Brain? Is a human baby's emotion rudimentary?
>> People have been testing harmful substances on rats for a long time.
They have and quite possibly have been causing unmentionable suffering and unmentionable distress along the way. And all along this unethical practice has been justified by demeaning the emotions felt by 'the lower animals' as 'rudimentary'.
>> A lot of LD50's are based on rats so clearly humanity isn't very concerned with their well being and, as long as the proper animal research guidelines are followed, neither is the Brain.
The fact that humanity is not that concerned about the well being of rats does not mean that rats do not suffer. Tell the Brain that in spite of humanities general disregard of rats the philosophical community is fairly sure that pain is as excruciating in rats as it is in humans, the same for distress and any kind of suffering, really.
In order for research to follow proper ethical guidelines wouldn't the Brain be required to submit an application to an ethical committee? Has he done this? If not, he isn't following proper guidelines is he?
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