What is the message ?

[Hieronymous]

I haven't been getting a lot of feedback from my posts of late, perhaps it's because I openly challenged the rules of the forum and made a statement contradictory to said rules. To create contention was and is never my motivation, I just can't stand inequity in any form and I expressed that point in rather blunt terms contadictory to the forum rules. So I offer my sincere apologies for any discontent I created when I posted that content.

Sorry Art - it was nothing personal.

Maybe I'm just over thinking things and my recent posts have been closed ended leaving little room for discourse.

Anyway

What's the deeper meaning of DMT ?

The way I interpret it, we have this (relatively new found) molecule that seems to be almost ubiquitous to the point where it pervades the entire existence of life on this planet. It seems like it's been encoded into our DNA to find this molecule at this tumultuous point in human earth time. It seems like it was designed to be discovered by intelligent beings when their technology is at the level where it has to be to understand it. I know Ayahuasca was discovered a long time ago but knowledge of the molecule has been from a chemical perspective a relative newcomer.

It seems like the molecule has been encoded into the fundamental root of life on this planet well before humans existed. To me it seems like intelligent design, a plan to be revealed when the collective intelligence is primed and competent enough to comprehend the message.

From my perspective if intelligent life exists in the universe then given the big bang theory, that intelligent life could have happened millions of years ago, possibly even much longer ago. So things like genetic engineering/gene splicing could have been well within the reach of advanced lifeforms many eons ago. Could they have seeded life on this planet to receive a message through a chemical catalyst when the consciousness of that planet is ready to receive it ?

I've yet to meet anyone that's done Aya that doesn't come out of it with a deep respect for the life force of this planet, no proof of anything by anyones standards but it does display some anecdotal evidence of some chemical message that needs attention.

Given the context of my above statements does it seem to anyone else that this molecule is trying to tell us something ?

I've done done DMT somewhere between 400-500 times (I stopped counting around the 2 hundred mark) and all my earlier trips seemed to be priming me for something bigger, all my recent trips have given me an overwhelming sense that we are destroying the natural balance of life and if we keep heading down this path we will wipe out all life on this beautiful planet.

These days my trips are still mind blowingly awesome but I always get the feeling that this is going to end soon, my trips build to the point where I'm overwhelmed by a sense of urgency and my personal interpretation is that the urgency is associated with possibly that we are approaching the last chance our race has for survival.

I know the chemistry behind the experience and it can all be rationally explained in chemical terms but to me this molecule is telling us to change before it's too late.

All this is based on nothing more than the observation of the evolution of our species, something that must have played out thousands or maybe even millions of times in many other worlds.

If life evolves to a relatively predictable pattern and I could send a chemical message to the future, there'd be no decision, I'd have to send that message.

 

[Enoon]

Hieronymous, I'm not sure about the first part of your post, since I don't recall having read any contradictory posts from you, but I'm not following a lot of threads here, so...

As for the rest of your post - those are interesting speculations. Personally I see no reason for it to be as you speculate, however. Our consciousness is a mysterious thing and is somehow linked to certain chemical interactions, which in a reductionistic view might seem mechanical and simple but I see it as something wonderous. The interaction of certain energy patterns through time and space creates consciousness - if this in itself is not awe-inspiring, I don't know what is.

DMT is I guess a special energy pattern that can influence this consciousness that has evolved here on this planet.

I have never felt that there was a particular message in DMT, but that it often made me more aware of what IS. This would also explain your sense of destroying the planet - it is in effect so. For me, DMT hasn't shown me this, but scuba diving has. I am seeing the coral reefs disappear bit by bit and this means the disappearance of entire ecosystems which in general is the forebringer of mass extinction.

Mass extinction is a process that has happened before. Luckily not ALL life ends, but only most of it. We make way for new species. This is what gives me comfort. Perhaps the next generation will do a better job at growing up than we did. I see our extinction as inevitable by now. Human kind is not ready for the responsibility it has, given the technology and destructive power we have developed. We don't even have our (over)population under control.


So in my view DMT is not responsible for any deeper meaning, nor is it encoded into our system by some outside alien-engineers - though who knows, it might be, I simply don't see it as an obvious conclusion from DMT experiences, nor from the existence of the molecule. I think all things on this planet have evolved together in some way and thus somehow fit into one another. The anatomy of a squirrel implies the existence of trees, the hermit crab's implies the sea shell... The human mind and dmt are also somehow interlinked, through evolution - a process we still don't fully understand. Because let's face it, we don't even understand life or what experience really is.

 

[SnozzleBerry]

What's the deeper meaning of DMT ?

A singular meaning? I think not. Perhaps we can boil it down to major underlying themes (love, beauty, growth, etc.) but these broad themes rob the meanings of individual experiences, imo. And even proclaiming "these themes" as the "deeper meaning" seems to miss a good chunk of what it is to experience the ineffable, imo.

I've done done DMT somewhere between 400-500 times (I stopped counting around the 2 hundred mark) and all my earlier trips seemed to be priming me for something bigger, all my recent trips have given me an overwhelming sense that we are destroying the natural balance of life and if we keep heading down this path we will wipe out all life on this beautiful planet.

So what are you doing about it, eh? That seems to be the relevant question here.

In my opinion, most of the "messages" I've received on psychedelics, when I have received "messages" as such, seem radical/revolutionary--given our current social context--if the messages are followed to their natural conclusions, i.e.

- If the message is "natural ecosystems are important," then action is required against the forces of industrial capitalism, in order to preserve those ecosystems.
- If the message is "we are all connected," then action is required to halt the atomizing/fragmenting of human connections inherent to dominant culture.
- If the message is "Love...love yourself and those around you," then action is required to halt the consumerist paradigm predicated on the assertion that you are incomplete and unlovable, unless you buy things.

These are just a few examples, but the list goes on and on.

The other day, while talking about things along the lines of what I've listed here with a good friend, he half-jokingly said to me, "Just tell them, 'If you like psychedelics, you'll love revolution.'"

Beyond these very narrow presentations of explicit messages, I'm inclined to agree with Enoon.

 

[○]

There's an underlying message I get every time, alongside the various motifs, symbols, teachings from various forces, and this happened way before I ever thought seriously about the whole "we are one" and being all the same thing, and reading ancient eastern texts such as the bhagavad gita and the various upanishads, and the message is:



<<<< see screenname.

That message in and of itself is all you need to know, and in knowing that, everything else unfolds along with it.



If that message alone isn't breathtaking and liberating in and of itself, then I don't know what is..

 

[--Shadow]

Hey Hieronymous .. Either you're overlooking or I missed something.. probably both
I must have missed these posts you are referring to, likely just a timing issue.

Anyways....

Personally.. I don't think there's any deeper "meaning" of DMT other than the what you individually want to attribute to it. To me, this is simply the integration work that happens during\after an experience.

It seems like it was designed to be discovered by intelligent beings when their technology is at the level where it has to be to understand it.

I'd like to hear your reasons why it seems this way to you, and what 'technology' are you referring to? technology to extract/synthesize it? advances in chemistry? etc

From a philosophical point of view, I would imagine that if there were any element in chemistry that were planted there by an intelligent designer for man to discover, it would be carbon. My reason is that this is the only element with the required properties that allow it create the "building blocks of life"

I have had similar thought patterns to yourself. But this is me just getting older and with age comes more realization of the finality of life. I experience this when I go to a great holiday destination. Once I get home, you realise that time is short.. it's flying past.
There's only a finite number of full moons, or sunrise's that we will experience in our lives.. but we tend not to think of it in this way. These moments we may generally think of as endless and may take for granted.

To me these thoughts are not a product of DMT telling me anything. It's in the media everywhere you look. We are smashing the planet on a level never seen before. The data is telling us climate is warming. We hear about doom and gloom everywhere...

Life to date has evolved to our environment, which has been far from predictable. Though, as you mention with advances in genetic engineering the game has changed a little. But for argument sakes, what "chemical message" would you send to the future?

The hormone ghrelin tell's me in chemical messages that I'm hungry. Not directly, but thru a complex chain of chemical reactions and signals. So what would DMT's message say by this same reasoning?

 

[AcaciaConfusedYah]

"Between the conscious and unconscious, the mind has put up a swing.
all earth creatures, even the supernovas, sway between these two trees.
and it never winds down.

Angels, animals, humans, insects by the million, also the wheeling sun and moon;
ages go by, and it goes on.

Everything is swinging: heaven, earth, water, fire, and the secret one slowly growing a body.
Kabir caught one glimpse of that; it made him a servant for life"

----Kabir, 15th century poet

 

[Hieronymous]

Thanks for the input everyone.

I'm surprised that what I wrote was even comprehensible, I wrote that last night after 2 1/2 bottles of red wine.

Obviously a lot of what I've written is pure speculation based on nothing more than an over active imagination.

@ Shadow - I tend think that life and intelligence would evolve along very similar lines anywhere in the universe. Surely if intelligent life has existed elsewhere in the universe there would be many parallels to the way it's evolved on earth almost to the point where it's predictable to a large degree.

Once the first few tools are conceived and beings start applying abstract logic to solve problems then that civilisation would eventually head down the path of investigation into what makes everything tick and start categorising things (science)

Once that science reaches the level where molecules can be identified and created then it's only a matter of time before DMT would be discovered. Again I feel that evolution would happen at a rate that is predictable to some extent and would almost always happen at or around the time of parallel developments in electronics and information technology. Another predictable coincidence that could also happen around the same time is the development of nuclear technology.

Other coinciding factors would be the exploitation of resources and pollution that inevitably follows advances in science. Science is good at identifying ways to exploit things for profit, but poorly funded when it comes to dealing with waste and pollution.

After all the above assumptions I made, I believe that DMT is needed as a salvation for any society caught up in a mad rush for profits at the expense of the planet that gives them life. As far as I know there aren't too many other molecules that can be such a powerful catalyst to make people sit up and pay attention.

 

[SnozzleBerry]

The discovery and usage of DMT are much older than you seem to suggest.

 

[Hieronymous]

Where did I suggest the use of DMT is recent Snozz ?

I said Ayahuasca has been used for a long time but the discovery of the molecule is recent. If I did say that then sorry, it wasn't what I intended to convey.

 

[Enoon]

Intelligence could evolve on a planet a lot younger than the earth (or simply with a different history) where things like fossile fules and other fast energy sources were not available. A civilization given those "disatvantages" could develope entirely different strategies for growth, learning at a younger age how important resource management is, rather than being spoiled by the availability of oil. A civilization like that might develope slower concerning electronic technology and anything that requires energy - transportation/travel etc. - but this might actually give it an advantage to evolve philosophically, ethically and psychologically before actually gaining the power to reak havoc.

Just a thought.

 

[Shanghigher]

I have to say, one message I definitely don't need psychedelics to understand is the vast swathes of damage we are doing to the planet. Without wanting to sound negative, the fact that it's taken you some 400+ trips to get to where I was 13 years ago before I even so much as smoked a spliff when it comes to the environment only goes to cement my deep concern that humanity has doomed itself. The only thing bigger in size than the weight of scientific data on the subject is the collective shrug humanity gives to it.

I think SnozzleBerry is right on the money here. The message on our bleak environmental future is painfully obvious. The real question is what are you going to do about it? Smoke DMT and drink two and half bottles of wine, or work towards the solution?

 

[Hieronymous]

I think you are making a lot of unfounded assumptions about me with that statement. Suggesting that it took me over 400 trips to come to that realisation is not accurate at all.

I realised the world was on borrowed time when I was seven years old and my favourite bushland was bulldozed to build an industrial park. I'm in my mid forties now so it was in no way a recent thing. I've been an environmental activist for many years and been involved landcare and bushland re-generation projects on and off for nearly 30 years.

My early experiences with DMT were mostly benign with minor insights gained, but recently almost all my insights seem to revolve around this theme that we are running out of time fast and the message is being conveyed with an increasing sense of urgency.

What am I going to do about it ?

What I already do, educate my kids so they can see the folly of this corporate controlled world. I present them with questions about the world we live in and do my best to guide them into a respectful mindset where they know their decisions have moral and environmental impacts on the people and the world around them. A bit like Aboriginal people have done for thousands of years before the world became a throw away item.

 

[Shanghigher]

Apologies, Hieronymous. It did seem that way from this statement:

I've done done DMT somewhere between 400-500 times (I stopped counting around the 2 hundred mark) and all my earlier trips seemed to be priming me for something bigger, all my recent trips have given me an overwhelming sense that we are destroying the natural balance of life and if we keep heading down this path we will wipe out all life on this beautiful planet.

It sounds like you are already acting upon it, though! My underlying point from my own comment is that this isn't a topic which requires drugs, and perhaps all the DMT is doing in your case is reinforcing what you already know.

 

[SKA]

DMT's ultimate purpose, I found is to reveal truths. Hidden truths.
Truths we(our Egos) hide from ourselves out of fear, shame, guilt, pride or anger.

Each DMT journey we will uncover different truths. The truths that we need to uncover at that particulair time.
We get to uncover the truths we are currently hiding from ourselves. But always the revelations of hidden truths.

Hidden truths about your behavioural habbits & the underlying beliefs & experiencs that shaped them. Hidden truths about your surpressed feelings about past & present experiences. Hidden truths about the social, psychological efects of your behaviours on others around you. Hidden truths about your deepest fears, resentments, desires, talents, psycho-spiritual abilities weaknesses & the vastness, importance and depth of our Imagination.
In general the hidden truths of your psyche/consciousness is what DMT reveals.
Through the deepest layers & right down to the core of our being, like no other Psychedelic ever could.

DMT is the ultimate Egocidal, transcendental & spiritually enriching compound in my opinion.

 

[Hieronymous]

DMT's ultimate purpose, I found is to reveal truths. Hidden truths.
Truths we(our Egos) hide from ourselves out of fear, shame, guilt, pride or anger.

Each DMT journey we will uncover different truths. The truths that we need to uncover at that particulair time.
We get to uncover the truths we are currently hiding from ourselves. But always the revelations of hidden truths.

Hidden truths about your behavioural habbits & the underlying beliefs & experiencs that shaped them. Hidden truths about your surpressed feelings about past & present experiences. Hidden truths about the social, psychological efects of your behaviours on others around you. Hidden truths about your deepest fears, resentments, desires, talents, psycho-spiritual abilities weaknesses & the vastness, importance and depth of our Imagination.
In general the hidden truths of your psyche/consciousness is what DMT reveals.
Through the deepest layers & right down to the core of our being, like no other Psychedelic ever could.

DMT is the ultimate Egocidal, transcendental & spiritually enriching compound in my opinion.

I think this is about as close as my (sober) mind could ever come to appraise my experiences with DMT. In retrospect I always come to very a similar conclusion to your take on my musings. Without doubt my perspective has been shaped by my experience and this conditioning has shaped my personal world view which is reflected and more than likely amplified under the influence of the molecule.

Wise words indeed

When I'm under the influence of the molecule, that rational thought pattern seems to take a backseat and other influences (subconscious ?) come to the fore.

@ Shanghigher Kudos to you for expressing your opinion and for the humility you've displayed after reading reading my reply. I'm guessing you're much younger than me and I really value the opinions of people younger than myself. Beliefs need to be challenged for a higher truth to evolve.

Respect :thumb_up:

& Enoon - very poignant observations indeed, I thought your perspective was an excellent alternative to the hasty conclusions I've postulated in my drunken ramblings.

 

[SnozzleBerry]

Where did I suggest the use of DMT is recent Snozz ?

I said Ayahuasca has been used for a long time but the discovery of the molecule is recent. If I did say that then sorry, it wasn't what I intended to convey.

Could you define 'discovery' then?

Did Columbus (or Vespucci, or whoever dominant culture assigns such mythos to) 'discover' America or was it already 'discovered' by those living there?

Does utilizing DMT not implicitly present the 'discovery' of the molecule? If not, by what process does one go about using something they have not 'discovered'?

It seems to me that you are using the term 'discovery' in a limiting way and one that, imo, distorts a much broader/deeper history.

Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that it is only recently that individuals within the context of industrial civilizations have become aware of DMT?

Just some thoughts...

 

[Hieronymous]

When I say "discovered" I was merely referring to the discovery of the molecule in a chemical context.

I think most of us here would agree that DMT was discovered well before the molecule was ever defined in scientific terms.

I suppose the term discovered was largely inaccurate as it was a known quantity by south American and arguably some other cultures. I believe that DMT was not known as a psychedelic substance until circa 1950-1960 when the compound was isolated and investigated. Less scientifically orientated cultures would have viewed it as a "plant spirit"

Good point I will adjust my verbage to a more appropriate reflection.

 

[Ufostrahlen]

Maybe the message is:

Human, this is the DMT molecule. Ingest it and learn from it. Take it as a prototype model and derive new molecular structures from it. Because you might want a longer duration of action, a substance to exit the trip and not everyone of your species is interested in extraction or brewing, so a small and easy pill from the pharmacy could come in handy.

Also what's up with only one pharmaceutical form? Don't you like some diversion? There's Pepsi, Coke, Dr Pepper, green tea, coffee, guarana, Redbull etc. for caffeine. Why not some diversion in 5HT2A-psychedelics? Take some DMT, AL-LAD, 2C-E, 25I-NBOH, Bromo-DragonFly, 5-MeO-DALT, peyote etc. Learn, experiment and have fun!

 

[--Shadow]

@ Shadow - I tend think that life and intelligence would evolve along very similar lines anywhere in the universe. Surely if intelligent life has existed elsewhere in the universe there would be many parallels to the way it's evolved on earth almost to the point where it's predictable to a large degree.

Once the first few tools are conceived and beings start applying abstract logic to solve problems then that civilisation would eventually head down the path of investigation into what makes everything tick and start categorising things (science)

Once that science reaches the level where molecules can be identified and created then it's only a matter of time before DMT would be discovered. Again I feel that evolution would happen at a rate that is predictable to some extent and would almost always happen at or around the time of parallel developments in electronics and information technology. Another predictable coincidence that could also happen around the same time is the development of nuclear technology.

You've mentioned a couple of things here that have provoked some deeper thoughts... It's to do with mathematics and logic. I'm @ work atm but I'll be spending some time contemplating a few things before I post nonsensical content

 

[some one]

Mushrooms made me consider this: nature = technology.

What if plants are super advanced mathematical engineered robotic technology with self learning capabilities?

About DMT...

Maybe an alien race genetically engineered certain plants to contain DMT knowing its effect? But if they did, why does DMT neurologically trigger what it does? Why do so many plants cointain DMT? Coincidence or design? If design, is all life is designed by an alien race?

If nature is technology from the start, no alien race is needed in the theory. Plants already are genetically engineered (by themselves) to contain DMT. Organisms are already engineered (by themselves) to react on DMT.

This still doesn't answer: why? Why does DMT do what it does?

But why does there need to be a why? Part of our programming as humans, especially the male part of our programming, is to be goal orientated. Everything we do must have a reason (a goal). Doing things without a goal is a waste of time. When we try to explain external phenomena we implement this 'goal logic'. Therefor we cannot understand something happens without a reason, as there must always be a goal. Its one of our mind traps.

This explains why we try to seek reasons for DMT to exist. However, this still doesn't answer anything: There not needing to be a reason, doesnt proof there is no reason. There might just as well be a reason.

Again this loop brings us back to square one: does DMT have a reason and if so what?

The reality is: the possibilities are endless.

Maybe life is a simulation (reason: experiment /game of a higher race), nature is technology (reason: most efficient form of life), DMT is a shortcut to skip levels (reason: like those hidden tunnels in Super Mario created for game testing proposes)? Maybe the force of life which has no judgment of right and wrong and whose only goal is survival no matter what has found this shortcut and is implementing it to fulfill its main purpose: survival? In that case, life could try use it to stop humans from destroying them selfs, why not?

I stopped philosophizing. In fact I never really tried. All I do is flow where my thoughts take me. And try to follow the signs. Right now I see nature as technology. Plant are the most advanced. Movable organisms (we) serve the plants. DMT could be part of that process. DMT helps humans to reach the next level of evolution: unity. When unity happens we are connected like bees increasing our consciousness exponentially. Lives goal is to keep increasing its consciousness. Or maybe there is no goal. Maybe tomorrow I will have thought up something completely different. Who knows..

All I know is: there is no point in over thinking, stressing and argueing too much.

Everything is Maya. The more you seek answers, the worse it gets.

Peace