theres these theories about dmt being releases in our bodies during birth and death. it is in plants and in animals, and nobody knows what the heck its purpose is. we can figure out just about everything there is to know about every other compound and the purpose it serves with great success, but we have no clue regarding this one. some people jldont want to try it and their reason is that they think if its for birth and death that they dont want to mess with something that crucial. and it makes me curious. could there be something to their reasoning? could we be messing with something that will have an impact on how we experience death, or even rebirth? or any part of the possible transitions between states of conciousness?
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what the heck is dmt?
- Thread starter Bisy
- Start date
King Tryptamine
Esteemed member
I don't think DMT occurs naturally in humans personally and certainly isn't released during birth and death, there's just not enough scientific literature on the subject to point to. I think that's just a myth that has been perpetuated by people who don't know no better. I believe people experiencing bright lights before death is more likely to be as a result of a half conscious oxygen deprived brain in a brightly lit hospital or operating room or even perhaps a paramedic checking a patients pupil diameter.
King Tryptamine said:
But it does occur naturally in humans, measured in bodily fluids in the ~100ng per L range. Some references below.
Wyatt RJ, Mandel LR, Ahn HS, Walker RW, Vanden Heuvel WJ (July 1973). "Gas chromatographic-mass spectrometric isotope dilution determination of N,N-dimethyltryptamine concentrations in normals and psychiatric patients". Psychopharmacologia. 31 (3): 265–70. doi:10.1007/BF00422516. PMID 4517484. S2CID 42469897.
Angrist B, Gershon S, Sathananthan G, Walker RW, Lopez-Ramos B, Mandel LR, Vandenheuvel WJ (May 1976). "Dimethyltryptamine levels in blood of schizophrenic patients and control subjects". Psychopharmacology. 47 (1): 29–32. doi:10.1007/BF00428697. PMID 803203. S2CID 5850801.
Forsström T, Tuominen J, Karkkäinen J (2001). "Determination of potentially hallucinogenic N-dimethylated indoleamines in human urine by HPLC/ESI-MS-MS". Scandinavian Journal of Clinical and Laboratory Investigation. 61 (7): 547–56.
It does occur naturally in the human body, together with many other compounds (including 5-MeO-DMT), and there are different hypotheses as to why it is there. It could have one or several different functions. This is a very extensive review on the subject... but as KT said, AFAIK there is no evidence that it is released during birth or death.
As for the questions of whether DMT can affect our death/rebirth... What if not embalming/mummifying you like the egyptians did will prevent you from reaching the afterlife? What if using computers affect your rebirth process? What if eating anything but apples affects how you experience your death?
I think at some point you have to get on with your life, and live the way you feel brings you the most health and awareness. Death is the great Unknown, it is uncontrolable. Life, on the other hand, we can control our actions and try to do as best as we can to make it positive and meaningful. If psychedelics are not a part of that, so be it.. If they are a net positive and you want to use them, then great.
As for the questions of whether DMT can affect our death/rebirth... What if not embalming/mummifying you like the egyptians did will prevent you from reaching the afterlife? What if using computers affect your rebirth process? What if eating anything but apples affects how you experience your death?
I think at some point you have to get on with your life, and live the way you feel brings you the most health and awareness. Death is the great Unknown, it is uncontrolable. Life, on the other hand, we can control our actions and try to do as best as we can to make it positive and meaningful. If psychedelics are not a part of that, so be it.. If they are a net positive and you want to use them, then great.
Th3_tRuTh
Yūgen "a profound, mysterious sense of the beauty
I think we still have a lot to learn and we may never truly understand what the purpose of this molecule is other than what we glean from our own experiences. I really couldn't begin to tell you what I think this stuff was meant for.
I like the idea that it is a biological failsafe for the earth so that when we get too big for our planet, a natural call back to the earth mother gives us a chance to wake up and fix things before another cataclysm is needed, or maybe just a way to bring us back to where we came from as we usher in the new near extinction phase.
I believe in the cycles of life. I believe we have been here for far longer than 12k - 15k years. I believe that our cycle is one of exponential growth until we scar the earth and a climate changing natural disaster nearly wipes us out and forces us to start over. I believe we go through this cycle over and over again, and these entheogens (DMT especially) are here as portals into who we really are so that we never fully lose touch with real reality.
These are just beliefs of course. I could be dead wrong in all of this and that's okay. I just like this idea.
I like the idea that it is a biological failsafe for the earth so that when we get too big for our planet, a natural call back to the earth mother gives us a chance to wake up and fix things before another cataclysm is needed, or maybe just a way to bring us back to where we came from as we usher in the new near extinction phase.
I believe in the cycles of life. I believe we have been here for far longer than 12k - 15k years. I believe that our cycle is one of exponential growth until we scar the earth and a climate changing natural disaster nearly wipes us out and forces us to start over. I believe we go through this cycle over and over again, and these entheogens (DMT especially) are here as portals into who we really are so that we never fully lose touch with real reality.
These are just beliefs of course. I could be dead wrong in all of this and that's okay. I just like this idea.
Dean, J., Liu, T., Huff, S. et al. Biosynthesis and Extracellular Concentrations of N,N-dimethyltryptamine (DMT) in Mammalian Brain. Sci Rep 9, 9333 (2019). Biosynthesis and Extracellular Concentrations of N,N-dimethyltryptamine (DMT) in Mammalian Brain - Scientific Reports
Jees said:
if you could kindly refer me to an article or publication that explains the role of dmt in the various life forms that produce it, i would certainly change the "we" to an "I". meanwhile, i believe i meant it how i wrote it.
so far all we know is that its there, but not why. we dont know what it regulates, what regulates it, hardly anything is known about its purpose.
Seeingisbelieving
Rising Star
This is purely speculation but noticing the spike in dmt during cardiac arrest and the fact that dmt can induce neurogenesis may lead one to believe that dmt is protecting the brain from irreversible damage.
It's a wonderfully terrifying enigma... nuff said
We have a long way to go, if we even can figure it out.
One love
We have a long way to go, if we even can figure it out.
One love
Seeingisbelieving
Rising Star
By the way Bisy, I noticed you commented on a thread I made a few months ago. It might be too early to say but I have noticed that research is leaning towards these substances possibly being used to further understanding and treatments regarding degenerative diseases such as alzheimer's and parkinson's disease. I may be speaking out of line saying that but if you look at the data it seems pretty obvious where this all could lead. Hope you are well and having a great day!
ok, lets all forget about what we know and or can prove now and take a poll on our guesses, or intuitions or whatever u wanna call it. we all have one because thats how we justify doing it. if we found out its bad for you we would lose enthusiasm fast.
i believe for one, that it definitely medicinal. has healing properties, physical and psychological, and that it is quite possible that it may have something to do with birth, death, afterlife events..that would possibly explain how elusive its divine purpose is to us.
i believe for one, that it definitely medicinal. has healing properties, physical and psychological, and that it is quite possible that it may have something to do with birth, death, afterlife events..that would possibly explain how elusive its divine purpose is to us.
Bisy said:
I personally have a variety of theories since it is too mysterious and elusive to pin down.
One idea is that when each of us goes into hyperspace, we access where our individuated consciousnesses emanate into this realm from (and perhaps different minds coming from disparate realms.
Another is that we are accessing a level of mind deep and nested and otherwise inaccessible without a catalyst.
And another is that the mind may be inherently nonphysical and simply presently bound to our current physical states and when we journey we are accessing alternate dimensions and/or realities.
Last one for now; it's a mental plane, potentially mediated by sapient minds other than our own.
I could go on, and the above is highly simplified, but all the same I agree; there is profound utility in multiple facets for us in our present states.
One love
trncefigurate_aomn
Rising Star
Molecules themselves, as a whole, even, are astonishing!!
They seem to be a primordial form of life, though perhaps not the earliest form of life! i think this phrase from wikipedia is helpful.
They aren't grains of sand floating around and coincidentally bumping into eachother!!
Molecules are explicitly, overtly sentient!
This can be confusing because molecules themselves don't have something that looks like a nervous system, but, of course, the nervous system itself is made entirely of molecules!
They seem to be a primordial form of life, though perhaps not the earliest form of life! i think this phrase from wikipedia is helpful.
They aren't grains of sand floating around and coincidentally bumping into eachother!!
Molecules are explicitly, overtly sentient!
This can be confusing because molecules themselves don't have something that looks like a nervous system, but, of course, the nervous system itself is made entirely of molecules!
Really not a science buff but because lately i have been having this contraction of my back with seeming burst of energy every time i smoke some spice, even at rather low doses, i ended up reading about cerebro spinal fluid and the connection with the kundalini is really entertaining.
If there is one thing that has been intimitately intertwined with my exprience with psychedelics from early on is the understanding of the experience as a liquid state of mind. This had led me to understand our awarness as derivative of the capacity to remember birth. Life is divided into before birth and after, and then night and day. Both these states share similarities (dreams and pre natal states) and these can be observed all throughout the way we engage with reality on a daily basis as we have this extreme tendency of blurring the lines between these alternating ways of perceiving reality. Basically the capacity of the mind to project itself can be seen as a derivative of the experience we have in the womb, of experiencing the world through the body of someone else (something that is replicated extensively throuhg technology and could be seen as a defyning characteristics of objects, and therefor culture).
So that's for the personal theory but in India and China, in the respective yogic and taoist traditions, even the buddhist one, there has been a great focus on bringing the mind back to an embryonic state. A striking exemple would be the Hindu temples. It will always be comprised of a tall tower with fractal like attributes and inner self replicating smaller pattern all the way throughout that keep emanating in a great movement toward the top, all possible part are filled and sculpted in great details. Yet the inner sanctum will always be a more raw, little room that light barely reaches and that is called the "embryonic chamber", in which an image of the linga or the deity will be exposed. It is supposed to represent the spiritual path of the practicioner that goes through the world of illusion to the more naked place of emptiness. The symbolism being brought back here to its root as very sexual too.
As for the CSF, it is formed during embryonic developement from the amniotic fluid and helps to developement and protection aswell as having a waste capacity, it bathes the brain and the goes all the way down the spin. It is formed from the amniotic fluid in the very early stage of developement. It is formed and interacts constantly with the ventricular system, where the pineal and pituatary gland are located (therefor meltonin and that kind of stuff, with all the evoactive mystic around it). Apparently it is still under researched but we know of previous study that there is presence of dmt in there. In general because of the way it function physiologically, the similarities with the kundalini described in yoga is striking.
Again, because of personal elongated experience of meditation, it is hard for me to believe dmt would not be available for realease or have a use within us. Though it is plausible that because of the current state of our society and the predominance of language such possibilities are lost. With little concentration it is possible to get sharpness of vision, vividness of colors and retinal persistance augmented by a significative and observable margin, through various means and those don't include hyper ventilation. It is arguable that reaching with the dmt from within the level of an exogenous experience might be extremely difficult, yet i've gone as far as making things moved and it felt very very spicey. Someone more dedicated or skilled could surely go a little further still.
For the experience in itself, it is often said we might be at the source of creation. There is actual similarities between entity encounters and subconscious processing of daily experience. Within our mind, at a level below language all there is are these kind of interaction maybe. What can be noted is that, in the womb, we also experience something similar. In a circular space, surrounded by people doing things. This state might eventually be carried out into early childhood.
To ties things back to where i started. Because it is impossible to obtain the capacity of language without control of the breath and because psychedelics experiences by being vehicules of dream states will forcefully bring awarness to it - in dreams, like in the pre natal states, breath can't be made aware, but birth being characterised by pentration of both lungs by air and eyes by light, it is possible that hallucinations would bring awarness to it. In my eyes it's possible that another feature of mankind would have been shaped by an extreme focus toward breath, that is the all body pulsating along with it. In exhalation, contracting into a foetal pose. While in inhalation, reaching all the way back , opening up into a standing pose. Aligning the body with the vertical axis of breath. Making the spine along the same axis as the plants ...
Maybe dmt and cerebro the spinal liquid have some place within this narrative. I find it a bit fascinating though it's just a weird idea (like all ideas!). If anyone more well versed in science would make all sort of weird theories about this it would be really fun.
If there is one thing that has been intimitately intertwined with my exprience with psychedelics from early on is the understanding of the experience as a liquid state of mind. This had led me to understand our awarness as derivative of the capacity to remember birth. Life is divided into before birth and after, and then night and day. Both these states share similarities (dreams and pre natal states) and these can be observed all throughout the way we engage with reality on a daily basis as we have this extreme tendency of blurring the lines between these alternating ways of perceiving reality. Basically the capacity of the mind to project itself can be seen as a derivative of the experience we have in the womb, of experiencing the world through the body of someone else (something that is replicated extensively throuhg technology and could be seen as a defyning characteristics of objects, and therefor culture).
So that's for the personal theory but in India and China, in the respective yogic and taoist traditions, even the buddhist one, there has been a great focus on bringing the mind back to an embryonic state. A striking exemple would be the Hindu temples. It will always be comprised of a tall tower with fractal like attributes and inner self replicating smaller pattern all the way throughout that keep emanating in a great movement toward the top, all possible part are filled and sculpted in great details. Yet the inner sanctum will always be a more raw, little room that light barely reaches and that is called the "embryonic chamber", in which an image of the linga or the deity will be exposed. It is supposed to represent the spiritual path of the practicioner that goes through the world of illusion to the more naked place of emptiness. The symbolism being brought back here to its root as very sexual too.
As for the CSF, it is formed during embryonic developement from the amniotic fluid and helps to developement and protection aswell as having a waste capacity, it bathes the brain and the goes all the way down the spin. It is formed from the amniotic fluid in the very early stage of developement. It is formed and interacts constantly with the ventricular system, where the pineal and pituatary gland are located (therefor meltonin and that kind of stuff, with all the evoactive mystic around it). Apparently it is still under researched but we know of previous study that there is presence of dmt in there. In general because of the way it function physiologically, the similarities with the kundalini described in yoga is striking.
Again, because of personal elongated experience of meditation, it is hard for me to believe dmt would not be available for realease or have a use within us. Though it is plausible that because of the current state of our society and the predominance of language such possibilities are lost. With little concentration it is possible to get sharpness of vision, vividness of colors and retinal persistance augmented by a significative and observable margin, through various means and those don't include hyper ventilation. It is arguable that reaching with the dmt from within the level of an exogenous experience might be extremely difficult, yet i've gone as far as making things moved and it felt very very spicey. Someone more dedicated or skilled could surely go a little further still.
For the experience in itself, it is often said we might be at the source of creation. There is actual similarities between entity encounters and subconscious processing of daily experience. Within our mind, at a level below language all there is are these kind of interaction maybe. What can be noted is that, in the womb, we also experience something similar. In a circular space, surrounded by people doing things. This state might eventually be carried out into early childhood.
To ties things back to where i started. Because it is impossible to obtain the capacity of language without control of the breath and because psychedelics experiences by being vehicules of dream states will forcefully bring awarness to it - in dreams, like in the pre natal states, breath can't be made aware, but birth being characterised by pentration of both lungs by air and eyes by light, it is possible that hallucinations would bring awarness to it. In my eyes it's possible that another feature of mankind would have been shaped by an extreme focus toward breath, that is the all body pulsating along with it. In exhalation, contracting into a foetal pose. While in inhalation, reaching all the way back , opening up into a standing pose. Aligning the body with the vertical axis of breath. Making the spine along the same axis as the plants ...
Maybe dmt and cerebro the spinal liquid have some place within this narrative. I find it a bit fascinating though it's just a weird idea (like all ideas!). If anyone more well versed in science would make all sort of weird theories about this it would be really fun.
Tomtegubbe
Esteemed member
Incredible text, AikyO! You have an incredible perspective. It's quite easy to forget we travel every night (some say astral project) but when we are awake we don't really connect with that world.
I have had several times flashbacks from dreams while on DMT. Who knows if it is released during night. We can't take samples.
I have had several times flashbacks from dreams while on DMT. Who knows if it is released during night. We can't take samples.
Jees said:
ok, so ill agree that "no clues" could be inaccurate or misleading, but "we" stays. that is what "we" are doing here.
and another question for everyone: aside from fats, dmt, and the carbon based makeup of what we are made of, what do we share with the plant world? also besides our symbiotic relationships. still trying to brainstorn what dmt's purpose is
Thanks Tomtegubbe !
It has happen to me also after my first few experience that were quite strong, very vivid dreams and an hyperspace flavor. Especially one time when falling asleep listening to music and it was quite intense.
As for plants i don't know but they really are alive. However this is often felt in a pareidolic way, like antropomorphism. Yet aren't we emerged from the embodiement of the world around us ? Of plants too ? We often think ourselves very different but if when we see a certain shape in branches or if blades of grass look happy, maybe it's not just us but that emotion expressed in a simple way and it is very common.
Often in my trips, there is extreme livefulness of what i'm seeing, feeling. It's like every inch of every bit of every particle of reality is swirming with life. Wether if all of that is my conscioucness, i am alive, my body is so how could i experience anything else ?
It has happen to me also after my first few experience that were quite strong, very vivid dreams and an hyperspace flavor. Especially one time when falling asleep listening to music and it was quite intense.
As for plants i don't know but they really are alive. However this is often felt in a pareidolic way, like antropomorphism. Yet aren't we emerged from the embodiement of the world around us ? Of plants too ? We often think ourselves very different but if when we see a certain shape in branches or if blades of grass look happy, maybe it's not just us but that emotion expressed in a simple way and it is very common.
Often in my trips, there is extreme livefulness of what i'm seeing, feeling. It's like every inch of every bit of every particle of reality is swirming with life. Wether if all of that is my conscioucness, i am alive, my body is so how could i experience anything else ?
