SWIM would like to know what the optimal pH to extract from MHRB is, as well as the minimum pH. Some info says 9+, others 11, or 12, some even 14.
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Whats the optimal pH to extract from MHRB?
- Thread starter Bas Sarkin
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Hi Bas,
Most methods use an abundance of sodium hydroxide to help with the breakdown of the plant material and change the ionic strength of the mixture therefore the ph will in most instances be somewhere around ph 13 to the max of 14, this is the optimal range for STB methods with some AB methods one could do with a little lower range of Ph.
Ow and swimming is something that is more suited for the pool
Most methods use an abundance of sodium hydroxide to help with the breakdown of the plant material and change the ionic strength of the mixture therefore the ph will in most instances be somewhere around ph 13 to the max of 14, this is the optimal range for STB methods with some AB methods one could do with a little lower range of Ph.
Ow and swimming is something that is more suited for the pool
It's also a matter of exactly how one goes about extracting from the MHRB. Using hot (60°C) vodka, one can obtain a tincture at the natural pH of the bark. Calcium hydroxide can then be used to precipitate the tannins while simultaneously converting the DMT to freebase, albeit still dissolved in aqueous ethanol. An exact pH measurement is unnecessary with such a method, although it remains to be seen whether the crude freebase would be directly usable from this procedure, after evaporating the vodka. As such, it constitutes a work in progress.
Can a different base be used instead? I suppose the answer is "no", but I don't understand why solutions of different bases at the same pH aren't equivalent for these purposes. Can you point me to some keywords to look up and learn about it?
Yes, that’s possible. However, there are different bases, and each forms different salts. So sodium hydroxide will react with HCl to make sodium chloride.
Depending on what you intend to do with the salt or solution afterward, different reactions may occur between the base and, for example, the substance you’re trying to precipitate or dissolve.
The solubility of bases in water also varies, but also in ethanol and other substances, so I guess this would be the reason in the example why calcium hydroxide is used instead of sodium hydroxide.
Some bases dissolve well in water (like sodium hydroxide), while others are much less soluble (like calcium hydroxide). This affects how effectively the base can react in solution, but also what is left out of the solution that is filtered of.
Finally, there are also volatile bases, such as ammonia.
This can be useful if you don’t want any base to remain in your final product. Ammonia evaporates easily, so it can be removed completely after the reaction.
So apart from the pH there are many other parameters to consider for choosing your base, but all that have the potential for high Ph solutions will convert DMT into the freebase form.
Depending on what you intend to do with the salt or solution afterward, different reactions may occur between the base and, for example, the substance you’re trying to precipitate or dissolve.
The solubility of bases in water also varies, but also in ethanol and other substances, so I guess this would be the reason in the example why calcium hydroxide is used instead of sodium hydroxide.
Some bases dissolve well in water (like sodium hydroxide), while others are much less soluble (like calcium hydroxide). This affects how effectively the base can react in solution, but also what is left out of the solution that is filtered of.
Finally, there are also volatile bases, such as ammonia.
This can be useful if you don’t want any base to remain in your final product. Ammonia evaporates easily, so it can be removed completely after the reaction.
So apart from the pH there are many other parameters to consider for choosing your base, but all that have the potential for high Ph solutions will convert DMT into the freebase form.
Thank you for this excellent answer, I hadn't considered the solubility of the bases and the different salts that form. Here the idea is that the DMT freebase will dissolve in alcohol while the tannins will precipitate, if I'm correct (just checking).
So, if I understand correctly, ammonia could work in this case if the solution is evaporated afterwards, right? I followed your suggestion to use ammonia for a rue extraction and was very happy with the results.
Sorry for the very basic (high pH?) level of these questions. I'm a chemical ignoramus. I promise to learn the basics better once I'm done with the final project for my degree
Thank you for this excellent answer, I hadn't considered the solubility of the bases and the different salts that form. Here the idea is that the DMT freebase will dissolve in alcohol while the tannins will precipitate, if I'm correct (just checking).
So, if I understand correctly, ammonia could work in this case if the solution is evaporated afterwards, right? I followed your suggestion to use ammonia for a rue extraction and was very happy with the results.
Sorry for the very basic (high pH?) level of these questions. I'm a chemical ignoramus. I promise to learn the basics better once I'm done with the final project for my degree
Yes, that seems to be the idea, but I’ve never tried it before so I don’t know if it works.
For precipitating tannins, ammonia wouldn’t be a first choice, because the resulting salt, ammonium tannate, could very well dissolve in the water fraction present in the ethanol, and might even be somewhat soluble in ethanol itself. That could lead to contamination of the DMT with ammonium salts.
Calcium tannate, on the other hand, is probably not soluble in either, which is why it’s the suggested option.
Also note that I don’t have any background in chemistry so this is al based on my limited knowledge on the subject. Curious to hear what your plan is for your final project.
In a normal situation I would no doubt follow the suggested option. However right now I'm at a place where it's pretty difficult to get almost anything: right now my only available bases are lye and ammonia. So I was looking for alternatives, and also trying to understand why they may not work (I didn't understand it because I was only thinking in terms of pH). But if there's no other realistic option I'll end up getting calcium hydroxide (well, probably calcium oxide and convert it, as it's more easily available).
In the land of the blind, the one-eyed is king
My knowledge of chemistry is so little that it's actually embarrassing. I've been learning some of the very basics since joining the Nexus, but I still have a long way to go. I plan on at least learning the basics well.
You can make calcium hydroxide, either, as you say, by burning chalk in a furnace and adding water to the resulting calcium oxide - fun but mildly dangerous! - or by mixing lye with the appropriate amount of calcium chloride (available as dehumidifier granules, but best to purify it first). In the latter case it will be mixed with sodium chloride solution, which may or may not be a problem.
Calcium hydroxide has a retrograde solubility curve, so filtering it while boiling hot will clean it up quite a bit.
Thanks for this suggestion, some people in the area make cheese and calcium chloride is sometimes used to help with hardening it. So maybe I will be able to find food grade calcium chloride.
It’s a very nice reaction to perform, the instant crashing out of the calcium hydroxide is very satisfying, also wash the precipitation with ample water to remove any remaining salts and then boil as transform mentioned.
Great to hear you've tried this. I'd do all the washes with boiling water to optimise yield. It's probably even worth adding the lye while it's still hot, if you've freshly dissolved it.
Obviously, exercise extreme caution when handling hot lye solutions!
For me, it helped to know roughly what pKa means and what DMT's pKa is.
Maybe someone else can explain it better, but all you really need to know is DMT's pKa is the pH level where 50% of it will be soluble in water as a cation, and 50% of it will be soluble in non-polar solvent as freebase. When the pH is higher than the pKa, it tends toward its freebase form, and when the pH is lower it tends toward being a cation.
Substance's pKa = 50% ion, 50% freebase.
+1 from the pKa = 10% ion, 90% freebase.
-1 from the pKa = 90% ion, 10% freebase.
And each additional numeral from the pKa adds another 9 to the end. pKa +2 = 1% ion : 99% freebase.
DMT's pKa is 8.68.
8.68 pH = 50:50
9.68 pH = 10:90
10.68 pH = 1:99
11.68 pH = 0.1:99.9
and so on.
In my opinion 10.68 pH is high enough, and you start to get diminishing effects from higher pH. A full point from 12.68 pH to 13.68 pH would only shift solubility by 0.009%. And since we do repeated pulls, it's not necessary to try to move five nines of it over at once. But you could spike it to a higher pH before the last pull maybe to really squeeze out every mg you can. And there might be other reasons to go higher depending on the extraction.
As far as minimum, 10% of the DMT should be available as freebase even at 7.68pH. I've never tried it though.
What tek are you going to do blig-blug? the vodka tonic?
The "q21q21 tek 2"dry tek uses calcium hydroxide if you're set on that. It's a great tek, noob friendly with superb results. You can find calcium hydroxide at aquarium shops, sometimes sold as "kalkwasser". It's also in grocery stores sold as "pickling lime".
You shouldn't be afraid to just use lye though, since it's what you already have access to. In that case "cyb's max ion" tek is good.
I have heard rumors of losses when using ammonia.
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Yes, I'm interested in seeing if it keeps more mimosa actives beyond DMT.
Actually it's kind of the opposite: right now I have only lye available, but the vodka tek requires calcium hydroxide. I'm looking into obtaining calcium oxide or calcium chloride.
I have used Cyb's max ion with good results in the past
Do you think the 3 hours at 60C that the video uses for acorns will be enough for mimosa? Maybe it would be better or easier to just do the same as for the CWE but with vodka instead.
Maybe cold would work, since the acorn tek was specifically intended to remove tannins, whereas we would optimally minimise the amount of tannins which require subsequent separation. Ideally, a "CVE" should be compared alongside the hot vodka. We'd then find out how much DMT, if any, remains bound to undissolved tannins in the cold extraction.
A quick zap averaged at 60°C seems to get most of the alks out within 30 mins anyhow.
I'm currently doing the cold one, I will only know about the DMT content when I try it, but at least the pigments quickly dissolved in the vodka. The lime step seems to have worked well too, the solution became milky and a dark sediment decanted. After filtering it, it went back to not milky. However, surprisingly there seems to be almost no difference in color between before adding the lime and after filtering the sediment.
I'll try with hot vodka in the future.
What were/are the colours? It should go from dark burgundy to whisky yellow-brown with the hot extract. If still purple black, best try adding more lime, a little at a time.
Dark burgundy to dark burgundy haha, so I'll add more lime. Good to know that it should become clear. My lime is clumpy because I got it by adding water to calcium oxide, so maybe there wasn't enough area of contact between it and the solution.
Yes, you'll want to grind that lime up a bit. Just how easy that is depends on what the lime was burnt from in the first place - chalk will be the easiest. You could try adding the lime as a slurry in vodka, and filtering (straining) out the bigger lumps.
Hopefully, it won't take too much more lime to get a clear solution. Remember, you can rinse the precipitated calcium tannate with a bit more vodka to improve yields, but stronger alcohol will cause more dark red coloured material to redissolve - and don't be tempted to add too much lime at once.
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