whats up with bufotenine?

[69ron]

Again very interesting.

Do people who have experienced the full effects have also experienced the "squiggly little lines" in bufo underdosing? Or, in other words up which point a bufo underdosing can bring someone?

Not usually for SWIM. For SWIM, the squiggly lines mean a good dose was taken and the next phase of visual effects will happen in a few minutes. If the dose is low, he doesn’t see the squiggly lines. But this is apparently different for other people who only see the squiggly lines for the whole trip no matter the dose used.

For SWIM the squiggly lines last at most 5 minutes, usually 3 or so, and then the next visual phase starts.

Could these initial effects be the indication that a proper dose has been taken and once someone reaches the point of the squiggly little lines knows that the rest of the trip will shortly ensue?

The squiggly lines only last for the first few minutes and then the nature of the visual effect changes. The shift in effects coincides with a shift in the tingling sensation felt.

At first the tingling is in the back of the head. At that moment there are NO VISAULS just body load. Shortly after that (depending on the dose) within a minute or two, the squiggly lines are seen. At that point the tingling is spreading through the rest of the body, but isn’t yet present around the eyes. Once the tingling sensation is present around the eyes, the nature of the visual effect changes to the more profound visuals. They look very different. They are not squiggly lines at all, nor are they composed of squiggly lines, they are more like Aztec symbols at first, very well defined, not squiggly at all. It’s a totally different kind of visual effect and unlike any other psychedelic SWIM knows of.

 

[Ginkgo]

Can someone fill me in on why bufotenine is not "supposed to" get across the blood-brain-barrier? I mean, the only difference between psilocin and bufotenine is a change for the hydroxy from position 4 to 5.

 

[69ron]

Psilocin is far less polar than bufotenine. Take a look. That tiny change makes bufotenine (XLogP3=1.2) far more polar than psilocin (XLogP3=2.1). That is why it's believed that it cannot cross the BBB (blood brain barrier).

The XLogP3 of mescaline is 0.7 though, so it's way more polar than bufotenine, and it seems to cross the BBB, or at least metabolites of it do. So I don’t know how reliable that BBB theory is, or maybe a lot of these psychedelics aren't actually active directly in the brain and just set off a chain reaction that leads to effects in the brain without ever reaching the brain themselves.

EDIT: The previous picture I uploaded showing bufotenine n-oxide, bufotenine, and psilocin had an error in it. Bufotenine and psilocin had the names and XlogP3 swapped (the text was surrounding the wrong molecule!). I didn't notice it until just now. I fixed the error and put a corrected image up. Sorry about that.

 

[jamie]

Fractal - How do you find this stuff to smoke? I find it really difficult to inhale a substantial amount at any one time and have to dose really slowly. So I was wondering if you're made out of stone or something?

Haha..well yes actaully I am made out of stone:d

No, its really a bit of a battle with the first hit..I have found that the larger the first hit, the deeper I will go, so that sort of throws out the idea of smoking it slowly..you dont have to smoke it as quick as DMT, but getting in one good first hit seems to always make it stronger for me..

Last night I went real deep with it..but after my first hit I got the body tension and LOTS of nausea, crouched over in the dark nearly puking..and the head tension doesnt feel too nice either..but it only lasted abotu 3 minutes at the most..then i got one more hit(no nausea on that one) and lay back and it all cleared up into only tingling..and VERY deep immersive visions and audio hallucination..

You def have to brave it out to smoke the stuff for the first 2-3 minutes if you want a high dose..lower his spread out arentnearly as bad..but im not doing that anymore since i find it deeper when i get that first large hit..the nausea is consistant in how quick it leaves so I am able to just sort of roll into a ball and go with it lol..

The strange this is that there is NO nausea or tension when i redose..so there is some sort of tolerancy that is built to the side effects.

You know all those videos of the natives snorting yopo?..and they get up drooling ans shaking and smacking their faces etc haha..I can def understand that feeling..

 

[Bill Cipher]

I don't have a great deal of experience with bufotenine, but I have sampled two of Antrocles' extractions with very different results.

The first time (with 25 mgs) there was a fair amount of low grade nausea that stuck around for hours, and the visuals were underwhelming. They consisted mostly of swirling Mandlebrot type fractals, and everything had a very undulating liquid quality that made me feel sea sick.

Recently, however, I smoked 4 separate doses of his latest extraction (using different seeds and Original Face's No Smell Tek - about 21-22 mgs each time - once by itself, once with 30 mgs sublingual THH, once with 30 mgs sublingual caapi copy, and once with a 30 mg combination of the two - each time late at night, wearing headphones in complete darkness) and the results were very different.

Each time, the creepy skull tightening set in immediately with the first hit (which tasted awful), and subsequent hits (which got much easier to take) over the course of the next five minutes resulted in a familiar tryptamine grid which seemed to get closer and closer until it was right on top of me. At this point in each experience, my vantage point seemed to pass through the grid, and the visuals became very vivid and DMT-esque (but strictly 2-dimensional and with it's own unique carnival-like character). Without harmalas, it all moved very fast and there was very little nausea/minimal body load. With both THH and caapi copy, the pace was slowed and both the nausea/body load were fairly prevalent.

My overall impression at this point is as follows:

Bufotenine (for me) is entertaining in the same manner as going to the movies - or maybe more accurately, zoning out in front of a Milkdrop visualizer. It's something to see for sure, but there just isn't anything transformative or meaningful about the experience (for me). It's immersive, it's visually beautiful and it's interesting to occupy that space with a lucid, sober mind - but I find no real challenge or value there to speak of. DMT is just SOOOOOOOOO much more than a visual fireworks display - and for me, bufotenine just rings very hollow in comparison.

 

[burnt]

If there is a metabolite of bufotenine activating it its possible that some people don't have the enzyme types to convert it at the same rate? Which might explain why some people can't get into the immersive state? Not sure how much work has been done on bufotenine metabolites though..

Could bufotenine be actively transported into the BBB? Seretonin is another example of a compound that can't just cross the BBB (i think).

 

[69ron]

Here's an image of serotonin. It's very polar with an XlogP3 of 0.2. Also, for those interested, serotonin is found in Anadenanthera colubrina.

 

[69ron]

NOTE: The previous picture I uploaded showing bufotenine n-oxide, bufotenine, and psilocin had an error in it. Bufotenine and psilocin had the names and XlogP3 swapped (the text was surrounding the wrong molecule!). I didn't notice it until just now. I fixed the error and put a corrected image up. Sorry about that.

 

[Infundibulum]

Again very interesting.

Do people who have experienced the full effects have also experienced the "squiggly little lines" in bufo underdosing? Or, in other words up which point a bufo underdosing can bring someone?

Not usually for SWIM. For SWIM, the squiggly lines mean a good dose was taken and the next phase of visual effects will happen in a few minutes. If the dose is low, he doesn’t see the squiggly lines. But this is apparently different for other people who only see the squiggly lines for the whole trip no matter the dose used.

For SWIM the squiggly lines last at most 5 minutes, usually 3 or so, and then the next visual phase starts.

Again very interesting information.

Now SWIM knows that he's definitely not underdosing. He imagined so after smoking 100mg (a horrible thing to do both because of the nausea and the harshness of the smoke), but now it seems that he reaches a point after which his metabolism restricts further unfolding of the trip.

It should be mentioned that Shulghin tried IV bufotenine not only with zero psychoactivity but with very alarming side-effects as well. One can really ponder on his Tihkal accounts. IV should be as good as smoking if not better. But not in this case. Why did he only get body effects?

Shulghin used an oxalate salt for the bufotenine injections. This implies to me that bufotenine does not freebase rapidly in the blood so as to cross the BBB. Indeed with a blood pH of ~7.4 and a bufotenine pKa of 9.67 this is no big surprise. In this respect it appears that one really needs to smoke freebase bufotenine to make it go into the brain.

In any case, the high pKa of bufotenine and the IV experiments imply that it cannot linger in the blood for ages. It has to pass through the BBB as soon as possible. This is why it didnt' work for Shulghin but it did work for Ott. Even if Shulghin lacks the metabolic path to convert the bufotenine to the "elusive" active principle he should have gotten at least some visuals (like SWIM and others who find it unimpressive but admit it is still hallucinogenic/psychoactive)

If it get metabolised by something else (like the "elusive" active principle) this must be happening after bufotenine as such has crossed into the brain.

 

[burnt]

It seems some of us SWIMMERS might have an unusual tolerance to bufotenines effects. SWIM needs 20-30 mg to start having visuals and the material is basically pure (unless n-oxide is present which SWIM is going to imagine a solution to in near future).

 

[RigaCrypto]

SWIM has some that could not possibly contain anything else. His friend had it tested (he has a real lab at work) and it is at least 99.9% pure. A little xylene showed up, but nothing else.

It shows up as psilocin with the test used (apparently it can't tell the difference between psilocin and bufotenine).

Anyway, SWIM's produces fantastic visuals with as little as 6 mg. 10 mg produces intense CEVs. 30 mg is beyond anything SWIM can describe. It is utterly amazing.

What test was used? Is it certain that the substance is bufotenine? I think before speculating about the cause of variation in effects in different people's extraction results, it would be nice to know for sure what substance it is and its possible impurities.

Does the test used offer positive identification? If not, would you be willing to send a small quantity to a lab for GC/MS or other more specific tests?

 

[Infundibulum]

SWIM has some that could not possibly contain anything else. His friend had it tested (he has a real lab at work) and it is at least 99.9% pure. A little xylene showed up, but nothing else.

It shows up as psilocin with the test used (apparently it can't tell the difference between psilocin and bufotenine).

Anyway, SWIM's produces fantastic visuals with as little as 6 mg. 10 mg produces intense CEVs. 30 mg is beyond anything SWIM can describe. It is utterly amazing.

What test was used? Is it certain that the substance is bufotenine? I think before speculating about the cause of variation in effects in different people's extraction results, it would be nice to know for sure what substance it is and its possible impurities.

It is mass spectrometry, that's why it shows as psilocin. It would also show as 6-HO-dmt, or 7-HO-dmt or any other substance with identical molecular weight.

Does the test used offer positive identification? If not, would you be willing to send a small quantity to a lab for GC/MS or other more specific tests?

I hope you're not serious here and I also think 69ron or SWIH wouldn't be willing either.

 

[burnt]

Yes SWIM will second that brown / tan / white powder extracted from cebil seeds is a substance with the exact same mass spectra as bufotenin. The only impurity SWIM observed was dmt. Cebil seeds also make a bit of it I think so its normal.

By mass spectrometry itself its difficult to determine the difference between bufotenin and psilocin. It it possible however. It really depends on how good your library searching algorithms are or how skilled you are in interpreting mass spectra. Mainly the ratio of ions can give it away because the difference in hydroxyl position will slightly change fragmentation patterns. MS/MS techniques can also help.

Although based on retention time in the column you can more easily tell the difference.

 

[RigaCrypto]

Thanks. I was intrigued by the reports on this substance, but the large variation in reported effects made me wonder whether it might be another substance produced by a particular extraction technique or contained in a specific source material, so I wanted to ascertain what it is. If it is certain that it is bufotenine, I will set out to extract it myself. It certainly sounds like something special, if the results are reproducible.

 

[endlessness]

I suggest doing it with FASA and then freebase and doing the naphtha/acetone clean up.. its the only way that worked for me... btw, expect some very nasty nausea from bufotenin...

 

[burnt]

I was intrigued by the reports on this substance, but the large variation in reported effects made me wonder whether it might be another substance produced by a particular extraction technique or contained in a specific source material, so I wanted to ascertain what it is. If it is certain that it is bufotenine, I will set out to extract it myself.

One thing that cannot be claimed with certainty yet is that the n oxide is not present. This may depend on seed batches, extraction techniques, were just not sure if its present or not at this point.

 

[Oncewas]

its a scam guys seriously.

 

[RigaCrypto]

I suggest doing it with FASA and then freebase and doing the naphtha/acetone clean up.. its the only way that worked for me... btw, expect some very nasty nausea from bufotenin...

Would Ondansetron alleviate the nausea? I've read reports of it being effective against psychedelic-induced nausea.

Ondansetron - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[endlessness]

you can try.. I personally dont like taking pharmaceuticals, unless I had some serious disease or something where it was strictly necessary. I'd rather not give my money to this big industry which lacks any real ethics, and I dont really trust their safety. If I wanted nausea-reducing substance, I would go for ginger, it also has a 5-HT3 antagonist. As pointed out by Samadhi-Sukha-Upekkha in this thread, apparently you need to swallow the ginger (or extract) itself and not make a tea because the desired substance is not water-soluble

That being said, Im not sure how effective 5-HT3 antagonists are in reducing nausea from vaporized bufotenine. Ginger is definitely effective reducing nausea from orally ingested psychedelics, as there is 5-HT3 signalling in the guts. You can try it, though, and dont forget to let us know how it turned out!