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White Vinegar/ Sodium Carbonate A/B Questions

Migrated topic.


Rising Star
If i were to use white vinegar for step one of an a/b tek instead of using muratic acid or something more potent, is it recommemded that i dilute the vinegar? Or am i to understand that the more acidic it is, the better?

EDIT - What are the ratios of not only water/vinegar(if any), but solution/gramsMHRB?

EDIT - Sorry, I just cant seem to stop coming up with questions... Does using using a low percentage acid like white vinegar change the length of time that you want to let your bark soak? Does it change the number of times you want to extract an acid solutio from your original bark? And finally, what impact does this have on heat? Am i to assume that heat is good no matter what kind of acid im using? More? Less?
Thanks for the answer....

....follow up question.

SWIM now currently has 50g powderded MHRB soaking in 400ml of 50% white vinegar and 50% water. Its been set on the stove in a pot of water on the low setting. It does not boil but small bubbles do appear on the sides of the pot and jar. From tek to tek the soak times vary, especially in the latter soaks. Though the bark is soaking, SWIM hasnt yet purchased the supplies for the next phase (i.e. funnel, filters, ect), so this soak must stay in the jar at least 24 hours. I dont forsee that to be a problem since some teks advise soaking up to a week in some cases. My real question is, would prolonged exposure in the acid wash (as in a week plus) do any sort of damage to the DMT or the final product? Would there eventually be any breakdown of the chemical or a loss in yeild? Also, is there a specific target range for the heat SWIM would want to simmer the soak at?

Edit - Also, the pH test strips SWIM bought appear to be junk. Maybe because they were designed for use with pool water. Because its so hard to get an accurate pH reading, its really hard to tell where im at. All SWIM knows is they used equal parts 5% white vinegar, to water. Do you think this is enough to reach ph4? Its very important that i know because during the basifying step SWIM plans on using sodium carbonate instead of NaOH. The only catch with this that ive read is that a proper acid wash at the right pH levels is needed for sodium carbonate to work, and STB is just out of the question.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Next question deals with boildown/evap...

SWIM has heard many people from many different tek mention that in some cases they boil down or reduce thier liquid between steps. SWIM heard of this done before the basification steps, and also heard of this done with the naptha before the freeze precipitation. SWIM only asks because he estimates that with at least three pulls of 400ml each (minus the small loss of yeild he is sure to get) he might end up with at least 1000ml of liquid to work with. SWIM is working out of 32oz mason jars so this seems a little much. SOOOO... boildown/evap? Or no? If so, at which step?

Also, if SWIM ends up with that much acid solution after the three pulls, he may divide it up between maybe two or three jars and do each basification/extraction seperately. He feels this will aid not only in the learning process since this is his first extraction (practice makes perfect), also, if he were to fuck up one of the latter steps we would still have 35-50 percent of this liquid left to try again. Does this all sound pheasable? Does that acid solution have a shelf life of basically forever?
Sounds good.

How far down should he boil it? Half the original volume? A quarter?

About how much sodium carbonate do you expect SWIM will need to basify to the proper pH? I expect since SWIM went heavy on the vinegar it will require more. What sort of equations would He use to figure out a ballpark starting amount? He figures the amount of acid solution hes starting with will also affect the calculations.

Should he create a sodium carbonate/water mixture, and THEN add that to that acid, or can he add the powder straight to the acid?
Uhhh... i dont know. This is SWIMs first extraction attempt. Doing alot of research on the topic alot of the teks out there were using 50g as the example, so i figgured it would be easier to follow. where SWIM purchased the bark the quantities were:

56g - $22 US
228 - $66
1 Kilo - $160

He just thought he would start small for the first attempt.

What is the average yeild for an A/B using 50g MHRB?

Speaking of the subject, SWIM assumes that since most people who post on this forum extract frequently with large amounts of MHRB, if any body has any accounts of unwanted attention being drawn to them for purchasing large quantities on a regular basis...
Upon further research, SWIM just recieved a pride-obliterating bitchslap...

SWIM mentioned to me that he was taking the sodium carbonate route because, regardless of what everyone says, he cannot find straight lye in his town to save his life...

..however, he fully planned on using naptha as the solvent. apparenetly since the pH is too low using the sodium carbonate, naptha wont do.

What are his other options? I know DCM is good but i cant seem to find it either. Someone mentioned using MEK and SWIM said he saw that right next to the naptha when he was shopping. What is MEK and would this work using sodium carbonte? Does the tek differ? Use the same as you would naptha?
No. Though sodium carbonate is very basic, its not as basic as sodium hyroxide. it wont drop the pH low enough for naptha to soak up the dmt. must find another solvent.
Ahh my bad. I got my pH scale mixed up. Its all semantics though, dosnt change my point. Naptha wont work with sodium carbonate. I need a solvent that DMT is more soluable in. DCM works best but its not readily available in my area. MEK is though. I need more info on a A/B tek that uses sodium carbonate and possibly MEK or another solvent other than naptha.
Topic: Sodium Carbonate + STB?
69ron Posted: Friday, December 19, 2008 7:30:57 PM
Any tech that is sodium carbonate based that uses naphtha or heptane and water will give you very crappy results. You'll need to use DCM, chloroform, diethyl ether, or something else that DMT is more soluble in if you're going to use sodium carbonate. If you're using naphtha or heptane, you'll need to use sodium hydroxide or possibly potassium hydroxide.
people who have trouble finding DCM should distill jasco stripper to get yourself some DCM, you can get it easy at many hardware stores.

Get some thin copper tubing. Get yourself a glass bottle that you can fit ice though the neck, I use old mango juice glass bottles. Wrap the copper tubing around the bottle.

get yourself a drillbit slightly smaller than your copper tubing.

DCM has a very low boiling point, and its not flammable, it says so right on the side of the can. Drill a hole in the top of your Jasco stripper can, and wiggle your copper tubing into the hole, you'll have to carefully adjust the size of your hole to get it to fit. Solder your copper tubing in place, careful not to break the seal when moving it around. I actually did this though the cap so I can just switch cans later.

Get yourself a pyrex or metal baking pan. set it on top of the range or hotplate, put like 3 inches of water in it and put it on a rather low setting warming the water. use a baking thermometer to measure the tempeture Get the water tempeture around 110.

Ok so your setup should look like this - jasco stripper can with copper tube out that is spiraled around a glass bottle filled with ice that the tube then leads though a hole in the cap of another glass bottle.

you place the jasco stipper can in the water bath, moniter the tempeture with a baking thermometer and it distills the dcm out of the can, condenses it in the cold coil and then into the bottle. Make sure gravity is working in your favor to have it dripping down into your end bottle.

DCM has a boiling point of around 104, which is significantly lower than the boiling points of the other components in jasco stripper. Remember. DCM is heavyer than water,so you can use that knowledge to test it. The first time I did this, I was all freaked that I was gonna blow up my house.. but then I read up on it and found out that its not even flammable, not to mention it boils at such a low tempeture i can put my hand directly on the can and feel that its not even that hot.

btw always let your sodium carbonate reactions cool before you add your DCM.... The heat from the reaction can boil it.

When using sodium carbonate in an A/B the liquid increase to get the sodium carbonate to disolve is very annoying.

Is this just for SWIM?

He ended up using NaOH just to get the ph high enough without increasing the volume of liquid to much. It was already fairly unmanageable.
s8championjgh said:
soulfood said:

When using sodium carbonate in an A/B the liquid increase to get the sodium carbonate to disolve is very annoying.

Is this just for SWIM?

He ended up using NaOH just to get the ph high enough without increasing the volume of liquid to much. It was already fairly unmanageable.
That has happened to my freind's cat. Quite annoying.

+3. Sodium carbonate is viable maybe only for masochists due to enormous volume of H20 needed (week base+solubility).
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