Why DMT Scares Me

[AstralRoots]

Ya know, there are those that want to disparage the potential authenticity of online relationships. I've grown so close to so many people here, sharing things I don't share irl. It's a very beautiful thing.


What's the harm in making it? You still gotta smoalk it.

One thing I like to do is have my changa pipe filled to the brim while on light pharma, taking small hits as I please.

Start small and work your way up. Harmalas kind of allow DMT to stack up in your system so you can ease your way to your desired depth.


Indeed I have my friend... my first three were in the same night about 15 years ago.

One love

That is wonderful, the Internet is a web that can connect or divide.

Haha. That is true!! Ahh, I could see how that could be extremely useful.

My main oral go solo as written about naturally had a point of desiring more. Taking more through smoalk instead of having to eat more could be a righteous way to explore.

Yes, I recall a second night of aya proving to require less to get higher. In fact, I was rocked heavily be the medicine the second night.

I am so fascinated by the unique qualities of mh say vs ac. Bc vs chacruna. Syrian rue alone has its own personality. Then there's my own psyche not to mention the at least dozen archetypes at the table which can have their own voices.

69ron has a weird post that has several quotes from members over the years suggesting mimosa and acacia are far less desirable than b caapi. However for me thus far acacia seems quite lovely as does of course s. Rue. The thread also suggests rue should be avoided for some non resonate reasoning. Anyways, I digress.

Take care as always

 

[Voidmatrix]

I had planned to smoalk a small amount of changa today. I still plan to, but I'm tired and nervous... scared.

As such, it seems a good idea to do a little dance with @Panpsychic revolving around this comment they made, and show some vulnerability while doing so:

I tend to see that being into Psychedelics is itself "off the beaten path", although that is lessening to an extent with the whole renaissance and more mainstream involvement of people who wouldn't otherwise have been into it. DMT even more so, as it is generally seen as more niche and hardcore even amongst psychedelic users.

Here's a primarily subconscious way in which I think about some of this stuff. Of the people that are interested in DMT, I tend to assume that many (in my subconsious, a majority) have "breakthrough" experiences at their leisure and that a great many have been doing so for a long period of time. This idea comes from having seen a few people state something about daily use or a certain amount of "breakthrough." In a natural way, there is a bit of a comparison. It's a comparison that reflects natural ways in which we learn, not to develop value judgments. It's like seeing you peers being able to do something and so think that you should be able to do it too. It's how we gauge standards for ourselves and it's largely subconscious. With regard to the topic at hand, this is one of the reasons that I feel weak and cowardly. This is compounded by the fact that I've had some very very high dose experiences in the past, so it's also a subconscious comparison to my past self in ways.

However, let's point out some flaws in the above. 1. Not that many people are really into psychedelics, let alone one like DMT (NN-DMT in this case). 2. As such of those that are doing DMT, many aren't regular journeyers (such as daily or several times week) regardless of dose. 3. There's a reason that there are resource threads on this very forum that revolve around the fear generated by this substance. 4. Many of my subconscious observations are in error.

What's also funny is that it is really hard for me to gain confidence from past successful experience and overcoming adversity. There's so little credit given. Here's an example. I weigh about 145lbs. My current max deadlift is 425lbs. Now while there should be some nervousness from lifting such a weight, my experience often times involves very pure doubt. It's as though every other successful time I've lifted heavy weight was a fluke and I need to prove it to myself again that I can do.

This is how it is with psychedelics as well. Seemingly always restarting at square 1. It's not until I'm in the space and employing skills that I have that I recognize that these skills are there. I just forget the good. The feeling it provides fizzles away quickly the fizz of a soda.

All in all, we're really just looking at a divide with myself. A divide I've been mending a long time. A divide that DMT and harmalas help me mend by growing closer with them.

Now I can go smaolk a little.

One love

 

[Voidmatrix]

Okay now that I've taken the journey, I can say a little more of what I was thinking, though it's escaping me again. Been happening a lot lately.

Something else that's weird and conveys much the same ideas that have been covered, and related to what was previously mentioned with regards to comparisons, I tend to only make upward comparisons that "mean" anything to me (another subconscious action that I watch and watch it's impacts but have a hard time doing anything about); it's very one-sided in that the action (comparison) only serves to enforce feelings of ineptitude...

Back to deadlifting as an example. I don't think about how many people can deadlift as much as I can pound for pound, which ought to make me feel good. Nope, I can really only be impacted by the idea that there are individuals in my weight class that still trump me. And it's not to say that I'm not adequate because of that, nor do I feel like I need to try to catch up to them or anything, but it does prevent me from giving myself much credit, simply because I could be better. It's more related to humility, but it's as if it's just humility and no... pride I guess.

I like doing muscle-ups. The most I've ever done in a row is 8 and I had to kip the last two. My goal is 10. The fact that I can do them at all many seem to find "impressive." However, I'm not impressed because I can't do 10 strict ones in a row... :lol:

Another example. I am a psychedelic guide at a psychedelic center. There are other guides. We all do psychedelics. Yet I seem to be the "crazy" or "wild" one, due to responses received when I share my solitary journey frequency, certain dosages, and how I like mixing medicines. Now, do I think that my fellow guides are "cowards?" Not in the slightest. The thought doesn't even cross my mind. That's especially reserved for me... "I'm a coward."

In a deep way I am a jester/trickster.

Sometimes we're the jester/trickster to ourselves. I've fallen for my own trick for about 8 years now in specific ways... I say 8 years because that's about how long this inner impediment of journeying as deep as I'd like has been going on.

One love

 

[Voidmatrix]

Let's have a little bit more fun with this. It's on my mind, lets unpack the hell out of it.

I have been sleeping horribly lately. Today while sitting in the shower I figured why not push myself to have a little morning journey...

I think I need to do this more often.

This experience did have me reflect on something further. So DMT scares me right? Even at low doses right? Why? Well again, I disobey the set requirement and so many a journey can be fraught with the inside of my own mind eating me alive. Sometimes it'll be thought loops that I must ride out after I can't break them. Other times it can be an engulfment of random things I find bothersome. At which point, I then go round and round assessing why such things are seen as bothersome, what I can do with myself about it etc.

Simply, even low dose tends to be a great deal of work, especially shadow work for me. But that's also me focusing on merely one aspect. There's feel good stuff too, but the work tends to take up most of my attention. This can even happen when I have visuals all up in my face, but am still immersed and interacting more with the mental aspect.

I tend to forget that I've seen many people mention how they can't handle low dose, or sub breakthroughs, that there is something jarring and splitting about it... am I torturing myself? Probably.

Maybe, overall, this is just "objectively" hard.

One love

 

[Panpsychic]

Here's a primarily subconscious way in which I think about some of this stuff. Of the people that are interested in DMT, I tend to assume that many (in my subconsious, a majority) have "breakthrough" experiences at their leisure and that a great many have been doing so for a long period of time. This idea comes from having seen a few people state something about daily use or a certain amount of "breakthrough." In a natural way, there is a bit of a comparison. It's a comparison that reflects natural ways in which we learn, not to develop value judgments. It's like seeing you peers being able to do something and so think that you should be able to do it too. It's how we gauge standards for ourselves and it's largely subconscious. With regard to the topic at hand, this is one of the reasons that I feel weak and cowardly. This is compounded by the fact that I've had some very very high dose experiences in the past, so it's also a subconscious comparison to my past self in ways.

However, let's point out some flaws in the above. 1. Not that many people are really into psychedelics, let alone one like DMT (NN-DMT in this case). 2. As such of those that are doing DMT, many aren't regular journeyers (such as daily or several times week) regardless of dose. 3. There's a reason that there are resource threads on this very forum that revolve around the fear generated by this substance. 4. Many of my subconscious observations are in error.

I would add that its highly questionable those who makes claims like "I have had X amount of breakthroughs". According to who abd by what measure? Its a very subjective thing, but the comparison and 'competing' mindset is one of the real downsides and totally wrong for use of these sacraments.

Julian Palmer, for all the flak he gets regards being either the originator/just the namer of Changa has a good quote on this where he said:

"The DMT breakthrough is so overwhelming its not something most people want to do more than once or a handful of times in their lives"

This is a direct quote as I recall and I remember in particular the part about "once or a handful of times".

So yeah, this doesn't square with some guy on reddit writing "I have over 100 breakthroughs on DMT and its wild" - no bud, you most likely didnt, and your interpretation of what that is, is very different.

Furthemore there is the factor I mentioned before about safety beliefs. It genuinly surprises me how many people hold to a materialist perspective regards the DMT and psychedelic experience, and this is primarily coming from fear as I see it.

"Its just my brain on drugs, seeing pretty things. There may be a 'sense of God' but its just chemical interactions. There may be a 'sense of Eternity' but its not to be really seen that way just my brain making it up".

This to me, is a cowardly approach of the ego mind thats trying to cling to its familiar frameworks and denying the reality of the experience on its own terms. Accepting that there is an experience of God and Eternity because thats what you are actually apprehending, takes far more courage than trying to minimize and rationalize it later based on mundane and limited views and assumptions.

I am not a casual psychedelic user. I frequently do LSD doses of 350-400ug which are considered high by most standards, and have even smoked DMT on an acid peak a few times.
I also exclusively smoke DMT after drinking Harmalas, and aside from a host of benefits like extending and deepening the experience, requiring less material, and having its own character, it also makes it in my opinion not something really comparable to the straight freebase which is what most people are referring to with regards 'breakthrough'.
I also dont experience entities but almost always degress of "God consciousness".

I find this combo tough, and I don't take it lightly. The last thing I want to be concerned with at that time is some comparison with what I think I'm supposed to be able to do to detract from the Glory of the Experience.

 

[MAGMA17]

Furthemore there is the factor I mentioned before about safety beliefs. It genuinly surprises me how many people hold to a materialist perspective regards the DMT and psychedelic experience, and this is primarily coming from fear as I see it.

"Its just my brain on drugs, seeing pretty things. There may be a 'sense of God' but its just chemical interactions. There may be a 'sense of Eternity' but its not to be really seen that way just my brain making it up".

This to me, is a cowardly approach of the ego mind thats trying to cling to its familiar frameworks and denying the reality of the experience on its own terms. Accepting that there is an experience of God and Eternity because thats what you are actually apprehending, takes far more courage than trying to minimize and rationalize it later based on mundane and limited views and assumptions.

Don't you think you're being a little too harsh towards these people? what should be done? accept losing your mind? I too had a period like this, and I self-induced it to protect my mental health.

Is it better to become schizophrenic as a matter of "being brave"?

Since you say that those who have had 100 breakthroughs have never really had one, I can tell you that if your mind has never been forced to see everything in a material way perhaps you have never really had a deep existential crisis.

 

[Voidmatrix]

I would add that its highly questionable those who makes claims like "I have had X amount of breakthroughs". According to who abd by what measure? Its a very subjective thing, but the comparison and 'competing' mindset is one of the real downsides and totally wrong for use of these sacraments.

I agree, but, due to "trauma" my subconscious still uses it as a sort of metric because I'm full of self-doubt. I know it's a fallacy, and it's good to call myself out.

The DMT breakthrough is so overwhelming its not something most people want to do more than once or a handful of times in their lives"

Two things. Here's when my upward comparison parameter can be seen, because while I agree with him on a conscious level, there's then a part of me that thinks certain depths are more widespread Second, I'm stubborn.

Furthemore there is the factor I mentioned before about safety beliefs. It genuinly surprises me how many people hold to a materialist perspective regards the DMT and psychedelic experience, and this is primarily coming from fear as I see it.

"Its just my brain on drugs, seeing pretty things. There may be a 'sense of God' but its just chemical interactions. There may be a 'sense of Eternity' but its not to be really seen that way just my brain making it up".

Again, in agreement, but I'll extend it a step further to say that any attribution of a "side" is a type of safety blanket also, considering the mysterious nature of DMT. This is a reason why I have a polyvalent approach in describing many of my experiences.

I also exclusively smoke DMT after drinking Harmalas, and aside from a host of benefits like extending and deepening the experience, requiring less material, and having its own character, it also makes it in my opinion not something really comparable to the straight freebase which is what most people are referring to with regards 'breakthrough'.
I also dont experience entities but almost always degress of "God consciousness".

I find this combo tough, and I don't take it lightly. The last thing I want to be concerned with at that time is some comparison with what I think I'm supposed to be able to do to detract from the Glory of the Experience

This is very interesting. In my experience vaporhuasca/changa can have its own flavor and be noncomparable while other times it's like freebase on overdrive.

I also don't always experience entities, but they like to show up even in low dose forays. Sometimes I'm somewhere that has no features. Other times I'm connected with what one might call "God consciousness." Then there are times where...

I will say that these comparisons aren't what trips me up while I'm doing the work. They trip me up outside the space only because I'm used to feeling inept and inferior. Simple as that.

Again @Panpsychic i thank you for your understanding and encouragement. I see what youre doing.
One love

 

[Panpsychic]

Again, in agreement, but I'll extend it a step further to say that any attribution of a "side" is a type of safety blanket also, considering the mysterious nature of DMT. This is a reason why I have a polyvalent approach in describing many of my experiences.

Can you elaborate on your 'polyvalent' approach as it sounds interesting.
DMT and Harmalas are definitely a mystery, which is why part of their beauty is they doesn't fit neatly into any recognized framework although some are far closer to others in describing "reality" as I see it so those viewpoints will allow one to interface more with what is being shown.

Don't you think you're being a little too harsh towards these people? what should be done? accept losing your mind? I too had a period like this, and I self-induced it to protect my mental health.

Is it better to become schizophrenic as a matter of "being brave"?

Since you say that those who have had 100 breakthroughs have never really had one, I can tell you that if your mind has never been forced to see everything in a material way perhaps you have never really had a deep existential crisis.

Possibly yes, and if so its not my intention to pull out that safey blanket but at least recognize it for what it is rather than some who channel that fear by doing doctrates about it...

Certain traditional spiritual views are straight out wacky if you really try to comprehend them and in fact one is warned against doing so as it will potentially lead to mental despair...so I agree trying to grasp such potential truths as they are revealed on psychedelics can be detrimental if grasped wrongly.
I have experienced almost losing my mind before even on high dose LSD by seeing 'too much' into what may be facets of reality that are normally hidden.

I recall one time getting a sense, which is aligned with Eastern and other spiritual beliefs, that time and life has no ultimate beginning, and that we have lived before, and before, and before, and before...it goes on and on and on ad infinitum.... universes and worlds and lives chained together like a tesselating beginningless stream which means we are always right here presently experiencing but there may be no first point to this.... I could sense my mind starting to crack at grasping this viscerally and the retreat to "its just you in this one identity and life to focus on" was a safety valve.

So I agree a materialist brain chemistry view can likewise be a sobering perspective that may be needed at times for some, just recognize it for what it is.

 

[Voidmatrix]

Can you elaborate on your 'polyvalent' approach as it sounds interesting.

Certainly. I suppose it began its development after my first three experiences, all in the same night, all of them turned my being and orientation in life inside out.
Is the experience a byproduct of our own minds while this molecule and other molecules interact with our biological system, ie, is it all in our heads.
Is the experience a transcendence of mind "to" somewhere else, ie, does the experience entail us interacting with things external to us (external in the sense that you are external to me, or how my computer is external to me, or how Paris is external to me).
Is the experience often combinations and permutations of the other two?
Naturally there are powerful philosophical implications to all of these.
As such, I keep all of these in mind when I journey and use them as tools of discernment.
There are times where it seems like it's just me in the space on "drugs" for lack of a a better way of saying it.
There are other times where it seems/feels that I have gone and am moving someplace else and that no part of it is coming from my mind.
There are also times where it seems like I'm adding to a space that is external to me.
Then there are times in which the space seems to "scan" me before unravelling the space, and this "scanning" was necessary so that the space could present itself to me in a certain way, either as a way to comfort me with what it wants to show, or as some kind of collaborative project between the space and myself.
Then, there are times in which I am having more than one experience at once. The space will provide something completely external to me to move through and interact, but at the same time forces me into my own mind too where there is big interaction and connection with self. To compound this, sometimes it will let me move through several disparate spaces at once while shoving me into my mind in more than one way on more than one level.
Much of this can happen with my low dose experiences and forays.
As a result, each experience is assessed on its own merit. Sometimes it's just me. Sometimes I'm somewhere completely alien. Sometimes its some mix between the two, and this third one is the real wild one as it can occur and resolve in copious ways.

One love

 

[Voidmatrix]

I should probably also add that there is decoupling from the phenomenology of the experience and what I think may be occurring. Hyperspace is the land of the jesters after all.

One love

 

[Voidmatrix]

Ya know, I'll keep spinning my wheels until I break the pattern/cycle and get to where I'm going.

Another thing I don't acknowledge and instead just assume I'm lacking in fortitude.

Again, I'm a guide at a center. I'm around lots of guides. I could have someone guide me and say, help me get deep into hyperspace. But I don't. I tend to not be guided by anyone else unless it's necessary for a training or if I am participating in a group ceremony. I also don't utilize other guides to help with integration or anything.

Why?

It can look like arrogance, but it's really a trial by fire I've been in since my teens.

And I'm stubborn.

Ya, it's not like it's unpleasant or anything to have a guide, but in some ways, for me at least, it's too easy...

I also find much more satisfaction (though it's always fleeting) when I guide and pull myself through the journey.

Also, as a guide, its one of my principles or maxims to guide oneself.

When I was younger, this was easier.

But this kind of approach makes psychedelics in general harder, for me anyway. I'm isolated and alone.

I'd be remiss to not also reflect that there's a part of me that doesn't really know how to ask for help. Another kindred part also doesn't like feeling or appearing needy (though I probably rarely am).

I have a bunch of new (to me) psychedelics to try, like 5-MEO-DMT, but have trepidation as I'll likely go about it alone. This just means that instead of how I moved into psychedelics in my 20s, at 36 I can start low and slow.

I can be a hard-ass, but I don't need to be that much of hard-ass. I've been at this a long time. I can take the pressure off.

One love

 

[Panpsychic]

Another thing I don't acknowledge and instead just assume I'm lacking in fortitude.

Again, I'm a guide at a center. I'm around lots of guides. I could have someone guide me and say, help me get deep into hyperspace. But I don't. I tend to not be guided by anyone else unless it's necessary for a training or if I am participating in a group ceremony. I also don't utilize other guides to help with integration or anything.

Why?

It can look like arrogance, but it's really a trial by fire I've been in since my teens.

And I'm stubborn.

Ya, it's not like it's unpleasant or anything to have a guide, but in some ways, for me at least, it's too easy...

I also find much more satisfaction (though it's always fleeting) when I guide and pull myself through the journey.

Also, as a guide, its one of my principles or maxims to guide oneself.

When I was younger, this was easier.

But this kind of approach makes psychedelics in general harder, for me anyway. I'm isolated and alone.

I'd be remiss to not also reflect that there's a part of me that doesn't really know how to ask for help. Another kindred part also doesn't like feeling or appearing needy (though I probably rarely am).

I have a bunch of new (to me) psychedelics to try, like 5-MEO-DMT, but have trepidation as I'll likely go about it alone. This just means that instead of how I moved into psychedelics in my 20s, at 36 I can start low and slow.

I can be a hard-ass, but I don't need to be that much of hard-ass. I've been at this a long time. I can take the pressure off.

One love

I'm very similar, in that I almost always trip alone and always have done, whether that be high dose acid, mushrooms or Smoked Somahuasca. Had a few precarious moments on high dose acid going solo where in hindsight it could hace gone badly but so far its always been good with near 20 years of tripping experience now.
I occasionally act as a sitter/guide for others but generally always guide myself.
Like you, I have access to 5-MEO but have thus far hesitated in that would likely do it alone also.

One thing that really has made me reconsider my position was guiding someone recently through a deep harmala tea then smoked DMT combo. This person wasnt particularly experienced with either although they have got experience with other psychs.
What struck me was how brazen they were to take a huge toke of strong Changa while on harmalas, and I mean just go for it. They then lay back and were gone for about 30 mins, and semi in another place for further 30 mins.
I realize that you can really just go for it when you know someone is there to watch over the physiological side, be it risk of vomit aspiration or flailing or whatever.
One will generally always hesitate a bit to go super deep by onself as you are always having to keep one eye or at least a certain amount of a sense of self awareness here to look out for yourself. So this made me realize that, while I like the solo journeying and also the sense of being ones own guide and watching over oneself, there is a place for having a trusted guide or sitter if one really wants to just launch and see how far one can go.

 

[Voidmatrix]

I'm very similar, in that I almost always trip alone and always have done, whether that be high dose acid, mushrooms or Smoked Somahuasca. Had a few precarious moments on high dose acid going solo where in hindsight it could hace gone badly but so far its always been good with near 20 years of tripping experience now.
I occasionally act as a sitter/guide for others but generally always guide myself.
Like you, I have access to 5-MEO but have thus far hesitated in that would likely do it alone also.

I think that may be what it is for me. I've never had a "bad" trip, but they simply changed and got harder. It happened a little less than 10 years ago. I lost a lot of confidence at that time. But there's been undue pressure as well...

Perhaps we'll both get to our 5-MEO-DMT this year

One thing that really has made me reconsider my position was guiding someone recently through a deep harmala tea then smoked DMT combo. This person wasnt particularly experienced with either although they have got experience with other psychs.
What struck me was how brazen they were to take a huge toke of strong Changa while on harmalas, and I mean just go for it. They then lay back and were gone for about 30 mins, and semi in another place for further 30 mins.
I realize that you can really just go for it when you know someone is there to watch over the physiological side, be it risk of vomit aspiration or flailing or whatever.
One will generally always hesitate a bit to go super deep by onself as you are always having to keep one eye or at least a certain amount of a sense of self awareness here to look out for yourself. So this made me realize that, while I like the solo journeying and also the sense of being ones own guide and watching over oneself, there is a place for having a trusted guide or sitter if one really wants to just launch and see how far one can go.

Aside from the physiological safety blanket also guide provides, there's also an energetic, symbolic, and conceptual bracing that occurs in the space. That's why who is guiding matters. It's like having another nervous system to lean on.

And you're probably right... it just feels so good in the longrun when I go it alone... is that my trauma talking?

Whenever I do extended state DMT (I'm not sure when, I just know I'll get to do it), I'll have a team around me. And I'll know all of them. I'm not as nervous for that.

One love