you need more dmt to get the message

[lsrvnt]

I was reading this interesting article called "Moving Into The Sacred World of DMT" by Nick Sand. If you haven't read it Its well worth a read. I came across an interesting quote that really puzzled me.

The proof of the pudding is that Strassman’s subjects have
formed a support group because they thought that they
might be losing their minds! What they need is an entirely
supportive environment and free access to more DMT so that
they can create their own sacred space away from government
agents and all of that paranoid and polluting programming
that occurs in “authorized” settings.

the need of more trips sounds counterintuitive to someone who may already be struggling to process what has already taken place.

He also speaks on how it is important not to waste an opportunity to allow this positive experience to take place. For those around us and those we love that could be the most important experience of their life, however there is a danger in DMT and I have seen the havoc it can cause. My friend recently has gone mad from the substance and is loosing their connection to love and sanity. he has been having outbursts of madness in the middle of their collage classes insulting the whole class. he will not be able to stay in school if he cannot return some level of sanity.

I am making him a trip in the form of art work in hopes that it might communicate better than my words with him which ill share asap.

even shamans from native cultures still loose people some of the time. What are peoples thoughts about sending loved ones and friends deeper into the experience can we justify such positive growth experiences and change with the possible negative impact?

 

[FranLover]

Hello my fellow traveler!

I think that the string of thought that leads to the thinking "my cousin Jenna could really use DMT" comes from the chattering of the brain and not lovingness, but when I think every one who needs DMT will find it by themselves I feel that that thought comes from a dignified lovingness, because I am giving the other person full responsibility, not entering the psychological role play of Rescuer (Source; The Triangle of Victim, Rescuer, Persecutor - What It Is and How to Get Out. - Linda Graham)

Not everyone is meant for DMT because to love is so rare. To be full of love is not common. And if you are not full of love you are full of fear. In order to leap into the unkown there must be a solid base, a connection to conciousness.

Going crazy you say? It seems like DMT is a problem for such a person. People create their own suffering. And speculating, one could say that the suffering is a false path; a psychological script for such a person to live out a life story. After intense psychdelics they are no longer a nobody, but a person who has seen amazing things and now are...haunted by it.

This would be a way for a person to continue down a destructive path, as known in transactional analysis as a life story, the decision they made of who they are and what their conditioned "destiny" is. Most people live out a conditioned destiny, as recorded in a million history books on glorified war generals, suffering artists, alcoholics, etc; this is a life script.

 

[Psilosopher?]

If i'm not mistaken, the Nexus sounds exactly what Mr Sand is talking about. Except we have sought out our own support, not only with dealing with the experience, but also with the horticulture and phytochemistry. If anything, the Nexus is even bigger and better than just the "support group".

I too have had an acquaintance that was not ready for DMT, but was extremely insistent on having a trip. So i facilitated a very, very low dose for him. He was and still is mentally unstable, with raging ego issues, and i thought that a powerful psychedelic like DMT might throw him off the edge. DMT isn't for everyone.

 

[DmnStr8]

What is the message?

Your friend may have had some issues that were brought up with DMT and he is having a difficult time integrating his experience. These experiences are very powerful and can lead to unexpected reactions in people. Each person that enters into these experiences must take full responsibility for the choice ingest DMT. If this person made the choice to have the experience and is now struggling in some form, he is responsible.

Sounds like this person does need some support and doesn't know how or doesn't want to ask for help. The experience could have brought up some core anger(fear) issues and now he has to deal with it. He may be choosing to deal with all this on his own. It can be hard to talk about what happens during these experiences. It can, one, be hard to put into words and, two, can be highly personal. Both could deter someone from proper integration and seeking support.

One thought is that this person is going through the motions and could quite possibly come out of this in a positive way. Some things just take time. This guy may need to rearrange and reprioritize his entirely life. He could have been living in a negative way and now that is shining bright for him to see. Hard to say what exactly the issues is unless it comes from the horses mouth. Have you tried talking to him about this?

 

[lsrvnt]

Hello my fellow traveler!

I think that the string of thought that leads to the thinking "my cousin Jenna could really use DMT" comes from the chattering of the brain and not lovingness, but when I think every one who needs DMT will find it by themselves I feel that that thought comes from a dignified lovingness, because I am giving the other person full responsibility, not entering the psychological role play of Rescuer (Source; The Triangle of Victim, Rescuer, Persecutor - What It Is and How to Get Out. - Linda Graham)

Not everyone is meant for DMT because to love is so rare. To be full of love is not common. And if you are not full of love you are full of fear. In order to leap into the unkown there must be a solid base, a connection to conciousness.

Going crazy you say? It seems like DMT is a problem for such a person. People create their own suffering. And speculating, one could say that the suffering is a false path; a psychological script for such a person to live out a life story. After intense psychdelics they are no longer a nobody, but a person who has seen amazing things and now are...haunted by it.

This would be a way for a person to continue down a destructive path, as known in transactional analysis as a life story, the decision they made of who they are and what their conditioned "destiny" is. Most people live out a conditioned destiny, as recorded in a million history books on glorified war generals, suffering artists, alcoholics, etc; this is a life script.

yes thank you so much for the article I found it very illuminating. It reminds me of another part of the article where nick speaks on the levels of which dmt can be intentionally used. He says that to cure and to save are still very low levels of conscious use because you are still focusing on the negative but when used in the mindset of adding positive energy and levels of positive experience is the best way because it is using the psychedelic at its highest energy potential.

much love!

 

[PsyDuckmonkey]

I wouldn't "send" anyone near DMT. I'm not a shaman... and even if I was a shaman, I'd probably rather chase and scare away anyone who wants to travel... and if they persisted to the point of getting on my nerves, then I'd teach them how to travel safely.

Pestering people who hurt themselves with psychedlics with stuff like "you just need another hit" is rather irresponsible. Another hit may heal them. Or it might break them. They will have to decide for themselves. Don't hold knowledge back, but you don't want to make decisions for anyone. You don't want to be the person who "made them" take any psychedelic, let alone DMT.

 

[lsrvnt]

What is the message?

Your friend may have had some issues that were brought up with DMT and he is having a difficult time integrating his experience. These experiences are very powerful and can lead to unexpected reactions in people. Each person that enters into these experiences must take full responsibility for the choice ingest DMT. If this person made the choice to have the experience and is now struggling in some form, he is responsible.

Sounds like this person does need some support and doesn't know how or doesn't want to ask for help. The experience could have brought up some core anger(fear) issues and now he has to deal with it. He may be choosing to deal with all this on his own. It can be hard to talk about what happens during these experiences. It can, one, be hard to put into words and, two, can be highly personal. Both could deter someone from proper integration and seeking support.

One thought is that this person is going through the motions and could quite possibly come out of this in a positive way. Some things just take time. This guy may need to rearrange and reprioritize his entirely life. He could have been living in a negative way and now that is shining bright for him to see. Hard to say what exactly the issues is unless it comes from the horses mouth. Have you tried talking to him about this?

The last time I saw him the threatened my life on a whim of a joke. He was vibrating and yelling his points rather than just speaking with me. I found that he had unleashed a negative trickster side of himself that possibly he encountered in hyperspace. I have tried talking to him however the only way we can still communicate is through art strangely enough.

I know that he will come down off of the crazy high he is on now and thats when I will give him the piece of art ive been making as I don't want him to have a negative reaction to it. I think above all it was his set and the setting we chose that produced the negative effects.

Nick sand says that he was able to create a portable temple with just a candle and a handkerchief however I wonder if this is truly enough. I think it may be the case that a physical temple space may be the only option in the future as we are going to need cultural guidance when entering this experience.

If i'm not mistaken, the Nexus sounds exactly what Mr Sand is talking about. Except we have sought out our own support, not only with dealing with the experience, but also with the horticulture and phytochemistry. If anything, the Nexus is even bigger and better than just the "support group".

I think that the nexus is a wonderful start but in order to progress into a better way of encountering dmt I think that we need to move away from support groups in order to deal with and provide damage control for incomprehensible experiences and into spaces dedicated to a form of use that help us all the way through till we get what we need from the experience and are able to move on. I think its interesting as well because the nexus has become the entheogenic university that nick sand dreamed of it just lacks a physical presence in the world because of political reasons.

I think however an architecture that could facilitate this experience is is becoming something that is a problem that cannot be sweept under the rug forever. There are places out there already facilitating ayahuasca/dmt experiences in the United States under churches like NAC and UDV. If there is a focus on healing and curing then maybe we are missing the point and maybe it will soon be time to speak up and start the hard process of dmts use in our culture becoming recognized as a legitimate spiritual practice.

until the ideal method to have this experience is also the most easily available dmt will be another drug on the street used most commonly in a non sacred non ideal way.

this is really a food for thought post i am not suggesting a meet up of any sort or any physical gathering take place thanks for reading

 

[Jees]

...Nick Sand. If you haven't read it Its well worth a read. I came across an interesting quote that really puzzled me...

He might be one of the most experienced people in the matter. When I read him I try to tune in on what exactly he could be meaning, without turning his words ( = linguistic limited means of communication) into a blanc generalization.

For example when he said that DMT is a healer and a curer, I think that this expression needs a wider framework to see such as true, not just more dose more trip for the sake of it, and with framework I mean a whole shebang not just the puff itself.

When Nick Sand knew your friend he might been able to pull him trough by placing him in the centre of the ideal framework for a period of time. But without the fins, rockets do weird things. I think Nick Sands knew about fins, and also about persons where no fins fit on.

Just some thoughts..

 

[Jees]

...Nick sand says that he was able to create a portable temple with just a candle and a handkerchief however I wonder if this is truly enough...

Good that you wonder (and a very fine example)!

Did he say anyone has enough with a candle and a handkerchief?
No.
Did he say he never needs more than that?
No.
I think he was mere anecdotal and not on a mission telling people how easy it all is, for example he advised fasting 2 days before embarking, who of us do that?
This is how I try to "read" him and clear from generalization.

I could be seriously wrong, just trying to make an angle where things seem more fitting.

 

[lsrvnt]

I wouldn't "send" anyone near DMT. I'm not a shaman... and even if I was a shaman, I'd probably rather chase and scare away anyone who wants to travel... and if they persisted to the point of getting on my nerves, then I'd teach them how to travel safely.

Pestering people who hurt themselves with psychedlics with stuff like "you just need another hit" is rather irresponsible. Another hit may heal them. Or it might break them. They will have to decide for themselves. Don't hold knowledge back, but you don't want to make decisions for anyone. You don't want to be the person who "made them" take any psychedelic, let alone DMT.

truth!:thumb_up: . I think being a shaman is a hard role to take and one that we really dont have the cultural license to participate in yet. I do want people to have these experiences because I think its very important that we culturally shift back into connection with spirit but I agree with you the only way people come to that connection is on there own.

 

[PsyDuckmonkey]

I re-read the Nick Sand article, and have a few thoughts about it... It really, really reads like something from a war veteran who's still fighting in his head. Which, I guess, is pretty close to objective truth. These big name psychedelic pioneers fought an actual war, and were seriously scarred.

I believe it is a bad approach to try and continue the war. Making the future of our tribe dependent on decriminalization, legalization, acceptance, etc. is the wrong approach in my view. While I don't agree with the gross rejection of rationality in the article, I, too, think that trying to make psychedelics 'acceptable' to widespread society is somewhat missing the point. I remember talking to people here on the Nexus a year or two ago, about whether some kind of 'government license' should be required to use psychedelics. Well, sorry, but fuck no.

Following on the Temporary Autonomous Zone theory of Hakim Bey, it's not a 'revolution' that we need, but a continuous, unbroken chain of 'uprisings'.

Reading list:
T.A.Z.: The Temporary Autonomous Zone, Ontological Anarchy, Poetic Terrorism
Against Legalization
(Note that Hakim Bey's occasional comments around pederasty -some found in the T.A.Z. writeup- are extremely controversial, but I find that this controversy doesn't affect the wide validity of his Anarchist theories.)

An uprising is a temporary festival of freedom. It doesn't aim to become a revolution, to build a state and an oppressive apparatus of its own. It's a Saturnalia, a time outside time, a space outside space. The controlling powers of the world do not care about the uprising as long as it's not visible. This is fundamentally different from the dig-our-heels-in warlike attitude of revolutionaries like Nick Sand or Timothy Leary.

What I see as the proper way forward is a million secret societies, a million temporary autonomous zones. Operating as traditional secret societies with proper confidentiality on locations, identities, times of rituals, routes of acquisition of the sacraments... but as an open-source community on knowledge, teks and experiences. I think this approach has allowed XXI. century psychonautica to flourish to the point it is at today, and it the approach we should continue with.

As for lesser and greater victories in the 'war on drugs', such as decriminalizations and legalizations, I think these are good, and a natural side effect of the growth and power behind our movement, but shouldn't be seen as a goal or a prerequisite to anything, and under no circumstances should we give up anything in order to 'make peace' with the Spectacle.

We won't part with our secrets, our freedom from control, our knowledge in exchange for 'legality'. This is something we all need to adhere to, or we will be lost once again.

 

[xss27]

Reading that article was pretty cringey to be honest - it certainly has that pre-2012 uptopian hint to it.

Look at it as though consciousness were a set of stairs..

After his 40 years of 'creative' psychedelic use has he not once even considered that the stairs may actually be an escalator he's walking the wrong way on, walking and not going anywhere at all?

 

[tregar]

lsrvnt said:

My friend recently has gone mad from the substance and is loosing their connection to love and sanity. he has been having outbursts of madness in the middle of their collage classes insulting the whole class. he will not be able to stay in school if he cannot return some level of sanity.

From an outsider to the dmt subsection....would like to propose an alternate method of message reception or healing, of giving traditional Ayahuasca a try, a new receptorome study done in 2011 shows an interesting comparison between just dmt (smoked or injected) and dmt combined with the traditional components of especially caapi or rue, study can be found in post #1 below:

This study points out a signficant difference happening at over 80% of brain 5-ht (5-ht1a) with oral caapi, rue, Ayahuasca, LSD, mescaline, shrooms, and components of snuffs (5-ho-dmt & 5-meo-dmt) vs just dmt smoked or injected alone (no 5-ht1a agonism)....has to do with serotonin blocking at over 80% of brain 5-ht (5-ht1a) while the psychedelic molecule is working in the place of serotonin at the other 20% of brain 5-ht (everything that is not 5-ht1a). It seems to have not been read by the academic or scientists, and theoretically & subjectively appears to back up a traditional use of dmt as an admixture with either caapi/rue or the components of snuffs or with tiny amounts of 5-meo-dmt (ie around 90% dmt + 10% 5-meo-dmt):

www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&m=935488&#post935488

The study points to a lucid level of ego awareness that is maintained (not dissolved) with just plain injected or smoked dmt due to zero blockage of serotonin filters that make up over 80% of the brain 5-ht (serotonin) unlike what is happening with LSD, mescaline, shrooms, Ayahuasca, rue, snuffs, & 5-meo-dmt.

Another study from Dumuis [1988] also backs up the 2011 Thomas S. Ray Receptorome study: All the tryptamine derivatives substituted in position 5 of the indol were potent agonists [5-HT, 5-CT, 5-MeO-N,N-DMT, 5-methoxytryptamine, and bufotenine (5-ho-DMT)] at 5-ht1a.

whereas tryptamine, N-methyltryptamine (NMT in barks), and N,N-dimethyltryptamine (DMT) were very poor agonists at 5-ht1a.

Having dreamed many Ayahuasca sessions, can say the message reception and healing is quite extraordinary, recommend the traditional method a chance if all else fails, and this is coming from someone who has beat severe depression/addictions due to a death that were at such a level at one time that I thought there was no hope (pre-Ayahuasca).

With Mother Ayahuasca, you realize that all the things that truly matter – beauty, love, creativity, joy, inner peace – arise from beyond the mind or thinking consciouness. You begin to awaken.

Ayahuasca as a master teacher reveals divine transpersonal realms with infinite and eternal beauty and love. All spiritual things, principles, and values such as love, beauty, art, creativity, music, gratitude, nature, significance, Oneness, honesty, generosity, discernment, patience, and perseverance are revealed for what they are--infinite and eternal.

 

[Johnsonptd]

Guy losing his mind

Update from guy

 

[PsyDuckmonkey]

Reading that article was pretty cringey to be honest - it certainly has that pre-2012 uptopian hint to it.

I don't know, those really aren't the words I'd use to describe it.

After his 40 years of 'creative' psychedelic use has he not once even considered that the stairs may actually be an escalator he's walking the wrong way on, walking and not going anywhere at all?

You might want to elaborate your point, as in its current form it just sounds like you're pissed off about something that the article vaguely reminded you of, and so you needed to vent some emotions.

I personally didn't like the anti-rationality / anti-intellectualism edge to it, even though I agree with the rejection of the hospital as a space, and government-authorized research as a context for entheogenic exploration. I also disagree with placing an all too high emphasis on the political, drug war side of the narrative (but then again, coming from him it's understandable and excusable).

I'm not sure what you mean though with your escalator of consciousness he's walking in the wrong direction on...

Guy losing his mind
...
Update from guy

It would help a lot if you at least added why you considered this to be relevant and what the tl;dr of the videos is.

 

[xss27]

I'm not sure what you mean though with your escalator of consciousness he's walking in the wrong direction on..

His staircase of consciousness and the notion of approaching 'the highest' experience from the highest starting point. Perhaps the carrot on a stick analogy would be better suited than the escalator one.

On the new level of consciousness struggling to be born now, this will be
how it is, for the old way of competition, murder, and exploitation is fast becoming an impossible situation.

That doesn't sound like 2012 dreaming to you? Do you think he still holds the same optimistic assessment given where we are now?

 

[PsyDuckmonkey]

His staircase of consciousness and the notion of approaching 'the highest' experience from the highest starting point. Perhaps the carrot on a stick analogy would be better suited than the escalator one.

I'm not sure why you would say that, unless it's just plain cynicism / disillusionment. Indeed I have noticed too that psychedelics can give more if I go into the experience 'having more to begin with'. The staircase metaphor, to me, recalls the infamous line from the Principia Discordia: 'This book is a mirror. When a monkey looks in, no apostle looks out.' The same is true of all psychedelics in my experience, and I believe it's what Sand really meant.

I did plenty of drugs, including psychs when I was a student. Then almost 10 years passed with no psychs, and I revisited them, and all of them managed to open up new meanings, new experiences, new vistas. Over the last few years I changed further, learning and adapting, 'growing up', and now psychs are again different and new. I think this is what the 'staircase' means. I'm not saying psychedelic use improves one's personality or provides free spiritual growth, but they can be a great tool.

That doesn't sound like 2012 dreaming to you? Do you think he still holds the same optimistic assessment given where we are now?

Not all that much has changed since 2012, except the world not ending. Bad things have happened and good things have happened. We have all aged a few years. I guess if anything, this latter might be more related to any disillusionment we might be feeling, than actual events in the world outside.

 

[Jupitor]

I enjoyed reading Sands' article. One thing that stands out is his recommendation to avoid Cannabis. Do any of you know if he has ever elaborated on this subject?

Ayahuasca has also told me to avoid it. As has an Ayahuascero.

I notice that when I have used Cannabis, it inhibits my growth and makes me feel "stuck".

Any other thoughts on the subject? I know many of you are huge Cannabis proponents, but I have really begun to question whether or not using it as head medicine is a good thing...

 

[Johnsonptd]

[/quote]It would help a lot if you at least added why you considered this to be relevant and what the tl;dr of the videos is.[/quote]

I was thinking it might bring some hope to OP for the condition of his friend. That he’s not alone in his dmt triggered madness.

A month or two ago two gentlemen told me they went on an ayahuasca retreat. One revealed that it just made him more and more depressed as the months went by and he feels like his life has gotten worse and regrets it entirely. The other, while not nearly as unpleasant, said it did him no good.

After getting to know them more and reading about others’ experiences, I can imagine these two...venturing into the jungles of their minds, seeking something specific and getting completely blindsided by so much more..catapulted into a state of knowing very little and wanting to still be in control of so much. A tension creating the fear of losing our “minds” or egos and everything we believe. That seemed to be my dilemma. I couldn’t accept the eternal silence of being nothing and losing my “self.” I lost the ability to speak to people, and didn’t speak or talk to anyone for a year. I learned so much then.

I would say dmt is not for everyone, but who am I to make that claim? A man wins the lotto(good?), gets a new car(good?), breaks his arm and leg in a car accident(bad?), then learns of a landslide taking out his house in the middle of the night while he’s in the hospital(good?bad?).. there’s a bigger picture and I can’t see it. passing judgement creates suffering and takes me away from a state of acceptance, of embracing each moment as a gift to be thankful for.

Psychedelics, like anything else absorbed into the mind/body, has its risks. But I feel, based on the journeys of others and my own, that they are inherently beneficial to humans, no matter how terrible the experience appears to be. I tend to put them on a pedestal, like deity status...they’ve been around much longer than I have, and they’ve demolished my whole understanding of existence. I am a child under their influence. They teach me to love and forgive, myself and others. I see no other way to survive without communion to Mother Earth and her gifts - something I feel we are so disconnected from

 

[PsyDuckmonkey]

One thing that stands out is his recommendation to avoid Cannabis. Do any of you know if he has ever elaborated on this subject?

Ayahuasca has also told me to avoid it. As has an Ayahuascero.

This is my 'favorite', the good drug bad drug game. Every priest needs a devil to preach against, otherwise people would just go and be free and commune with God themselves, and decide there's no need for priests at all. He also preached against coffee and tobacco. As if they were somehow responsible for other drugs being illegal.

Cannabis is mildly addictive. It's possible to have a damaging cannabis habit. I think all of us counterculture folks know a few people who smoke too much. Psychedelics may be less conductive to addiction, but you know what, I've also seen people eat mushrooms too much, and it was clearly and obviously messing them up in the head. No spiritual growth there, just going plain old bonkers.

Cannabis can be a bad influence, but also a good one. And honestly, I feel the same about tobacco. As long as they are used and not abused. As for coffee, it's a potent anti-cancer and neuroprotective medicine. One can still overdo it, too.

If Aya told you to stay clear of Cannabis, is it not because something you did with Cannabis (like, abused it), rather than the plant itself? For me, Cannabis tends to be an extremely healing and beneficial experience, but I don't smoke habitually at all.