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Zero proof DMT is made in your head.

Migrated topic.
fastfred said:
Endlessness, you're placing WAY too much weight on a single study that failed to find INMT transcripts in the brain.
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Hey FF :)

Dont worry I dont think you're dissing me, your post is appreciated. Do note that you quoted some post from me that is more than 2 years old, for starters.... And at that time, it was the only study looking specifically into this question we had, so while it isn't enough, at least it was more than pure speculation.

Nowadays I wouldn't say science is pointing against it because there are other factors at play such as you mentioned, and other publications of interest coming out that may show otherwise, but still no proof either way is there yet.

And regardless, as I asked in my last post, I feel that the whole focus on the pineal DMT is a bit of a diversion from a lot of other interesting questions, and even if it was shown to be there, it doesnt doesn't really show much else, specially not about the other speculation people might tie in together with the 'pineal dmt' story.

In any case, im certainly interested in what facts will come out of this whole story.. The more research is done and the more reliable facts appear, the better, whether it shows us one thing or another :)
 
fastfred said:
Infundibulum said:
presence of INMT in the pineal does not imply that dmt is produced in the pineal (it really doesn't imply it).
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Can you explain that statement? Seems pretty unlikely to me that INMT would not = DMT.


-FF
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The workings of biological systems are never as simple as that, aren't they? We know that INMT primarily converts tryptamine to NMT. INMT also converts NMT to DMT but at a much lower rate; we also know that DMT is a potent inhibitor of INMT.

One can hypothesize that INMT in the what-ever tissue is expressed primarily forms NMT which may, it its own respect have important physiological roles. DMT, whether it reaches INMT from the local vicinity or the periphery (as e.g. a hormone) might serve to quench the ability of INMT to form NMT. Or maybe not. Without apt demonstrations we cannot just jump into conclusions.

Let's not look for our keys around the lamp post just because this is where we see better. The keys might have been forgotten back in the pub.
 
The only way to really prove this hypothesis is to get a dying patient to agree to be killed and immidiately analyzed. The fact that DMT is so easily broken down makes it hard to identify in dead tissue, or fluids. You need fresh material, and as far as i know, the only analysis on truly fresh brain/pineal matter in search of DMT is the recent study on rats, which consistently showed measurable levels of DMT. Rick Strassman covers this in his book, they analyzed cow pineals for endogenous DMT, but stressed that because of the poor preservation and the time elapsed he knew that he would not find any.

If youre looking for some sort of precursor, or some sort of evidence to show that DMT is probably produced in the brain, it will always be challenged, much like what is going on now. Personally, i think its there, but honestly, i dont know shit, at least until living brain tissue is analyzed in a number of people, which will likely never happen.

To me its an interesting idea, and probably the closest thing to a scientific explanation of certain aspects of life not otherwise explainable. I'm more inclined to believe the DMT model for mystical experiences than any religion, thats for sure.

Essentially, it can't really be proven, at least not for a long time. After all, isnt this the purpose of using DMT in the first place? to explore WHY such a chemical exists in your body, by observing the effects of the chemical? think about it. we identified THC in marijuana, realized it made people hungry, and then scientists discovered endocannabinoids which play a role in appetite. Its similar with DMT, except it induces intense, often religious experiences. i think these experiences are a giant part of human life. i don't think it's nieve to assume it could serve a purpose in our bodies
 
AtomicChronic said:
The only way to really prove this hypothesis is to get a dying patient to agree to be killed and immidiately analyzed. The fact that DMT is so easily broken down makes it hard to identify in dead tissue, or fluids. You need fresh material, and as far as i know, the only analysis on truly fresh brain/pineal matter in search of DMT is the recent study on rats, which consistently showed measurable levels of DMT. Rick Strassman covers this in his book, they analyzed cow pineals for endogenous DMT, but stressed that because of the poor preservation and the time elapsed he knew that he would not find any.
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No. There is a ton of other experiments one could do before reaching to the point of actually needing to perform almost impossible experiments as the ones you describe above. But this is not a tread to discuss methods and techniques in molecular biology/physiology/etc.

Often a sufficient number of results from experiments that all unequivocally point to a specific direction (but do not constitute "direct demonstration" ) is enough to draw a confident conclusion.
 
I'm curious to know, if DMT has nothing to do with the pineal, what does it do? Possibly nothing fantastic but regulating levels of something in the body? How is that going to effect everyone? Either way, even when we do find out what part of the body creates/utilizes it we still won't really know anything. That info is much farther down the road.

And as far as joe rogan goes, if you ever comment that he states that DMT is created in the pineal you obviously do not watch his podcast, but have probably skimmed a little. He has stated in multiple podcasts that its just a theory. He has received flak from many people and had to clarify that when he said what he says he's simply quoting what strassman said. A lot of people took what strassman said as fact as well. Strassman also had to reiterate that his statement meant that's his theory. When rogan talks its very much like when friends get together and conversate about their own interests. Very much like how it happens with me. When rogan says certain things he says it knowing that the majority of people watching the podcast understand his context. You can't simply ask him to clarify, due to the fact he would have to do so with everything he says, which would increase the time a podcast lasts to double.

It's shorthand conversation. If you weren't there in the begining you are going to misunderstand certain things. It's just him messing up a little an people take it way too seriously. He's just a dude doing something fun that some people enjoy. Quit expecting him to be perfect.

I personally don't have an opinion on DMT and the pineal. It would IMO be quite interesting if strassmans theory were true. But again if I were then what does that mean? A never ending cycle of still not knowing wtf.

Any feel like this reality is a trip your experiencing?
 
Infundibulum said:
There is a ton of other experiments one could do before reaching to the point of actually needing to perform almost impossible experiments as the ones you describe above.
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i fully agree with you. let me correct myself, the only way that nobody will argue otherwise would be to do these kind of tests. What i'm saying is that there will always be someone there who will disagree, just like there are still wackos who actually believe the earth is flat.

I want constructive research done on the subject, but i think that people saying "theres no direct proof, therefore its absolutely not true" do more to hurt scientific exploration then to help it. we need to understand that it cant be proven without more research, and we cant perform more research without considering it as a possibility. Some evidence is pointing towards it, some is pointing against it, but its too early to be forming opinions, even if we cant help ourselves. My point is that undeniable proof isnt gonna just show up overnight, if ever, the best we can do is find the most likely scenario for the evidence we have.
 
Infundibulum said:
The workings of biological systems are never as simple as that, aren't they? We know that INMT primarily converts tryptamine to NMT. INMT also converts NMT to DMT but at a much lower rate; we also know that DMT is a potent inhibitor of INMT.

Let's not look for our keys around the lamp post just because this is where we see better. The keys might have been forgotten back in the pub.
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Tryptamine + INMT = NMT
NMT + INMT = DMT

If your theory is that INMT != DMT then you're presuming that tryptamine/TDC is not present.

Personally, if the gene that makes the enzyme that makes a product is active... I would normally assume the product is being made. Seems like much more of a stretch to assume that the enzyme is just wasting energy to be produced and then loitering around with no substrate.


-FF
 
fastfred said:
Infundibulum said:
The workings of biological systems are never as simple as that, aren't they? We know that INMT primarily converts tryptamine to NMT. INMT also converts NMT to DMT but at a much lower rate; we also know that DMT is a potent inhibitor of INMT.

Let's not look for our keys around the lamp post just because this is where we see better. The keys might have been forgotten back in the pub.
Click to expand...

Tryptamine + INMT = NMT
NMT + INMT = DMT

If your theory is that INMT != DMT then you're presuming that tryptamine/TDC is not present.

Personally, if the gene that makes the enzyme that makes a product is active... I would normally assume the product is being made. Seems like much more of a stretch to assume that the enzyme is just wasting energy to be produced and then loitering around with no substrate.


-FF
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you're missing the co-substrate, in this case it's s-adenosyl-methionine, the actual methylator.
the enzyme won't convert the precursor without it
 
"S-Adenosylmethionine is an essential ubiquitous metabolite central to many biochemical pathways, including transmethylation and polyamine biosynthesis."

The usual culprit for limiting DMT biosynthesis is tryptamine...

"Tryptamine synthesized by decarboxylation of L-tryptophan occurs as an endogenous constituent of mammalian brain albeit at very low concentrations (low ng/g range). It is primarily metabolized by oxidative deamination by MAO and possesses an extremely rapid turnover and half-life."

I think the real issue is probably if/when INMT is produced in the brain. If it's produced somewhere else you would think it would be a lot easier to figure out. Simple blood tests would probably be able to see if it's implicated in some of the things proposed. Seems like it would make sense to check that out first and worry about looking for it in the brain if those don't pan out.


-FF
 
joedirt said:
Orion said:
Endogenous psychoactive tryptamines reconsidered: an anxiolytic role for dimethyltryptamine




For those to lazey to follow the links:
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glad you included some of the stuff from the links. I am not too lazy, but one link is dead, the other requires purchase for $40. (many countries pay for their citizens to have access to medical and scientific research papers, especially those funded by tax dollars in public universities and other tax-funded research, they pay for all these annual or individual fees; the US, I know from all sorts of intentional research on many topics of interest to me, is not one of these countries, o/c... long live fascist capitalism).
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MB3 said:
glad you included some of the stuff from the links. I am not too lazy, but one link is dead, the other requires purchase for $40. (many countries pay for their citizens to have access to medical and scientific research papers, especially those funded by tax dollars in public universities and other tax-funded research, they pay for all these annual or individual fees; the US, I know from all sorts of intentional research on many topics of interest to me, is not one of these countries, o/c... long live fascist capitalism).
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Sorry to go slightly off topic, but a while back someone posted a method that allowed you to view journal articles for free. I can't recall what thread it was in but if anyone remembers what I am talking about it would be awesome if you could post it.
 
MB3 said:
joedirt said:
Orion said:
Endogenous psychoactive tryptamines reconsidered: an anxiolytic role for dimethyltryptamine




For those to lazey to follow the links:
Click to expand...

glad you included some of the stuff from the links. I am not too lazy, but one link is dead, the other requires purchase for $40. (many countries pay for their citizens to have access to medical and scientific research papers, especially those funded by tax dollars in public universities and other tax-funded research, they pay for all these annual or individual fees; the US, I know from all sorts of intentional research on many topics of interest to me, is not one of these countries, o/c... long live fascist capitalism).
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The pricing or not of scientific journals is a complex matter and definitely not one that should be discussed in this thread. I understand your frustration and the ranting but it would be more productive if you made a separate thread inviting discussion onto this matter instead of pouring vitriol all over.

@alert: it was the Domain Registered at Safenames page where you could, with a bit of patience access articles that you would normally have to pay for, but this website appears to be down.
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weareone7x said:
It is definitely produced in our bodies:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Biosynthesis of N,N-dimethyltryptamine (DMT) in a melanoma cell line and its metabolization by peroxidases - PubMed

Tryptophan (TRP) is essential for many physiological processes, and its metabolism changes in some diseases such as infection and cancer. The most studied aspects of TRP metabolism are the kynurenine and serotonin pathways. A minor metabolic route, tryptamine and N,N-dimethyltryptamine (DMT)...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
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In this case I believe they mean specifically the pineal gland. Though it has been found in the pineals of live rats, I doubt anyone will be volunteering to have their head sliced open to settle and age-long Nexus debate.
 
All I know from what I have researched is that its a substance that is broken down incredibly quickly without the use of maoi's.
This being the case our body's are ready to process this chemical very rapidly, maybe because of familiarity of the chemical, chemical makeup, or just a fluke. Any case, a great mystery nonetheless.

I find it very fascinating how this molecule is metabolized at such a fast rate as compared to lsd, mescaline, or psilocybin. As these chemicals are slightly different than just NN-DMT. Psilocybin has the chemical makeup of 4-PO-DMT, etc. They are all complex in structure and therefore logically, take longer to metabolize IMO. An extra step if you wish needs to take place for the process to complete.

Why does it metabolize soo fast? Beats me. But just trying to turn some gears I guess. My conclusion is that it does occur naturally IMO, Its like the wind, you cant see it, but you know its there. Here's a site I kinda crossed, don't know how true it is but hope it goes the right direction. http://deoxy.org/dmtpro.htm

Peace and harmony! --dls--:thumb_up:
 
112233 said:
weareone7x said:
It is definitely produced in our bodies:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Biosynthesis of N,N-dimethyltryptamine (DMT) in a melanoma cell line and its metabolization by peroxidases - PubMed

Tryptophan (TRP) is essential for many physiological processes, and its metabolism changes in some diseases such as infection and cancer. The most studied aspects of TRP metabolism are the kynurenine and serotonin pathways. A minor metabolic route, tryptamine and N,N-dimethyltryptamine (DMT)...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Click to expand...

In this case I believe they mean specifically the pineal gland. Though it has been found in the pineals of live rats, I doubt anyone will be volunteering to have their head sliced open to settle and age-long Nexus debate.
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Considering the topic was released years ago, that journal released this year, it is relevant to the subject itself. Pineal or not, our SK-Mel-147 cells are producing this molecule, and it plays a role in the nature around us. It's a neurotransmitter, closely related to Serotonin and Melatonin, both amazing tryptamines. This adds to the discussion, as those who come into this thread may be looking for where it's produced, and now they will find it.
 
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