1-3 propanediol (trimethylene glycol) instead of propylene glycol for DMT e-cig juice ?

[The Sofa Traveler]

Hi Nexians ! Has anyone ever tried 1-3 propanediol (trimethylene glycol) instead of propylene glycol for DMT e-cig juice ?
Peace

 

[The Sofa Traveler]

Nobody ? I ask this because the 1-3 propanediol is sold in France under the brand Vegetol as an alternative to propylene glycol. I wonder about DMT solubility in it as well as overall efficiency for DMT aerosolization.

 

[TransistorBass]

So is that just VG / Vegetable Glycerine? As in DMT is not that dissolvable in it.

 

[The Sofa Traveler]

So is that just VG / Vegetable Glycerine? As in DMT is not that dissolvable in it.

It's not PG (1,2 propanediol - propylene glycol), neither VG (glycerol). 1-3 propanediol (trimethylene glycol) is an organic compound which can be obtained by bio-fermentation of glycerol. It's less viscous than PG but I don't know about solubility and overall efficiency as PG substitute for DMT vape. That's the datas I'm looking for.

 

[TransistorBass]

It's not PG (1,2 propanediol - propylene glycol), neither VG (glycerol). 1-3 propanediol (trimethylene glycol) is an organic compound which can be obtained by bio-fermentation of glycerol. It's less viscous than PG but I don't know about solubility and overall efficiency as PG substitute for DMT vape. That's the datas I'm looking for.

I'd remembered reading Vegetol in relation to VG, hence my comment. Happy to be wrong though.

 

[The Sofa Traveler]

Well so I put my hands on some 1,3-propanediol (trimethylene glycol/TG) and started to explore it. For the moment I only checked the DMT solubility in it and it seems quite good. I achieved to dissolve 1g DMT in 1,3ml trimethylene glycol quite easily, it seems to dissolve even faster than in PG (propylene glycol). It also seems slightly less viscous than PG and doesn't seem to precipitate the spice after rest at room temperature. Next step in my experiments will be to add some VG (glycerol/vegetable glycerin/VG) to the mix to have a point of comparison with my latest juices, which were mostly 50% PG/50% VG. Of course over time I'll explore other ratios, including pure TG.
I will try the juice with this new sub-ohm tank beauty, the BD Vape Precisio Sub-Ohm Blaster Edition. I have 0.15, 0.2, 0.3 and 0.4 coils for it, so a lot of settings to explore with this new tank. It is provided with 4,5ml bulb glass and 2ml straight glass and has top airflow.
Some might want to ask : why the trimethylene glycol instead of PG ? Several reasons. Some people could be wary inhaling petrochemical derived products like PG. Trimethylene glycol is a byproduct of biodiesel obtained by fermentation of glycerol (VG). Next, TG seems to be less harmful than PG at high heat exposition. Also, they claim TG is smoother on lungs and provides better nicotine bioavailability but I don't know if it will be the case with DMT. I will keep you updated on my future experiences. In France it's sold under brand name Végétol® as PG substitute. They even studied physical/chemical properties of TG and it seems to have a safe profile for this use.

Peace.

 

[Transform]

Nice - so it has an established safety profile, does it? Please could you provide a link and some details here.

This does rather sound like a useful 'new' addition to the technological arsenal!

 

[The Sofa Traveler]

Nice - so it has an established safety profile, does it? Please could you provide a link and some details here.

This does rather sound like a useful 'new' addition to the technological arsenal!

Link to the review is at the end of my previous post

 

[The Sofa Traveler]

And now you are here, I was just wondering if a chemist like you could determine the solubility of DMT in this substrate, because I have the impression that it is better than in PG (which would allow for more concentrated juices), but at this stage it is only my impression, that needs to be confirmed (or not). I'm probably gonna vape it next week-end to see how it feels and works. I prepared a 1g DMT/1,3ml TG/1,2ml VG juice ready to go, which I'll try with this new promising sub-ohm tank.

 

[Transform]

And now you are here, I was just wondering if a chemist like you could determine the solubility of DMT in this substrate, because I have the impression that it is better than in PG (which would allow for more concentrated juices), but at this stage it is only my impression, that needs to be confirmed (or not). I'm probably gonna vape it next week-end to see how it feels and works. I prepared a 1g DMT/1,3ml TG/1,2ml VG juice ready to go, which I'll try with this new promising sub-ohm tank.

I'd have to see how easily obtainable the TG (1,3-PDO) is for me. In principle, anyone can determine a solubility level with a few pieces of relatively simple equipment.

Looking forward to hearing more of how the new juice works for you!

 

[Transform]

Link to the review is at the end of my previous post

OK, so toxicologically speaking we have a profile superior to that of PG:

PDO is GRAS certified (“Generally Recognized As Safe”) by FDA<a data-track="click" data-track-action="reference anchor" data-track-label="link" data-test="citation-ref" title="US FDA GRAS Notification Program available at https://www.fda.gov/downloads/Food/IngredientsPackagingLabeling/GRAS/oticeInventory/ucm269352.pdf (2017)." href="Physical and chemical assessment of 1,3 Propanediol as a potential substitute of propylene glycol in refill liquid for electronic cigarettes - Scientific Reports">21</a>. In a recent inhalation toxicity study, PDO tested at 1800 mg/m3, PDO does not appear to pose a significant hazard via inhalation of either the gas phase or a gas/aerosol mixture<a data-track="click" data-track-action="reference anchor" data-track-label="link" data-test="citation-ref" title="Farsalinos, E. K. et al. Comparison of the Cytotoxic Potential of Cigarette Smoke and Electronic Cigarette Vapour Extract on Cultured Myocardial Cells. Int. J. Environ. Res. Public. Health 10 (2013)." href="Physical and chemical assessment of 1,3 Propanediol as a potential substitute of propylene glycol in refill liquid for electronic cigarettes - Scientific Reports">17</a>. In cosmetics, 1,3-propanediol is recognized and used as a non-irritant alternative to PG<a data-track="click" data-track-action="reference anchor" data-track-label="link" data-test="citation-ref" title="Scott, R. S., Frame, S. R., Ross, P. E., Loveless, S. E. &amp; Kennedy, G. L. Inhalation Toxicity of 1,3-Propanediol in the Rat. Inhal. Toxicol. 17, 487–493 (2005)." href="Physical and chemical assessment of 1,3 Propanediol as a potential substitute of propylene glycol in refill liquid for electronic cigarettes - Scientific Reports">22</a>.

It would be good to dig up the specifics of those references - the provision of a more explicit clarification of the safety profile is generally considered to be the responsibility of the person who first introduces the novel material to a space - or that's at least analogous to the rules we have here for discussing novel psychoactive substances.

 

[The Sofa Traveler]

I'd have to see how easily obtainable the TG (1,3-PDO) is for me. In principle, anyone can determine a solubility level with a few pieces of relatively simple equipment.

Looking forward to hearing more of how the new juice works for you!

Ok, I somewhat naively thought that it could be determined simply based on the physico-chemical properties of 1,3-PDO.
For those wondering about safety profile, you included if you didn't have time to read the review, here is a quote from the conclusion :

PDO is doubtless stable upon heating when EC are used in recommended conditions (250 °C).

PDO seems to have better thermal behavior showing less thermal decomposition by-products compared to PG and VG.

After the tests I'm planning we'll now if it could be a serious substitute to PG. PDO is quite easy to obtain, at least in France : I bought it from an online vape shop.
I'll keep the community informed of my future experiments with it.