Ah, okay yes. Apologies for the conflation.
So would you say ~metoachuasca (or whatever we'll call it) was more or less sedating than psilohuasca?
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4-AcO-MET + oral harmalas ?
- Thread starter The Sofa Traveler
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So would you say ~metoachuasca (or whatever we'll call it) was more or less sedating than psilohuasca?
The Sofa Traveler
Traveling without moving
I have found it more sedating than psilohuasca but maybe the setting also helped increasing the sedative feeling : lying on deckchair, hot day and night (still 29C at midnight, a part of France is currently in the middle of a heat wave - and heat can contribute to sedation). I also definitely found it ways more sedative than 4-AcO-MET alone and I think it's mostly due to the combo but I think context accentuated it)
@The Sofa Traveler and @pantostao , thanks for sharing your experiences, really appreciate it. The reason why metocin isn’t that interesting to me is that when I look at my experiences with DMT, LSD, mescaline, there’s always a very strong component in which I have a conversation. I’m having a conversation with myself, but also with the substance and with the state of being. Kind of like with the hallucination, especially with DMT. The experience often includes a kind of thought-dialogue, or an actual conversation, and for me that’s often a major part of the experience.
Whereas with metocin, and why I don’t find it particularly compelling, is that while it’s incredibly beautiful visually, the “conversation” doesn’t seem to happen. It feels as if the substance is mute, deaf-mute even. So I’m wondering whether harmalas, or if any of you recognize this, could influence that, and whether the harmalas might enable that conversational element to take place. I don’t know if this is something very personal, but to me that would be extremely interesting if this is something you feel too.
Whereas with metocin, and why I don’t find it particularly compelling, is that while it’s incredibly beautiful visually, the “conversation” doesn’t seem to happen. It feels as if the substance is mute, deaf-mute even. So I’m wondering whether harmalas, or if any of you recognize this, could influence that, and whether the harmalas might enable that conversational element to take place. I don’t know if this is something very personal, but to me that would be extremely interesting if this is something you feel too.
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pantostao
Established member
@Varallo I tend to agree with you, metocin doesn't feel as "full" as other psychedelics. It definitely has the visual component (and it's amazing), but it lacks in other departments. I'm not sure if harmalas added that conversational element you talk about, I think it did, but in a relatively minor way. This might be dose dependent, I've had extraordinary metocin experiences in the past, but I understand what you're talking about.
@Transform I haven't tried psilohuasca, but 4-HO-MET on its own feels way more stimulating than shrooms. I often can't stay still and move a lot, unlike with shrooms. Harmalas counteracted that feeling, but if I had to guess, I'd say psilohuasca would be even more sedating.
On nomenclature, I use metocin for 4-HO-MET and metacetin for 4-AcO-MET, following the same protocol as psilocin (4-HO-DMT) and psilacetin (4-AcO-DMT). This user on reddit gave a pretty complete list of common names for substituted tryptamines, and I tend to follow it, I feel it's pretty logical.
@Transform I haven't tried psilohuasca, but 4-HO-MET on its own feels way more stimulating than shrooms. I often can't stay still and move a lot, unlike with shrooms. Harmalas counteracted that feeling, but if I had to guess, I'd say psilohuasca would be even more sedating.
On nomenclature, I use metocin for 4-HO-MET and metacetin for 4-AcO-MET, following the same protocol as psilocin (4-HO-DMT) and psilacetin (4-AcO-DMT). This user on reddit gave a pretty complete list of common names for substituted tryptamines, and I tend to follow it, I feel it's pretty logical.
The Sofa Traveler
Traveling without moving
@Varallo I think I need a few more experiences with the combo to tell. I feel the harmalas definitely brought some of the lacking depth to the metacetin/4-AcO-MET but I need to try it alone (I mean, without other people) to be able to focus more on the inner thought/dialogue, which I actually felt present but wasn't able to focus more on. Although, no alien or entities communication like with DMT or high mushrooms doses. One of my 2 guests had a more introspective trip and he seemed to have had interesting insights. For sure I'll try the combo again rather than just having the 4-AcO-MET alone. As you already mentioned, the 4-AcO-MET (metacetin) or 4-HO-MET (metocin) seems lacking something (a "je-ne-sais-quoi" would we say in French) compared to shrooms, that's why I think it's worth exploring it further with harmalas. For the next tries, I think I'll up the 4-AcO-MET dose to 25 or 30mg and keep the harmalas dose the same (between 250 and 300mg refined extract).
pantostao
Established member
Keep in mind the dose response isn't linear. Jumping from 20 to 30mg is a pretty big jump. Not that I recommend avoiding it, but keep in mind it will be way more powerful than lower doses.
My highest 4-HO-MET dose was 45mg once, and it felt 10x as potent as a 30mg dose. Total disolution with my surroundings and memory supression for hours, flying through colourful mazes and scenes. I felt dead and reborn again. That one was a full psychedelic experience, not lacking in any aspect. I'm not recommending to take that amount, it was too much, and felt inconfortable most of the time, but it was what most of us are looking for in a psychedelic trip.
Really interesting to read, I have some time this summer and will try this combination, actually I’m really looking forward to seeing if the mix balances the experience. Maybe I will try it also with Miprocin and see if that works. Miprocin has some interesting effects and to me feels much richer, so adding harmalas might even make it better.
Thank again
Thank again
The Sofa Traveler
Traveling without moving
@pantostao I know that, that's why I will not go immediately to 40mg or more. Note that 4-HO-MET required dose seems slightly lower than the 4-AcO-MET, there seems to be some losses from AcO -> HO metabolic conversion. 45mg of 4-HO-MET is probably like 50mg or + 4-AcO-MET. For the moment I don't plan to go so high, I have the intuition that 25-30mg could be my sweet spot with that harmalas dose. I probably also will try the same 4-AcO-MET dose (20mg) with increased harmalas dose, like 350mg or something like that. Also, @Varallo experiences with e-cig and some RC's make me also want to try this route. Lot of stuff to explore there too.
Note to the readers : we talk here of experimental molecules used in an even more experimental way by combining them with harmalas. Be prudent, especially if you're not used to harmalas, which I suggest to try alone first, before combining them with any tryptamine. This is a guinea pigs meeting.
Note to the readers : we talk here of experimental molecules used in an even more experimental way by combining them with harmalas. Be prudent, especially if you're not used to harmalas, which I suggest to try alone first, before combining them with any tryptamine. This is a guinea pigs meeting.
newusername1
Established member
Try metocin in combination with LSD. Because of it's short duration, it's best to take it when the LSD is peaking.
It's perfect for adding visual fireworks and euphoria.
LoveBlanket
Esteemed member
Didn't you notice an increase in duration with the Harmalas ? 5 to 6H is a normal trip without Rue for me with 4 HO Tryptamines .
When I use Shrooms, Harmalas can make the trip way longer than usual
Definitly gotta try this one
When I use Shrooms, Harmalas can make the trip way longer than usual
Definitly gotta try this one
I'm yet to try metocin so this idea is coming from inexperience in that specific area, but looking at this now - what if the substance is merely "shy", a bit like how it is said of ska pastora/Salvia divinorum? This is obviously a kind of metaphorical language that I'm using with respect to understanding psychedelic states, and that's not altogether uncommon when looking at how understanding of the spaces gets articulated in traditional use.
Does metocin have its own language that we're yet to decipher? Are we still in the process of developing its psycholinguistic morphogenetic field, or whatever, on account of the relative novelty and rarity of this substance?
Does this 'richness' extend to the sense of inner dialogue? If so, why would both psilocin and miprocin have it, and yet metocin not? And have you tried double-blind testing to ensure that it's not simply an effect of your expectations? Maybe it stems from, say, how you happened to be feeling or whatever was going on at the time you first tried metocin. Could it be that you yourself were lacking in an aspect of inner communication and you now have some conditioning that continues to mould your expectations?
Having a side-by-side comparison from as many psychonauts as possible (from a thorough mining of the Erowid vaults, for example) should help throw some more light on this particular set of questions. It just seems particularly fascinating that this one homologue in between two rich and delightful siblings should lack this one feature - a bit like the 'middle child' conundrum (being one of my numerous excuses for having been the wayward black sheep of the family
)In light of all that, I'd jump at the opportunity to compare these two psilocin analogues should it ever arise, if only to see if there's a special 'middle child' affinity that I can work with!
LoveBlanket
Esteemed member
Hi, those are very interesting observations and I actually came down to similar conclusions ;
In my experience, there is something quite peculiar about the mushroom headspace, people call *introspective, deep, dialogue* etc that I get from 4 HO MIPT and I don't really get it nearly as much using 4 HO MET for some reason.
4 HO MET seems to me to be way more pro-social, turned outwards towards enjoying the outside, being with friends, I always notice during the peak, in the way the euphoria is felt, its like a bug serotonin rush akin to MDMA . I've had very interesting times using 4 HO MET but mostly in sharing emotions with others .
It seems more about the social interactions, the crazy visions euphoria, awesome for Raving .
Some SRI activity has been hypothesized for 4 HO MET
4 HO MIPT is much more similar to the Mushrooms, even in the body its more stoney but as you say, inner dialogue, feelings of guidance , deep, deep introspection, not really a *fun rush* like there is with 4 HO MET
4 HO MIPT can also really play with my emotions , very psychedelic while 4 HO MET most of the times feels like an artificially great mood
I often use 4 HO MIPT as a meditation tool
I sometimes use 4 HO MET to rave and dance my ass off
I could hardly imagine myself raving while on 4 HO MIPT or meditating while on 4 HO MET lol
This is all my own very biased experience
I have no idea of a pharmacological reason besides the potential for 4 HO MET to also be an SRI which would explain a more *overt* euphoria and visual trip but IDK I have 0 proof of that
I'd be curious to mix 10/15mg of each in one gel cap and swallow ....
I still haven’t figured out what that language is for me, I’ve tried it quite regularly in all kinds of doses. And like you suggest, I had the idea that maybe it was just a matter of learning to understand each other better, but up to now I haven’t managed that. Also after I discovered that miprocin was so much more rewarding I didn’t continue playing with metocin that regularly. For me metocin very much feels like watching television about the psychedelic experience, rather than having one.I'm yet to try metocin so this idea is coming from inexperience in that specific area, but looking at this now - what if the substance is merely "shy", a bit like how it is said of ska pastora/Salvia divinorum? This is obviously a kind of metaphorical language that I'm using with respect to understanding psychedelic states, and that's not altogether uncommon when looking at how understanding of the spaces gets articulated in traditional use.
Does metocin have its own language that we're yet to decipher? Are we still in the process of developing its psycholinguistic morphogenetic field, or whatever, on account of the relative novelty and rarity of this substance?
Does this 'richness' extend to the sense of inner dialogue? If so, why would both psilocin and miprocin have it, and yet metocin not? And have you tried double-blind testing to ensure that it's not simply an effect of your expectations? Maybe it stems from, say, how you happened to be feeling or whatever was going on at the time you first tried metocin. Could it be that you yourself were lacking in an aspect of inner communication and you now have some conditioning that continues to mould your expectations?
Having a side-by-side comparison from as many psychonauts as possible (from a thorough mining of the Erowid vaults, for example) should help throw some more light on this particular set of questions. It just seems particularly fascinating that this one homologue in between two rich and delightful siblings should lack this one feature - a bit like the 'middle child' conundrum (being one of my numerous excuses for having been the wayward black sheep of the family
In light of all that, I'd jump at the opportunity to compare these two psilocin analogues should it ever arise, if only to see if there's a special 'middle child' affinity that I can work with!
With miprocin, on the other hand, I had that very clear sense of magic right from the start. For a psychedelic, miprocin feels much more complete, and it has a deep spiritual component that makes it truly magical. Metocin, for me, goes much more in the direction of a kind of party drug. I mean, it’s lovely for hanging out with your friends on the beach for a day, but miprocin is a real psychedelic that can really fill you with wonder.
It might be an interesting idea to try to do some blind testing, but with my current situation that would take a while
. I’m also very interested in trying the combination with harmalas, maybe they could act like an translator so to speak.
Interesting, Ive also found 4-HO-MET to be quite valuable in social situations.
Pumpy
Titanium Teammate
I tried that. Worked very well! The harmala makes the met worth it imo