5-MeO-DMT - Hype or Hyperbole?

[Here&Now]

I like the simplicity with which you frame this and it makes sense that the practice in essence is simple.

The vid you link with Adyashanti describes it well also in the simplicity and it aligns with what we had discussed earlier about the top down and bottom up paths of practice merging.

Like for example sensory restraint and ethical living needing to be cultivated from the side of the individual self, yet it also being an effortless and fundamental part of the already awakened mind.
So when one touches the awakened state and operates from there one naturally is like this, but unless one also consciously develops the practice outside of this then the egoic self will tend to gradually predominate again, so the idea of lasting meaningful change with psychedelics alone and without doing the work outside this is not really possible as the egoic self doesn't magically disappear permanently by itself although sometimes insights from psychedelics can be transformative in themselves and lead to more effortless change.

Right, this is 100% accurate in my experience. I'm guessing that until a certain threshold is crossed, the progress that's gained is perishable without further reinforcement. I'm sure we've all heard of scenarios where someone goes through a super profound trip, acts in a more conscious manner for a period of time, and then eventually regresses back to their previous state. I've been through that cycle a bunch of times myself.

I am linking here a recent study done which examined 5-MeO-DMT alongside Mahamudra meditation with an expert meditator from the Tibetan lineage. I am supposing they selected Mahamudra meditation as descriptively it matches many of the characteristics we discussed, a brief description of the practice is here.

It is interesting to find subjective and neurological correspondences between 5-MeO-DMT, particularly at lower doses and non dual meditation which match descriptions you gave and affirms that both phenomenologically and experientially it is the same, or a very similar state. It raises questions also as to the divergence regards higher doses.

I know you probably wouldn't regard yourself as an advanced meditator, but you do have a fair amount of experience with practice for some years and obviously you have a lot of experience with 5-MeO-DMT, unlike the study participant who was drug naiive.

I did see that study and video when it came out recently. Very interesting stuff for sure. I love how so many people are becoming aware of the stark similarities between 5-MeO-DMT and meditation. It opens the door to so much more discovery. If we were to consider meditation as one of the most valuable activities a person can do, then 5-MeO-DMT can perhaps be considered one of the most valuable substances in the world. Who knows what kind of effective utilizations can be discovered through technological advancement?

Regarding some of the results of the study, there's one area where I'll be presumptuous. When it comes to the abundance of brain activity seen on the EEG during the 5-MeO-DMT breakthrough, I would assume the Kundalini-based energetic state that's produced is confounding the measurements they're trying to collect. This is difficult to explain and probably even more difficult for some to believe, but what courses through the body during this condition is energy in the literal sense. And without having the evidence to back it up, I claim it's some form of heightened bodily electromagnetism in particular. Even under normal conditions, EEG readings can be distorted by the subtle amounts of electricity generated from gently flexing a muscle (which is a confounding phenomenon known to EEG technicians), so I'd have to believe there's the possibility of a 5-MeO-DMT breakthrough skewing results by way of the energetic byproducts.

I theorize towards an explanation like this for the EEG results because there is no mental activity at all when 5-MeO-DMT reaches its peak. It's the selfless void, both everything and nothing, and so amazing as to typically be considered the face of God itself upon experiencing it. Mental activity as we usually think of it drops to absolute zero. The study's interpretation that extreme mental activity creates a secondary doorway to non-duality seems like a potential artifact of the measuring tool in my opinion, though I wouldn't deny such a conjuration of high-activity non-duality might be possible via some other means besides 5-MeO-DMT.

One thing that was missing from their study was the variable of doing meditation while under 5-MeO-DMT. This is something you would possibly be able to comment on regards low dose combined with meditation and the enhancement of both. There is also the added aspect which the study doesn't address, probably because there is no currently accepted framework of understanding but frequent reports we have discussed of activation of the Kundalini system and how this fits into the larger path of development.

Yes, totally agree. I believe low and mid doses of 5-MeO-DMT combined with meditation are where some of the most practical insights can be gained. It doesn't even have to strictly be sitting meditation. What these doses offer best is a guiding light towards authentic mindfulness of the moment when used alongside correct meditative skill and effort. Awareness of the moment may seem like a small thing on its own, but as we've been touching on throughout the discussion, an awful lot of special characteristics click into place automatically once certain thresholds are reached in moment-to-moment awareness. It's as if it enables an entirely different mode in the human operating system.

After experiencing this ultra-present state of Suchness so clearly with the assistance of 5-MeO-DMT, I've been able to more easily recognize it when it's described by spiritual authors.

Adyashanti - Emptiness Dancing:
"The next thing that happened was that I took a step, just an ordinary step. It felt like the way a baby does when it takes his first good step and then smiles and looks around as if to say, “Did you see that?” and you can see his joy. So I took a step, and it was like, “Wow! The first step!” and another step, and then another, and I kept moving in circles because every step was the first step. It was a miracle.

In each “first” step, formless consciousness and Oneness just merged together so that the awakeness that had always identified itself as form was now actually inside of the form, unidentified. It wasn’t looking through any thoughts or memories of what had come before, just through the five senses. With no history or memory, every step felt like a first step.

Then the funniest thought came through my mind—funny to me after 13 years of Zen practice—“Oops. I just woke up out of Zen!” When you wake up, you realize that you wake up out of everything, including all the things that have helped to bring you there."

Av Neryah - Liberation A Spiritual Autobiography:
"One afternoon I was walking down the stairs with the laundry basket when suddenly, without anything changing within the body-mind's perception, there was no basket, no stairs, and no laundry. There was just the visual scenery, sound, and sensations that together create the seamless experience that we call "body walking down the stairs with the laundry basket." Nothing had fundamentally changed in perception, nothing extraordinary had occurred, and yet there was no body walking down, no stairs, and no laundry basket beside the seen, the heard, and the sensed. And it was effulgent, pristine, and flawless."

Famous Zen koan:
"When I heard the sound of the bell ringing, there was no I, and no bell, just the ringing.”

 

[WallyG]

Thank you @Panpsychic and @Here&Now for a fascinating discussion. I am just starting on this path and currently trying to integrate recent experiences. I think I'll hold off the 5MeO for now and go back to baby steps with NN.

Just one comment.

I would assume the Kundalini-based energetic state that's produced is confounding the measurements they're trying to collect.

I'm not sure there is a need to invoke Kundalini here. For me, on high dose 5MeO, the idea of saturation with every neuron in your brain firing at the same time, mirrors my experience. A myriad of objects, situations, and emotions all at once, at a point into which the whole universe has collapsed. After that the brain says "Holy Fuck, I need a rest", and thought stops.

 

[Here&Now]

Thank you @Panpsychic and @Here&Now for a fascinating discussion. I am just starting on this path and currently trying to integrate recent experiences. I think I'll hold off the 5MeO for now and go back to baby steps with NN.

For sure, I'm so appreciative of a forum like this where we can discuss the cross-section between meditation and psychedelics. There are endless wonders waiting for the person who's interested in both, so I'm sure you're in for some fun times.

I'm not sure there is a need to invoke Kundalini here. For me, on high dose 5MeO, the idea of saturation with every neuron in your brain firing at the same time, mirrors my experience. A myriad of objects, situations, and emotions all at once, at a point into which the whole universe has collapsed. After that the brain says "Holy Fuck, I need a rest", and thought stops.

You might very well be correct. Looking back at my earlier comments, I think I was searching for any explanation to justify my belief in the strong parallels between sober meditation states and 5-MeO-DMT states, even to the point of taking a logical leap. For all I know, it may be the case that 5-MeO-DMT produces extreme brain activity of an atypical type, wholly different from our usual language-based thought. And perhaps that alternative type of brain activity actually is a secondary doorway into the legendary non-dual. Until the scientific method is more thoroughly applied to provide additional clarity, who could say for sure?

 

[Panpsychic]

I did see that study and video when it came out recently. Very interesting stuff for sure. I love how so many people are becoming aware of the stark similarities between 5-MeO-DMT and meditation. It opens the door to so much more discovery. If we were to consider meditation as one of the most valuable activities a person can do, then 5-MeO-DMT can perhaps be considered one of the most valuable substances in the world. Who knows what kind of effective utilizations can be discovered through technological advancement?

I would have to agree with this. It applies to all psychedelics but in particular it would seem this one as far as meditative development and a direct connection to the Absolute.

Regarding some of the results of the study, there's one area where I'll be presumptuous. When it comes to the abundance of brain activity seen on the EEG during the 5-MeO-DMT breakthrough, I would assume the Kundalini-based energetic state that's produced is confounding the measurements they're trying to collect. This is difficult to explain and probably even more difficult for some to believe, but what courses through the body during this condition is energy in the literal sense. And without having the evidence to back it up, I claim it's some form of heightened bodily electromagnetism in particular. Even under normal conditions, EEG readings can be distorted by the subtle amounts of electricity generated from gently flexing a muscle (which is a confounding phenomenon known to EEG technicians), so I'd have to believe there's the possibility of a 5-MeO-DMT breakthrough skewing results by way of the energetic byproducts.

I theorize towards an explanation like this for the EEG results because there is no mental activity at all when 5-MeO-DMT reaches its peak. It's the selfless void, both everything and nothing, and so amazing as to typically be considered the face of God itself upon experiencing it. Mental activity as we usually think of it drops to absolute zero. The study's interpretation that extreme mental activity creates a secondary doorway to non-duality seems like a potential artifact of the measuring tool in my opinion, though I wouldn't deny such a conjuration of high-activity non-duality might be possible via some other means besides 5-MeO-DMT.

As has been mentioned, its an open question at present at to the interpretation of the data. While that need not necessarily be the sole explanation as it may be the brain activity itself is of a nature to cause the measurements in the state, I think that is still potentially a revolutionary insight there if indeed there is an effect of higher apparent brain entropy they measured for high dose breakthrough partly correlated with the Kundalini activity. I do believe that the energetic phenomena you describe, whatever its current understanding within our limited framework, will show up and affect such readings.

Yes, totally agree. I believe low and mid doses of 5-MeO-DMT combined with meditation are where some of the most practical insights can be gained. It doesn't even have to strictly be sitting meditation. What these doses offer best is a guiding light towards authentic mindfulness of the moment when used alongside correct meditative skill and effort. Awareness of the moment may seem like a small thing on its own, but as we've been touching on throughout the discussion, an awful lot of special characteristics click into place automatically once certain thresholds are reached in moment-to-moment awareness. It's as if it enables an entirely different mode in the human operating system.

After experiencing this ultra-present state of Suchness so clearly with the assistance of 5-MeO-DMT, I've been able to more easily recognize it when it's described by spiritual authors.

Adyashanti - Emptiness Dancing:
"The next thing that happened was that I took a step, just an ordinary step. It felt like the way a baby does when it takes his first good step and then smiles and looks around as if to say, “Did you see that?” and you can see his joy. So I took a step, and it was like, “Wow! The first step!” and another step, and then another, and I kept moving in circles because every step was the first step. It was a miracle.

In each “first” step, formless consciousness and Oneness just merged together so that the awakeness that had always identified itself as form was now actually inside of the form, unidentified. It wasn’t looking through any thoughts or memories of what had come before, just through the five senses. With no history or memory, every step felt like a first step.

Then the funniest thought came through my mind—funny to me after 13 years of Zen practice—“Oops. I just woke up out of Zen!” When you wake up, you realize that you wake up out of everything, including all the things that have helped to bring you there."

Av Neryah - Liberation A Spiritual Autobiography:
"One afternoon I was walking down the stairs with the laundry basket when suddenly, without anything changing within the body-mind's perception, there was no basket, no stairs, and no laundry. There was just the visual scenery, sound, and sensations that together create the seamless experience that we call "body walking down the stairs with the laundry basket." Nothing had fundamentally changed in perception, nothing extraordinary had occurred, and yet there was no body walking down, no stairs, and no laundry basket beside the seen, the heard, and the sensed. And it was effulgent, pristine, and flawless."

Famous Zen koan:
"When I heard the sound of the bell ringing, there was no I, and no bell, just the ringing.”

We are really getting into the nitty gritty regards meditative development here and it makes sense why this is not for everyone and not recreational. There is bridge to cross regards doing it; the physiologic effects like respiratory depression have also been associated with some of the higher meditation states. Perhaps beyond euphoria and dysphoria. Its serious, not necessarily 'fun' in that sense. And why would it be? Do people attend silent meditation retreats for months or years mainly for this purpose? Likewise with the Kundalini syndrome that you describe. Healing but also very difficult and can be destabilising.

This is where, based on all the descriptions I would strongly disagree with the way 5-MeO-DMT has sometimes been framed currently as 'the pinnacle of psychedelics' and as if making people in the community feel they have missed out if they hadn't had the experience and it something that needs to be done to complete ones psychedelic bucket list journey. It surely will punish and traumatize people who go in with the wrong intentions.

Not all are ready or indeed inclined towards nor should be working at the 7th chakra level or generally pursuing total dissolution into Godhead, just as most are not suited to more of a renunciant or hermetic lifestyle.

If we extend the framework we are using we might think of a more conducive 5-MeO-DMT lifestyle, both fostered by the substance and drawing those with an interest to it, which to me seems akin to more of the ascetic path, and fostering conditions for operating at the causal level we have discussed.

I have likewise noticed a strong correspondence between people who use 5-MeO-DMT and interest in meditation and contemplative practices, much more so than the usual levels of crossover with psychedelics in general.

In fact, this seems to fit because even on the spritual path most are not shooting for Nibbāna or Moksha, or what we have been discussing as the causal level or Clear Light level. That is akin to dedicating ones life to the spiritual path and the highest goal, and renouncing the world to varying degrees such as the monastic life. Most prefer to aim for joy in this life or perhaps rebirth in a deva plane. I know the question of rebirth is not accepted by all but it is a common view in pretty much all the mystic traditions as well as advanced psychedelic insights.

One may think this is overstated but that is not the case. Precisely the issues that can occur with ego inflation and spiritual bypassing, are I think because people are accessing these deep states without a conducive lifestyle for integration and working at these levels.

The corresponding states of mind that one may attain are associated with varying levels of reality , experience and even existence.


You may have something to comment on regards this but it aligns strongly with some of what we have been discussing, at least conceptually and is a counter to a common view with psychedelics that it is all about peak experiences and now deep one goes or how far the molecule can take you:


"It is not the quality of the "experience" (which may range from a Near Death Experience to Nirvikalpa Samadhi) that determines rank in the Samadhi hierarchy --- but to what degree vasanas (or mental fetters that bind one to suffering and rebirth) are permanently destroyed, or (as in his own case) already highly evolved --- upon re-entering phenomenal life. This appears to determine the level of Enlightenment one manifests after the Advaitic experience- which can range from remaining in a state of relative ignorance to becoming a jivanmukta like Ramana."

Nirvikalpa Samadhi, Sahaja Samadhi

This is the key and the great benefit of the synergy of meditation and psychedelics where one cannot replace the other, in using the experiences at whatever level they are operating on to reduce and eliminate these latent egoic tendencies and moving towards a lifestyle that is ever more conducive to this process.