5-MeO-DMT with meditation

[NotTwo]

A few thoughts on combining DMT and 5-MeO-DMT with meditation ...

I've smoked DMT for around two years now and have experimented with 5-MeO for the last four or five months. I basically only use these two substances as a tool to try to understand non dualism. (Understand is the wrong verb here and non dualism is just another way of saying that which is so do excuse my way of expressing that.)

I generally follow up DMT with an hour's meditation. I actually find DMT very supportive for meditation, especially as I don't follow a particular practise, I just sit in being for want of a better way to put it. DMT nearly always produces some degree of loss of self for me. As I come out of the experience I can usually say "there is no one here, there is no person" and it resonates as fully true and that will start the meditation.

My experiences with 5-MeO have been distinctly different. With a release dose - or even sub-release - there is simply the apprehending of the ground of being well beyond any personalization and beyond intellect. As one exits there may be a couple of minutes of partial understanding of the truth but after that one is almost dumped back into being a person. It's taken me a lot of sessions to start to understand how to use that post session phase. 5-MeO offers you none of the support that DMT does and it takes considerable concentration and will to follow through with something valuable in meditation.

What I'm finding now is the most useful way to use 5-MeO in conjunction with meditation is to take distinctly less that a release dose, usually around 6 or 7 mg, and then go straight into sitting. The first few minutes will be fairly startling but if you're ready to take it on from there with silent observation of everything that arises, the meditation can be extremely profound and insightful. The experience can be remarkably similar to a full release dose. You may need a top up after 30 minutes, or smoking a small amount of harmalas 20 minutes before will extend it to full hour. (I know there are reports suggesting negative effects with this combination but I've found none whatsoever when combining 15 mg of harmala with 7 mg of 5-MeO!)

Just my experiences so far. I'm still very much a novice with these experiments.

 

[Sherlockian_Holmes]

Sounds interesting. Continuous luck? How deep stages of meditation are you getting into? Are you reaching the jhanas?

The first meditation of form (first jhana) includes the three primary factors of the one-pointed noticing and experiencing of the object, rapture in the experience, and bliss in the rapture. In the second meditation of form, the meditator lets go of the relatively gross factors of noticing and experiencing of the object and perceives the rapture and bliss of the one pointedness. In the third meditation of form the person then detaches from the sense of rapture and perceives the one-pointed bliss, a less "agitated" state. In the fourth meditation of form the meditator relinquishes even the quality of bliss and perceives only one-pointed undisturbed equanimity.

Let me know what you think - thanks.

 

[Non Dua Natura]

Longtime psychonaut and meditator here with substantial retreat experience, some degree of mastery of the "rupa jhanas", i.e the four concentrative states mentioned by SH in his reply, and full access to the arupa jhanas, i.e. the formless realms. I mention this only to demonstrate that my descriptions are going to be based on the phenomenology observed over the last 20 years of diverse practices, rather than simply speculation or book knowledge.

I can get where you're coming from in your descriptions, however I would suggest that 5-MeO-DMT is considerably less useful in a meditative context for many reasons.

Without getting overly technical or clouding the water, DMT tends to reveal the non-actual clear light which is a different ball game entirely to the actual clear light. The way in which the entire perceptual field opens and the gestalt can be seen is pretty much standard, however most lack the meditative chops and insight to put this to use. Yes, there is a complete and total annihilation of "I" within the state, however, as you've seen for yourself, it doesn't take long before the entire illusion is rebuilt and you're back in dualistic experiencing again.

What I would suggest is this: Pay close attention to the 'entrance' into hyperspace and, ideally with your eyes opened, look at how 'reality' feels. It's got a 'waiting room' quality to it which, in my experience, is similar to the early Bardo states. Stabilise in this and pay attention to how "you" are experiencing; all sense of doership/agency vanishes within seconds BUT try to turn attention to what you previously experienced as a 'center point' or localised sense of consciousness. As the state fades, maintain equanimity and watch very carefully. Unless you've completely killed the I-maker which, based on your descriptions you haven't, you'll experience something like a crystallization of attention around the center of your head. If you turn attention to this directly, it'll shift and seem like it's some sort of observing consciousness located 'up and out' from the back of your head. Unless the sense of observer is dissolved - which leads to a completely unified sensefield which is very much like the initial few moments of a DMT trip, i.e. there is no longer any distinction between each sense door - there will always be this apparent sense of centrality in your experience.

The trick to 'flipping' this thing into non-duality is basically smashing opposites together so that all apparent opposites are revealed to be two faces of the same coin. This is easy to think your way into, but without that experiential 'flip' wherein that centrality is 'untied' it's purely head knowledge and will not permeate your everyday experience. Even after the 'flip' occurs, there's still a lengthy period of integration required, even though you may feel as though you're 'done' and that you've finally torn the curtains down. Beware at this stage as it's easy to fall into total delusion or lose the ability to manage your everyday business. I've seen people end up completely psychotic when the "I" is killed off once and for all because they lacked the required stability and equipoise to manage the change in experience.

Tryptamines seem to be quite unique in their ability to reveal. 5-MeO-DMT, in my experience, is just too fast and intense to manage in the moment. Yes, the afterglow can be wonderful and useful, but you really, really need to be able to stabilise concentration to put it to any sort of use. Furthermore, even as an avid psychonaut, I'm still inclined to advise people to be wary of what they experience under the influence of whatever substance is being used as, again without sufficient experience and stability, delusion is all too easy to fall into. The states and experiences available to the committed psychonaut are so intense and direct that it's easy to start believing everything you see or to come out to the state with the idea that you've been given some sort of special experience and can now tell the world of your insights. This will blow up in your face, undoubtedly. I'm not saying this to discourage you or saying that your descriptions aren't valid, it's simply a caveat based on my own experience and on the various psychotic breaks that both intensive meditation and intensive use of psychedelics can bring about. On the plus side, those breaks tend to be side-effects of dissolution but they can be very, very unpleasant for all parties concerned.

Hope this helps but don't hesitate to ask whatever you like. If I can't answer, I should be able to point you in the direction of someone who can!

The first meditation of form (first jhana) includes the three primary factors of the one-pointed noticing and experiencing of the object, rapture in the experience, and bliss in the rapture. In the second meditation of form, the meditator lets go of the relatively gross factors of noticing and experiencing of the object and perceives the rapture and bliss of the one pointedness. In the third meditation of form the person then detaches from the sense of rapture and perceives the one-pointed bliss, a less "agitated" state. In the fourth meditation of form the meditator relinquishes even the quality of bliss and perceives only one-pointed undisturbed equanimity.

One-pointedness is a quality of the 1st jhana and I would suggest being careful when using this term in advising someone on their practice. One-pointedness (ekaggata) dissolves upon entry into the 2nd jhana and is replaced by a more inclusive attentional field wherein the object is perceived as a whole. 3rd jhana pushes attention out towards the periphery and turns the focus to the ending of sensation. 4th jhana is all about equanimity but, again, the one-pointedness is no longer present. Technically speaking, attainment of 4th jhana typically results in access to appanakam samadhi, i.e. breathless samadhi.

Also, one-pointedness should be understood correctly: While there is effort to maintain focus on the object, it should never be forced or harsh. A good analogy is that of house-training a puppy - You place attention gently onto the object when it moves away from it, just as you would gently place a puppy back on the newspaper when it goes to pee on your carpet. You wouldn't grab the puppy by the scruff of the neck and shove it to the newspaper, so apply the same gentleness with attention and your practice will benefit greatly.

 

[Intezam]

...I'm still inclined to advise people to be wary of what they experience under the influence of whatever substance is being used as, again without sufficient experience and stability, delusion is all too easy to fall into....

:? Can you try go a little deeper into the possible or likely nature of these delusions? Thanks

 

[Sherlockian_Holmes]

Longtime psychonaut and meditator here with substantial retreat experience, some degree of mastery of the "rupa jhanas", i.e the four concentrative states mentioned by SH in his reply, and full access to the arupa jhanas, i.e. the formless realms. I mention this only to demonstrate that my descriptions are going to be based on the phenomenology observed over the last 20 years of diverse practices, rather than simply speculation or book knowledge.

Did DMT aid you in this quest?

Without getting overly technical or clouding the water, DMT tends to reveal the non-actual clear light which is a different ball game entirely to the actual clear light. The way in which the entire perceptual field opens and the gestalt can be seen is pretty much standard, however most lack the meditative chops and insight to put this to use. Yes, there is a complete and total annihilation of "I" within the state, however, as you've seen for yourself, it doesn't take long before the entire illusion is rebuilt and you're back in dualistic experiencing again.

Does this happen even at very high oral doses of DMT? I've heard some people claim long-lasting total annihilation of the "I" and a complete absorption into pure awareness.

The trick to 'flipping' this thing into non-duality is basically smashing opposites together so that all apparent opposites are revealed to be two faces of the same coin. This is easy to think your way into, but without that experiential 'flip' wherein that centrality is 'untied' it's purely head knowledge and will not permeate your everyday experience. Even after the 'flip' occurs, there's still a lengthy period of integration required, even though you may feel as though you're 'done' and that you've finally torn the curtains down. Beware at this stage as it's easy to fall into total delusion or lose the ability to manage your everyday business. I've seen people end up completely psychotic when the "I" is killed off once and for all because they lacked the required stability and equipoise to manage the change in experience.

Yes, my attained friend has told me many times that the mastery of the four rupa-jhanas is integral to one's development, because without the development of the equanimity and bliss of the 3rd and fourth jhãna, one will not a fully capable experience in the immaterial realms.

Tryptamines seem to be quite unique in their ability to reveal. 5-MeO-DMT, in my experience, is just too fast and intense to manage in the moment. Yes, the afterglow can be wonderful and useful, but you really, really need to be able to stabilise concentration to put it to any sort of use. Furthermore, even as an avid psychonaut, I'm still inclined to advise people to be wary of what they experience under the influence of whatever substance is being used as, again without sufficient experience and stability, delusion is all too easy to fall into. The states and experiences available to the committed psychonaut are so intense and direct that it's easy to start believing everything you see or to come out to the state with the idea that you've been given some sort of special experience and can now tell the world of your insights. This will blow up in your face, undoubtedly. I'm not saying this to discourage you or saying that your descriptions aren't valid, it's simply a caveat based on my own experience and on the various psychotic breaks that both intensive meditation and intensive use of psychedelics can bring about. On the plus side, those breaks tend to be side-effects of dissolution but they can be very, very unpleasant for all parties concerned.

What is your take on harmalas by themselves as meditation aid; do you have any experience with them?

One-pointedness is a quality of the 1st jhana and I would suggest being careful when using this term in advising someone on their practice. One-pointedness (ekaggata) dissolves upon entry into the 2nd jhana and is replaced by a more inclusive attentional field wherein the object is perceived as a whole. 3rd jhana pushes attention out towards the periphery and turns the focus to the ending of sensation. 4th jhana is all about equanimity but, again, the one-pointedness is no longer present. Technically speaking, attainment of 4th jhana typically results in access to appanakam samadhi, i.e. breathless samadhi.

This is true, but especially it is important to note that if done correctly, in third jhãna there will not be a pulse, and on an EEG the person will appear to be dead but with spikes every two-three hours in this absorption.

Also, one-pointedness should be understood correctly: While there is effort to maintain focus on the object, it should never be forced or harsh. A good analogy is that of house-training a puppy - You place attention gently onto the object when it moves away from it, just as you would gently place a puppy back on the newspaper when it goes to pee on your carpet. You wouldn't grab the puppy by the scruff of the neck and shove it to the newspaper, so apply the same gentleness with attention and your practice will benefit greatly.

Yes, this is also correctly. Some people liken it to holding jelly it's one hand, too tense a pressure and you squish it, too loose and it falls out of your hand. One needs to have a "loving attention" or absorption into the object of concentration.

I am very interested to hear from you, given your experience with the rupa-jhãnas and immaterial jhãnas whether you actually found psychedelics helpful or as many teachers say, simply a hindrance that leads to similar states as those the Buddha had reached before his proper awakening from his previous teachers.

Thank you for writing here, it's wonderful to have someone with actual experience talking about cultivation phenomena. This is not very common here on this forums, I find.

 

[nexalizer]

Fascinating thread.. keep going :thumb_up:

 

[NotTwo]

Sounds interesting. Continuous luck? How deep stages of meditation are you getting into? Are you reaching the jhanas?

Yes, I wasn't thinking about meditation in a particular context. I did practise mindfulness of breathing for many hours a day in a Theravada Buddhist context some 30 years ago and after a year or so did start to experience jhanas now and again. However it wasn't until a couple of decades later, following on from a near death experience as it so happens, that I was suddenly hit by what is when walking to work one morning. So it didn't last but it's returned many times and means that I don't "practise" anything anymore.

A release dose of 5-meo, at least for me, means returning to what you are, it is, what is, the absolute, god. So in every day life the manifest world seems to get priority along with some sort of belief in being a person acting within a real universe out there. But I think 5-meo offers a route back the original experience too. People return to the experience spontaneously sometimes; after a while you can find ways to jump start this. As the experience is beyond conceptual thinking and beyond memory it can't be brought about by the thinking mind as such however a small amount of 5-meo and then taking focus off the outward manifestation of things (what I mean by meditation here) allows return to the full state.