A/B vs STB Comparison (pics) + FINAL TALLY!

[jbark]

UPDATE:

STB

I freeze precipped Pulls 4 & 5 (pics below). After pouring off the naptha and letting the residual naptha/moisture evaporate under a fan for 7 hours, the crystals looked goopy and yellower than any I have ever seen!! I scraped them up - a few stayed crystalline, but most became a resinous goop that adhered to the razors... I don't even know how to weigh this guck without losing half to the weighing tray! Are all STBs this dirty? Is it because the naptha is heated? if so, why would it not have happened to pulls 1,2 & 3? Can I even re-x this stuff cleanly? Sounds like I have a lot of additional work in store before I can even weigh my yield...:shock:

"A/B"

Pulled the first naptha layer and placed aside. It was surprisingly yellow (again, perhaps the heating?) I added more naptha for a second pull, heated as per the tek. 12 hours later, there was a slight emulsion... curious, no emulsion on the first pull, but yelowish naptha, and now a fine emulsion between the layers... I added 2 teaspoons of Lye (one per jar) and am waiting to see...

I'll keep you all posted. Any input greatly appreciated. I am trying to be thorough and meticulous with the methodology, but still have meagre extraction experience.

thanks, JBArk

 

[endlessness]

STB

I don't even know how to weigh this guck without losing half to the weighing tray! Are all STBs this dirty? Is it because the naptha is heated? if so, why would it not have happened to pulls 1,2 & 3? Can I even re-x this stuff cleanly?

You can weigh by weighing a petri dish or small container with the razor on top of the container. Then scrape it all up, and put the razor with the goo on top of the container and subtract final weight by the razor+container weight.

Not all STBs are this dirty.. Chances of oily product increase with heat, with later pulls, and with drying under a fan. I suggest drying after freeze precip by first pouring out naphtha, then putting the lid back on, turning upside down and into the freezer for another couple of hours. Most of the remaining naphtha will drop off to the lid. Then just remove lid and finish drying. In any case if it still becomes a goo (or in your case, that it is already a goo), recrystalize it. Recrystalization can definitely clean that up, yes.

"A/B"

It was surprisingly yellow (again, perhaps the heating?) ...

curious, no emulsion on the first pull, but yelowish naptha, and now a fine emulsion between the layers

As for the yellow, there's a lot of speculation but I dont think anybody knows for sure what it is. It may mean more alkaloids, it may mean more plant oils or other impurities, or a mixture of this all, or who knows... But it all works anyways, so thats what matters, right?

Another trick to take care of emulsions is vibrations. You can keep tapping on the container, or put it on top of a vibrating machine (like a washing machine). Or yeah, insist on lye, waiting, and salt too, as we talked about. Another thing is, if the emulsion layer is very small, you can just separate as much as possible and leave the emulsion behind. If there's still more pulls to do, you will anyways add more naphtha, and if its the last pull, the amount of alkaloids in a small layer should be negligible.

 

[Trickster]

You can weigh by weighing a petri dish or small container with the razor on top of the container. Then scrape it all up, and put the razor with the goo on top of the container and subtract final weight by the razor+container weight.

That would have been be correct if all petri dishes were born the same. But weighing dozens of grams they could differ in weight + or - hundreds of milligrams. That would make your calculations way off the mark.

I would suggest the following procedure.

You weigh the dish with its content. Then you scrape off its content and weigh the empty dish. Substract the latter ftom the former.

 

[SnozzleBerry]

You can weigh by weighing a petri dish or small container with the razor on top of the container. Then scrape it all up, and put the razor with the goo on top of the container and subtract final weight by the razor+container weight.

That would have been be correct if all petri dishes were born the same. But weighing dozens of grams they could differ in weight + or - hundreds of milligrams. That would make your calculations way off the mark.

I would suggest the following procedure.

You weigh the dish with its content. Then you scrape off its content and weigh the empty dish. Substract the latter ftom the former.

Trickster, you essentially suggested the same thing as endlessness. I think you missed what he suggested. He was saying weigh the razor blade and petri dish to get X weight. Then scrape up all of your dmt onto said razor blade and put it back on the petri dish, weigh it to give you Y weight. Then subtract X from Y to get the weight of the spice. No need for standardized petri dishes as only one is being used, just as in your suggestion

 

[jbark]

Just getting it off the aluminum foil is going to prove tricky - it's stuck like candy! I think I will cut around the goopy spice, clean and re-x and remove the foil as soon as all has dissolved from it. I may lose a little, but it'll be clean...

JBArk

 

[Trickster]

You can weigh by weighing a petri dish or small container with the razor on top of the container. Then scrape it all up, and put the razor with the goo on top of the container and subtract final weight by the razor+container weight.

That would have been be correct if all petri dishes were born the same. But weighing dozens of grams they could differ in weight + or - hundreds of milligrams. That would make your calculations way off the mark.

I would suggest the following procedure.

You weigh the dish with its content. Then you scrape off its content and weigh the empty dish. Substract the latter ftom the former.

Trickster, you essentially suggested the same thing as endlessness. I think you missed what he suggested. He was saying weigh the razor blade and petri dish to get X weight. Then scrape up all of your dmt onto said razor blade and put it back on the petri dish, weigh it to give you Y weight. Then subtract X from Y to get the weight of the spice. No need for standardized petri dishes as only one is being used, just as in your suggestion

You're right. I just thought that the spice is already in the petri dish.

 

[jbark]

WTF!!!!!!

(see pics below)

A/B

So after 2 successful pulls, I added the same amount of heated naptha to each jar. A very thin swampy emulsion appeared, so i added more lye to each jar (2 tsp full). The emulsion was still present, so I added 2 tsp of regular (iodized) table salt. One jar cleared up completely, the other exhibited a layer of barely translucent dark burgundy liquid!! I added another tsp and a half of lye to that jar and mixed it, but it remained the same - no visible emulsion, just a layer of cabernet sauvignon on the top where there should be naptha!!

The pics are below - one is a proper exposure and one is a few stops over-exposed to show the 2 layers (a proper exposure does not demarcate the layers...)

Anyone experience this before or know what caused it? And why only in one of the 2 jars that contined the same materials and were subjected to the same treatment and environmental conditions...

This is why chemistry was my only mediocre subject grade-wise in school...!

(BTW ignore exact colours - they were shot against a foliage background, so a little green/yellow in the transparency is normal)

JBArk

 

[Trickster]

Anyone experience this before or know what caused it? And why only in one of the 2 jars that contined the same materials and were subjected to the same treatment and environmental conditions...JBArk

Wow! That's very much like swim's result of PanoraMIX extraction. Her attempts to freeze-precip and re-x failed. Only after a mini A/B she managed to get clean heptane.

In swim's experience after a more typical A/B heptane has almost no coloration.

 

[jbark]

Anyone experience this before or know what caused it? And why only in one of the 2 jars that contined the same materials and were subjected to the same treatment and environmental conditions...JBArk

Wow! That's very much like swim's result of PanoraMIX extraction. Her attempts to freeze-precip and re-x failed. Only after a mini A/B she managed to get clean heptane.

In swim's experience after a more typical A/B heptane has almost no coloration.

was your heptane burgundy like the naptha on the right?

 

[Trickster]

Anyone experience this before or know what caused it? And why only in one of the 2 jars that contined the same materials and were subjected to the same treatment and environmental conditions...

Also recently swim ended up with the same dirty heptane from a very different extraction - IPA extraction in a home-made extractor, followed by an A/B. IPA is notorious for non-selectivity and pulls a lot of useless stuff: oils, tars, etc.. So, meybe somehow you've pulled them too.

Disclaimer: Swim is also not a chemist.

 

[Trickster]

was your heptane burgundy like the naptha on the right?

Swim's heptane color was very close to what is on your pictures.

 

[Trickster]

was your heptane burgundy like the naptha on the right?

You may check for yourself here - PanoraMIX european a/b - A/B - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

She may have named the color incorrectly as brown.

 

[Rivea]

I have not done PanoraMIX, but full A/B. I used heated PE (pentane/hexane) ... 7 pulls and all was clean white without any sign of yellow. All 7 pulls separated into fairly clean layers without emulsions.

In a past extraction I accidentally got water into my spice and got a lot of yellow junk. I dissolved it all in a minimal amount of PE, sucked out the yellow water at the bottom with a syringe, and then freeze precipitated. The result was clean and white, but I lost a lot of mass (about 40-50%) from the original freeze precipitation yellow gunk.

 

[Trickster]

You may read my PanoraMIX saga in that thread. Good luck.

 

[benzyme]

yeah
light aliphatics won't pull tannins or chlorophyll, which is why you won't see much color to it.
those compounds have a lot of OH groups and C=O groups, respectively, which are likely negatively charged at high pH. absolute nonpolars (like pentane, hexane, heptane, etc.) want nothing to do with polar charged groups. they're more interested in hydrocarbons like fats or plastics, which don't have an abundance of proton donors or acceptors, but have mostly carbon-carbon bonds

 

[jbark]

yeah
light aliphatics won't pull tannins or chlorophyll, which is why you won't see much color to it.
those compounds have a lot of OH groups and C=O groups, respectively, which are likely negatively charged at high pH. absolute nonpolars (like pentane, hexane, heptane, etc.) want nothing to do with polar charged groups. they're more interested in hydrocarbons like fats or plastics, which don't have an abundance of proton donors or acceptors, but have mostly carbon-carbon bonds

So Benzyme, any theories as to the above hue conundrum?

I found this in the nexus wiki:

At this point it’s time to recover your DMT freebase into a nonpolar solvent. Xylene and toluene are not recommended for this step, particularly with Mimosa, as they will carry along a red pigment that can end up in your final product (some people extract with these solvents with the explicit intent of extracting the red pigment, which has been reported to be psychoactive itself).

Sounds like this may have occurred in the red hued solvent jar; however, i am using naptha!! It has been suggested that I pull the burgundy naptha and do a "small A/B" on it. I have put it aside and will finish the pulls from the first unaffected jar and freeze precip the total pulls to date in 2 separate steps: 2 pulls from both jars, and 1 from unaffected jar in the first freeze precip, and pulls 4 & 5 from unaffected jar in the second.

Following this, I will do the "small A/B" procedure on the red hued naptha and continue attempting the remaining pulls from the affected jar. At this point I will see if the jar yields red hued naptha a second time...

I developed a theory to explain the phenomena: As per the Panoramix tek, I was using heated naptha. Unfortunately the tek did not specify a target temp, so I assumed it was negligibly important. Perhaps: the naptha was overheated: when the heated naptha went into both jars, it cooled down to an acceptable temp in one jar while i mixed the other; the one thus mixed was mixed with overheated naptha, resulting in the pulling of whatever is contained in that burgundy hue. The second jar to be mixed was mixed with naptha that had cooled just sufficiently not to draw out the redness. Now, the only reason i arrived at this theory was that it was the ONLY environmental variable between the 2 jars. However, it must be noted that the venerable endlessness:wink: disagrees with this theory, so i offer it only for educational, and perhaps eliminational, purposes.

Any thoughts?

Also, to further address the "is panoramix an true A/B?" question, I found this - to my knowledge the only definition of an A/B on the Nexus:

• Acid/Base Extraction – Heat the plant material in water that has been acidified to pH 2-4 with your choice of acid to obtain a solution of the water soluble DMT salt. Hydrochloric, acetic, phosphoric, citric, and tartaric acids have all been used with good result. If you’re using any plant material other than Mimosa, it’s recommended that you follow this route because it lends itself to more thorough purification of the product.

No mention of filtering or heating. Perhaps in my ignorance I am neglecting to refer to a more complete and widely accepted definition of an A/B, but not being a chemist, this is/was the only definition at my disposal. Can anyone offer a more universal definition (with sources)?

And Trickster: I will definitely read through that thread before proceeding. Perhaps it will shed light on my present situation - I can only hope! Thanks for the link.

Cheers,
JBArk

 

[endlessness]

I found this in the nexus wiki:

At this point it’s time to recover your DMT freebase into a nonpolar solvent. Xylene and toluene are not recommended for this step, particularly with Mimosa, as they will carry along a red pigment that can end up in your final product (some people extract with these solvents with the explicit intent of extracting the red pigment, which has been reported to be psychoactive itself).

Sounds like this may have occurred in the red hued solvent jar; however, i am using naptha!!

I thought of the possibility of your naphtha having a small amounts of xylene/other aromatics in it, and this being responsible for some change of the colour.. But then again, its not 'red' being your problem, burgundy/brown seems like a whole different beast, even pulling with aromatics-only doesnt really make this.

Following this, I will do the "small A/B" procedure on the red hued naptha and continue attempting the remaining pulls from the affected jar. At this point I will see if the jar yields red hued naptha a second time...

yeah I think thats the best

I developed a theory to explain the phenomena: As per the Panoramix tek, I was using heated naptha. Unfortunately the tek did not specify a target temp, so I assumed it was negligibly important. Perhaps: the naptha was overheated: when the heated naptha went into both jars, it cooled down to an acceptable temp in one jar while i mixed the other; the one thus mixed was mixed with overheated naptha, resulting in the pulling of whatever is contained in that burgundy hue. The second jar to be mixed was mixed with naptha that had cooled just sufficiently not to draw out the redness. Now, the only reason i arrived at this theory was that it was the ONLY environmental variable between the 2 jars. However, it must be noted that the venerable endlessness:wink: disagrees with this theory, so i offer it only for educational, and perhaps eliminational, purposes.

Any thoughts?

As I said, I do imagine that the heat might have been an important factor because thats the only thing you say you did different, so it must have an influence for sure. My point was that heat alone cannot cause this, and I say because me and many others have heated naphtha, little or much, and this didnt happen.

So I was thinking that it might have been the heat + factor x.. What could be factor x? Im not sure, the first thing that comes to my mind is that you are already using a known 'dirty' solvent that has rust inhibitors and dye. Maybe some kind of reaction happened between the heat + these impurities mixed in with the mimosa? I dont know, at this point its all speculation, dont know if anybody could make a more educated speculation.. What we do know is that heat was at least part of it, and that now you have that problem that has to be fixed.

You could make the pull and let it stand to see if its just suspended particles that will settle? but I guess not.. Then just do the mini A/B

Also as I suggested in the chat, you could do a test, which is to try again (ideally after most extraction is done to not have the problem already again), to have two jars, and make a very warm pull on your mimosa in one, and a colder one in another, see if problem happens again.


Thats what I can think of, for now.. Good luck!

 

[benzyme]

aromatics (which are ring-structures, as opposed to straight-chained hydrocarbons, which aliphatics are) can definitely play a role in pulling tannins and chlorophyll, since they also have ringed-structures. aromatics are more polar than short-chain aliphatics because of electron localization in the ring structure.

 

[Trickster]

As I said, I do imagine that the heat might have been an important factor because thats the only thing you say you did different, so it must have an influence for sure. My point was that heat alone cannot cause this, and I say because me and many others have heated naphtha, little or much, and this didnt happen.

It seems swim and Jbark have very similar inermediate results from the same tek. She also used heat, although she heated the solution to 60C rather than the heptane. It is not important, is it?

So I was thinking that it might have been the heat + factor x.. What could be factor x? Im not sure, the first thing that comes to my mind is that you are already using a known 'dirty' solvent that has rust inhibitors and dye. Maybe some kind of reaction happened between the heat + these impurities mixed in with the mimosa? I dont know, at this point its all speculation, dont know if anybody could make a more educated speculation..

Swim's heptane was of lab grade. It has been used in many other extractions and produced beautiful spice.

What we do know is that heat was at least part of it, and that now you have that problem that has to be fixed.

Hopefully you may use some information from the theard where she described what she did. In the end the spice she got was not that bad

 

[endlessness]

It seems swim and Jbark have very similar inermediate results from the same tek. She also used heat, although she heated the solution to 60C rather than the heptane. It is not important, is it?


Swim's heptane was of lab grade. It has been used in many other extractions and produced beautiful spice.

Very interesting! So my 'bad solvent'+heat theory goes out the window... Now there's seemingly only heat involved, but then how would this explain all the times that heat has been used and this did not happen? What accounts for the 'russian roullette' factor? jbark, please, dont throw your mimosa away at the end and do test with at least a couple of different jars to add plenty of heat, and see if it consistently creates this problem.