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A Compelling Argument to Try Mushrooms

anrchy said:
I know that there have been many suicides of people on mushrooms, I blame the person. Simply because they obviously couldnt handle the dose/situation they took and with education and intelligence you can be better equipped.
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take into account that this is just your POV.
I believe it's much more complicated and the person can't be blamed for their possible negative reaction for example to first high dose trip.
What does education and intelligence have to do with mushrooms messing with your thoughts in a negative manner in case of a bad trip, how are you supposed to handle that?
How can you blame the person if he wants to try or take a high dose?

How for example can you expect the guy who was afraid of the taxi driver to snap out of it just by himself?
If person is under high dose and has incredibly poor judgement, how can you blame the person for his reaction to the effects?

Basically my reply to your mention "no one has died from shrooms" has gone long enough... Just saying that there is a real danger to it for some people which can be incredibly horrible. And that which, can possibly change the "yay mushrooms are fun, lets share this" attitude some people might have. And in exchange bring a much more careful approach to tripping, such as having a sitter each time present etc. Better safe than sorry.
 
One of my best friends, a completely amazing person who seemed like someone psychedelics were made for had a complete breakdown the one time he took LSD with us. He still says it was the worst event of his life, and that he thinks the rest of us are insane for wanting to go through that.

No way to tell, beforehand.
 
tele said:
anrchy said:
I definitely agree that bad things can happen. The first one I personally wouldnt blame mushrooms. The fact that this person did cocaine makes me thing this person was not level headed and should not have been doing mushrooms, let alone while on cocaine.
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That was only one of the three people.

Google can find more than three, I just gave them as example.

How not to blame the mushrooms if without them there wouldn't even be a possibility for something so bad to happen?
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All of this is true..but in reality the % cases like this due to mushrooms or other psychs is very very low..alot more people commit suicide etc with alcohol and other drugs..and due to other issues like family, relationships etc..anything is possible but it is not very likely.

The real issue I think is that people underestimate these things for one, and then jump into it as if it is just some other "drug experience". People in the west often have no clue at all as to what these things can actaully do and how real it can all be. The dont appreciate the traditions built up around these things enough to study them so they have basically zero frame of referance. They also lack a support group of other people experienced with such medicines. Combine all that with a culture that is so overly rational it is like a disease and some people are jsut bound to break(at least temporarily).

This is why people should always start low(unless with a shaman etc), learn about these medicines as much as they can...and build up a personal framework tailored towards managing and integrating such experiences. Without that paradgim built up on an individual level going into such deep experiences is like a baby running out in highwaqy traffic.

Of course that is just my opinion.
 
tele said:
anrchy said:
What is your opinion, tele, on what role the mushrooms played in suicides on mushrooms?
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100% mushrooms fault for messing with the judgement of the people,

here's another example:


He had taken a potent Hawaiian mushroom and became agitated and panicked when he feared a taxi driver was chasing him for an unpaid fare.
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F'n horrible.

The thing is that I'm sure all these people were looking for a nice full blown trip. And even possibly were totally happy and normal before eating them.

If the people who praise the mushrooms would see something like this happen to someone they know I doubt they would ever praise it again.

Of course these are extreme cases, but even a "normal bad trip" can shatter some peoples mentalities. These things are not to be fooled around with as they can mess with your thoughts. The best attitude is "better safe than sorry" if one wants to trip.
Even if one has previous experiences, one should always be careful especially with high doses.

Anrchy: you didn't offend me at all.
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Mushrooms are FAR safer than alcohol use. There is nothing to dispute here.

The is very little impact to that body at ALL from taking mushrooms while alcohol impact almost all fo the bodies vital organs. Psilocin is either broken down into non toxic metabolites or it is reuptaken int the presynaptic serotonin clefts where it is essentially used like the bodies endogenous tryptamine serotonin.

The estimated LD50 for average cubensis mushrooms is around 1 pound dried.... Mushrooms are as safe as it gets physically.

So what if someone committed suicide after taking mushrooms? How in the hell can you blame the mushrooms? Do you blame alcohol for suicides to? What about a rope is it at fault?

Have you actually ever done mushrooms? Even on REALLY high doses 7+grams of cubes your mind stay's in tact. It's nothing like Iboga or even alcohol. Yes your freak out, but you don't freak out and kill yourself unless you were already pondering that before taking mushrooms. ALso if you take to large of a dose you will be incapacitated and won't be able to function enough to kill yourself...or you will just black out.

Look I agree with everyone in this thread about not pushing someone to take a drug. That is stupid.

However it's just as bad to spread fear, uncertainty, and doubt.

As to the original posters question. Just give him the information and let him make up his own mind. Then try them yourself and report back to him. Not much more you really can do IMHO.

Peace.
 
joedirt said:
Yes your freak out, but you don't freak out and kill yourself unless you were already pondering that before taking mushrooms.
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How can you seriously say the people who's cases I posted were pondering that before taking the drug? I think those were obviously not planned deaths but freak accidents.

I believe the reason for their deaths were the mushrooms combined with their own delusional thoughts as the drug had impaired their judgement. Therefore I have a good reason to say that the mushroom is at least partly responsible for their deaths due to it's effect that caused delusional thinking for these people.

How can you say mushrooms don't alter your mind? Aren't bad trips most often triggered by delusional thinking caused by the drugs effect? Yes the mind stays intact as you said but thoughts are easily altered or impaired on high doses.

How about loss of contact with reality that's not rarely described in trip reports?

And btw yes I have taken mushrooms, first time was at early age of 16 and they have given me some awe inspiring trips, but I am saying that there is a real danger to it for some people! Tell me, is it coincidence that a 17 year old for example(a happy tourist probably) takes mushrooms and then dies? How can one not blame the mushroom at least partly?
Well of course you can't blame a plant, but the effects can be blamed, that for some people it simply triggers a horrible experience, even if everything seems normal before taking the drug. The cases presented here were extreme and rare but how about the simple freakouts/bad trips one can read about so often for example at shroomery or erowid? How many of those people were just wanting to get high and to have fun(these could have been too like that)?
Basically yes it can be fun, but it can be many other things too so one should be careful with these substances, especially when presenting them to new people.

I am not spreading fear here like you say, but simply stating that there is a risk to taking mushrooms for some people!
 
tele said:
How can you seriously say the people who's cases I posted were pondering that before taking the drug? I think those were obviously not planned deaths but freak accidents
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Well one was a regular MDMA/Coke user. Who's to say he wasn't coming off a bender with his brain all screwed up from drugs that actually are bad for you? The other was a girl taking them in a horrible set and setting. Did she jump off the building or wander off the building? Who the hell knows?

I believe the reason for their deaths were the mushrooms combined with their own delusional thoughts as the drug had impaired their judgement. Therefore I have a good reason to say that the mushroom is at least partly responsible for their deaths due to it's effect that caused delusional thinking for these people.
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I'm not saying mushrooms can't dramatically increase a persons odds of physical harm if they are used with complete disregard. However taking them in the right context would pretty much never have those results. Just taking them willy nilly with no precautions? Of course you can get hurt doing that. Jesus man they are psychedelics and everyone knows that these things dramatically alter our perception of the world. You'd be a fool to start out taking these out in public or around strangers people/surroundings.

How can you say mushrooms don't alter your mind?
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I simply never said this...nor even came close to implying it. :)

Aren't bad trips most often triggered by delusional thinking caused by the drugs effect? Yes the mind stays intact as you said but thoughts are easily altered or impaired on high doses.
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No most bad trip are triggered by wrong set and setting. Or at least must run away train bad trips are. They also happen when people take to large a dose. You can't blame the drug though. It's all operator error. Take precautions when planning to alter your consciousness so dramatically.

Anyone planning to take a large dose of any psychedelic drug should be smart enough to have a sober sitter around that they trust.

And btw yes I have taken mushrooms and they have given me some awe inspiring trips, but I am saying that there is a real danger to it for some people!
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Oh I don't disagree. There is a very real danger when not used properly...

Tell me, is it coincidence that a 17 year old for example(a happy tourist probably) takes mushrooms and then dies? How can one not blame the mushroom at least partly?
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...properly unlike above.

How about blaming the girl and her friends for not having her do it in the proper atmosphere. Just randomly on vacation wandering the netherlands? Give me a break. That's human error. Not mushroom error. it's widely known that mushrooms totally screw up your perception and that you should not take them out in public.

No one is saying mushrooms aren't dangerous when used incorrectly. What we are saying is that mushrooms are not physically harmful to your body when used in proper amounts, sets, and settings.

I will say this to the OP as well. If you talk another person into taking them for their first time then I believe the burden is partially on your to make sure it's a proper set and setting and dose.

Peace
 
joedirt said:
tele said:
How can you seriously say the people who's cases I posted were pondering that before taking the drug? I think those were obviously not planned deaths but freak accidents
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Well one was a regular MDMA/Coke user. Who's to say he wasn't coming off a bender with his brain all screwed up from drugs that actually are bad for you? The other was a girl taking them in a horrible set and setting. Did she jump off the building or wander off the building? Who the hell knows?
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And the third person thought the taxi driver was chasing him, simply because his mind was altered by the drug.

Anyway, I just stated my POV on the matter and you stated yours.

This matter is so dark that I think I have discussed it enough and definately don't want to discuss it further.
 
All I have to add is that I took a quarter of mushrooms, then my brother took us to a strip club. Set and setting is everything. (and no, I did not have a good time)
 
Set, setting, and possibly a travel companion to help guide the journey are all important. I'm the go-to guy for everyone I know when it comes to psychedelics, I take pride in this but I've made mistakes too. A best friend of mine decided to trip a bit on an 1/8, I made a comment, jokingly, that I'd kill him(I know, sounds bad, but context is important) anyway, comment made his trip turned from happy-go-lucky to bad REEEAAAL fast. And he didn't come back for a couple days, its been about 5 years now and I can't live it down, nor would I want to, cuz it opened my eyes to the sensitivity of a traveler. Good memories, good scenery, and good tunes are a good way to go. Just mind what you say and do and you'll be set.
 
"Tell me, is it coincidence that a 17 year old for example(a happy tourist probably) takes mushrooms and then dies? How can one not blame the mushroom at least partly?"

I would actually say that yes, it is very possible that it is a coincidence. People commit suicide all the time without any substances involved at all..people do these things for all kinds of reasons. Just because someone ends their life while on mushrooms does not necessarily mean that the mushrooms contributed to this. We also dont know if she was a happy tourist or not at all..why is it that she was probably a happy tourist? What else do we know other than that she(or the other guy) was coked out and then killed her/himself, and just happend to eat some mushrooms as well? Nothing. Speculation is pointless.

It is just like the Brett Chidester thing..where his parents blamed his death on his salvia use..completely ignoring the fact that he was already put on other meds before he even used salvia and had a number of problems with his parents and life already..
 
jamie said:
"Tell me, is it coincidence that a 17 year old for example(a happy tourist probably) takes mushrooms and then dies? How can one not blame the mushroom at least partly?"

I would actually say that yes, it is very possible that it is a coincidence. People commit suicide all the time without any substances involved at all..people do these things for all kinds of reasons. Just because someone ends their life while on mushrooms does not necessarily mean that the mushrooms contributed to this. We also dont know if she was a happy tourist or not at all..why is it that she was probably a happy tourist? What else do we know other than that she(or the other guy) was coked out and then killed her/himself, and just happend to eat some mushrooms as well? Nothing. Speculation is pointless.
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As I said earlier I don't want to continue discussing this, but I'll reply this:
I say probably a happy tourist because she was on a school trip from france, at least most likely a normal person. But yes we can't tell for sure without knowing her.

You stated again just as joedirt only the two cases(and speculating ), while in the third it was obvious what happened, the person was afraid that the taxi driver was chasing him and died. Which was obviously due to poor judgement caused by the effects of the drug.How did not the drug contribute in this case for sure? The two we can't tell for certain, even though it's likely that they wouldn't have done it without the drug.
I don't think blaming or protecting the mushrooms is smart, but simply by looking at the information available I am giving my thoughts on the subject.

I will no longer write to this topic as I really feel unpleasant talking about peoples deaths(especially when we don't know these people), I just stated my POV on the matter as I have the right to do so and I am not making anything up myself, just giving my thoughts on the matter.
Please no need to continue this discussion about death, as I can be wrong but so can you be wrong, too. Just shared my POV, enough said. The most this discussion can progress is you or someone else blaming me wrong or me protecting my point of view, which is good enough reason for me not to write about this unpleasant matter any more.
 
i just don't understand why you said its "100% the mushrooms fault", especially when considering all the other possible factors people here have mentioned that we aren't sure about

psychedelics are like any vehicle. you can take it to the top of the mountain and watch the eclipse..or you can drive it off a cliff. To solely blame the car for such a disaster would be pretty odd. I mean you could say mushrooms contributed because they alter perception etc..but thats what you sign up for when ingesting and its the risk we all choose to take. so ultimately I think it boils down to set and setting for the most part..the context in which its taken is very important and people need to be careful. These things (in part) spark a hyperactive imagination, and hyper-suggestibility. An intense combination- so obviously people need to be aware of this and proceed with caution.
 
I feel this topic may have gone off point... Speculation is only speculation, opinion only matters if someone disagrees. Agree to disagree, and be don't with it.
 
"A Compelling Argument to Try Mushrooms"

Such a thing seems a little odd. When someone has an interest in mushrooms and feels ready, they should try them. If you see someone who you feel might benefit from the use of mushrooms, perhaps there are pieces of information that should be shared...but to make a "compelling argument" strikes me as unnecessary. There's no sense in compelling someone to use psychedelics. Just present them with accurate information and leave the choice up to them.

If we accept one of the many things T. McKenna stated, the psychedelic experience is as human and as sacred as sex. As much as we may be surprised to find that someone has held off on sex for whatever reason and for however long, I would be shocked to hear of someone trying to 'compel' someone else to have sex. Imo, it's no difference with experiencing entheogens. To each their own, and in their own time.
 
Also, I don't understand why people think that 2g is a "safe" dose...

I, for example am VERY sensitive to psychedelics, 0.5g of shrooms is heavy level 3 trip. I already did 2g, and it was very strong trip I can only describe as multiple ego splitting, something like schizophrenia I guess, my previous experiences helped me survive.

So please, please, don't ever tell someone to take 2g for the first time, even if most of population will have a light/normal trip, there are those of us for whom it can be dangerous. Always start at 0.5-1g and build up from there.

Peace.
 
This thread really exploded. Some really good discussion that leaves me with plenty to ponder about not only my own situation but those of others. The only reason myself or anyone else would need or think that they need to present an argument to get someone to try an entheogen or other substance is because of the prevailing attitude of people towards these substances. I happen to think that psychedelics are for MOSTLY EVERYONE whether they know it or not, but certainly they need to be in the right frame of mind going into the experience. I embrace the idea that psychedelics offer important insight into our lives and the universe that we all can benefit from--that it's not so much a matter of wanting to do them but instead needing to do them. The less someone wants to do something, such as smoking cannabis, it might be that he/she needs to confront some issue and the more it might help in balancing his/her life. I think we all know people (including ourselves) that should be more active and eat healthier and who know objectively that they should do those things but don't for whatever reason. Maybe that person has a cardiovascular event or suffers an injury when exercising, but then was it wrong to have started exercising?

I don't believe that anyone should convince anyone else to do something they don't want to do, but when they don't have an appropriate frame of reference or are locked into a certain way of thinking, maybe having a friend they trust to ease them into the experience is what is needed. Any and every human being should have the freedom to make choices for themselves, but sometimes people make bad choices that they are convinced are the right one. This pattern is a plague upon society as we know it. In the age of the internet, everyone has access to the truth and hopefully my friend will find it. Amen.
 
amazingino said:
Also, I don't understand why people think that 2g is a "safe" dose...

I, for example am VERY sensitive to psychedelics, 0.5g of shrooms is heavy level 3 trip. I already did 2g, and it was very strong trip I can only describe as multiple ego splitting, something like schizophrenia I guess, my previous experiences helped me survive.

So please, please, don't ever tell someone to take 2g for the first time, even if most of population will have a light/normal trip, there are those of us for whom it can be dangerous. Always start at 0.5-1g and build up from there.

Peace.
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Have you taken into account different strains? I've taken a gram of one strain that floored me. Yet the stuff i have in the freezer it would take 3+ to do the same. And the strain I had before that 2 grams was completely different experience. Completely
 
All I know is this. If you get drunk as possible, and then get in a car and drive, it was your poor judgement. When it comes to mushrooms, we dont have the safe environments built for a perfect trip. We dont have people available that are knowledgeable in how to "give" people a journey on psychs.

Except for us. I have taken many people on shroom journeys. i would claim myself as close to expert on it as a civilian with no scientific background can get. I understand the if ands and buts. Set and setting is half of it, but the patients mind is the other half. I don't ever give anything to anyone unless I know what they can handle.

Poor judgement turns into NO judgement on high enough doses. If you are running from fear from a taxi driver you took too much. PERIOD. Not only that what was that guy doing, doing mushrooms, where he could get into that situation. He has HIMSELF to blame only. You dont drink everclear and then get in a raft in the middle of the atlantic ocean. And you dont do a high enough dose of mushrooms in a city to where you have NO judgement.

He should have had a sitter. There is also the unknown. And like someone said, we take these risks, and you can only blame us. Do these things at your own risk. You have no one and nothing to blame but yourself if something bad happens.
 
And if the idea is that shrooms can impair your judgement and cause you to kill yourself and that it has nothing to do with the persons own thoughts and perceptions before hand, then thats like saying that anyone could randomly commit suicide from simply eating mushrooms. Which is 100% false.
 
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