My friend's pet goldfish recently finished SWIMing in international waters where he was busy experimenting with an acid / base DMT extraction. He learnt a number of important things. 2 attempts where made with approximately 250g of mimosa hostilis each time. The first attempt failed abysmally whereas the second was a great success. The first attempt failed partly because the basified solution and the naptha were not warmed above room temperature before being mixed together. Naptha really does dissolve a lot more DMT when warmed up and without doing this yield is significantly reduced. For best results the naptha and basified solution must be hot when mixed together and then kept above room temperature until separated out. The second reason for failure was due to the naptha and basified solution not separating out once mixed. The reasons the emulsion refused to separate are that firstly the mixture was shaken too hard, rather than tipped up end to end for 5 mins. The second is that my friend's goldfish wasn't sufficiently careful in filtering the mimosa gunk out of the acid before basifying and it seems that a thicker solution makes it harder for the emulsion to separate out. The second attempt was strained through an old cotton T shirt before basifying and then carefully mixed by tipping end to end so that there was no problem with the emulsion not separating. Also the naptha and basified solution where kept hot. This resulted in a yield (before recrystallisation) of just over 1.5 grams DMT from 250g mimosa hostilis. Just thought I'd share the info that my friend's goldfish passed on.
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Acid / Base extractions - leasons learnt
- Thread starter MrM
- Start date
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Rising Star
A couple of tips regarding this post... The best thing to do is to wash your crockpot and then refill it with water turning it on high in order to have yourself a nice hot water bath ready for your solvent pulls. You get the basified solution HOT at the same time that you are getting your solvent HOT. Mix and up-end and then put your jar back into the bath while waiting for separation. This assists both alkaloid migration and separation of the layers. You should have a mirror like surface between the two if it was hot enough. Also, monkeys have found it much easier to do a refridgerator decant of the acidified solution rather than filtering. Put your solution in the fridge and all of the plant sediment will settle and harden at the bottom, then you can just pour off, leaving the nasties goop behind. Much easier and much less messy. Cheers
[quote:ac99011f47="MrM"]My friend's pet goldfish recently finished SWIMing in international waters where he was busy experimenting with an acid / base DMT extraction. He learnt a number of important things. 2 attempts where made with approximately 250g of mimosa hostilis each time. The first attempt failed abysmally whereas the second was a great success. The first attempt failed partly because the basified solution and the naptha were not warmed above room temperature before being mixed together. Naptha really does dissolve a lot more DMT when warmed up and without doing this yield is significantly reduced. For best results the naptha and basified solution must be hot when mixed together and then kept above room temperature until separated out. The second reason for failure was due to the naptha and basified solution not separating out once mixed. The reasons the emulsion refused to separate are that firstly the mixture was shaken too hard, rather than tipped up end to end for 5 mins. The second is that my goldfish wasn't sufficiently careful in filtering the mimosa gunk out of the acid before basifying and it seems that a thicker solution makes it harder for the emulsion to separate out. The second attempt was strained through an old cotton T shirt before basifying and then carefully mixed by tipping end to end so that there was no problem with the emulsion not separating. Also the naptha and basified solution where kept hot. This resulted in a yield (before recrystallisation) of just over 1.5 grams DMT from 250g mimosa hostilis. Just thought I'd share the info that my friend's goldfish passed on.[/quote:ac99011f47] Wow, sounds like things went wrong from the start. One shouldn't have to significantly warm the mixture if it's done correnctly - and the more complex steps involved in an A/B extraction makes it more prone to error vs. a straight to base. This guy I know swears by the straight to base method and suggests that it is next to impossible to use too much lye since it's natural PH is about 13.5 and 13 is excellent for preventing emulsions - he says that even if shaken rapidly, that a properly basified solution will separate in less than two hours even without warming it up or having to do any type of straining. He also says that a pre-recrystallization or pre-wash yield of 1.2 grams on 100 grams high quality root bark is standard policy after 5 total naptha pulls over two days with a mid-way lye booster to the solution and partial evaping the naptha pulls to make sure the spice/naptha concentration is optimal. Your friend's goldfish may need to re-assess his strategy.
Well i'm told the results of the second Acid / base attempt where very satisfactory. Currently the goldfish is experimenting with recrystalisation, which he hasn't done before, so he'll have to wait and see how that goes. Total yield was about 1.9 grams prior to recrystalisation from 250 grams mimosa.
Recrystalisation certainly seemed to help the purity, though the crystals aren't as big as some pictures I've seen. I'm informed that this picture was taken illuminated from beneath by a yellowish torch. [img:c29530d59d]http://aycu17.webshots.com/image/23976/2001955734207297656_fs.jpg[/img:c29530d59d]
Ness, tell that guy you know to NOT take this personally but I always criticize the STB method - it's for lazy hacks. And his 'variation' sounds even less sound. ... wtf is a "lye booster" for ?! Why is one adding the lye anyways..? To etch your glassware or something.? Learn what a pH of 13 really is and what the pKa of dmt is .. or means... He uses Lye to prevent emulsions ... ! Jeebus ! YOu simply don't shake to "prevent emulsions" .. ! Ness .. tell your buddy that it sounds like a nicely contaminated yeild..! What a 'useful' and 'safe' tek that STB method is huh..?! ... to get 1.2 grams of gunk from 100 g MHRB..?! You get a yeild that is impossibly high since all that heating of naphtha on a Lye-stew solution pushed lye into the naphtha.>! .. That definately screwy yeild needs a 'wash' and I'll bet it'll be at more like 0.6 grams then... ... right..?
[quote:ac7479f9b0="zero"]The best thing to do is to wash your crockpot and then refill it with water turning it on high in order to have yourself a nice hot water bath ready for your solvent pulls. You get the basified solution HOT at the same time that you are getting your solvent HOT. Mix and up-end and then put your jar back into the bath while waiting for separation. This assists both alkaloid migration and separation of the layers. You should have a mirror like surface between the two if it was hot enough.[/quote:ac7479f9b0] Well that is exactly what my friend's goldfish did the second time round with the exception that he doesn't own a crockpot so used the kitchen sink filled up from the hot tap to warm both the basified solution and the naptha before and after mixing. Both fluids were kept warm until seperated. The discription you give of the better mixing method is again exactly what was used the second time round. He's never heard of the cold water filtering method before though, so will be sure to give at some point.
[quote:c088f6fd95="El Ka Bong"]Ness, tell that guy you know to NOT take this personally but I always criticize the STB method - it's for lazy hacks. And his 'variation' sounds even less sound. ... wtf is a "lye booster" for ?! Why is one adding the lye anyways..? To etch your glassware or something.? Learn what a pH of 13 really is and what the pKa of dmt is .. or means... He uses Lye to prevent emulsions ... ! Jeebus ! YOu simply don't shake to "prevent emulsions" .. ! Ness .. tell your buddy that it sounds like a nicely contaminated yeild..! What a 'useful' and 'safe' tek that STB method is huh..?! ... to get 1.2 grams of gunk from 100 g MHRB..?! You get a yeild that is impossibly high since all that heating of naphtha on a Lye-stew solution pushed lye into the naphtha.>! .. That definately screwy yeild needs a 'wash' and I'll bet it'll be at more like 0.6 grams then... ... right..?[/quote:c088f6fd95] Luckily this guy I know doesn't listen to serial ranters of the likes of one "El Ka Bong". He knows it's been well established on here that straight to base techniques have been proven easier and superior to outdated acid techs that add un-needed steps (such as heating, mashing, etc...). He also know that the only hacks are the one's that come on here to ramble incessantly about the same points over and over again with no basis for it, or hands on experience to back it up. He also points out (in case you didn't know per your responses) that freeze precip helps clean the product significantly, and cold ammonia washes done correctly only cause a loss of 10 to 15% total yield. The high PH teks done with many naptha pulls over many days simply yields quite a bit more than other teks (which is probably why the so called estimate of spice percentage per bark weight is incorrect, basing it on old extraction techniques. ~1 gram white spice after wash is the reality. My friend assures me that others on this forum are in the same camp as him, and have also gotten these higher yields consistently and would easily debunk your dirty yield claims and rants about poor technique and lye in the products (you do realize that the lye dissolves totally in water, and water is completely insoluble in naptha -- even if it did get in, lye contamination would be obvious because of differing melting points. The El ka bong should stick with the existential thought postings which are sometimes interesting, and avoid the elitist chemist wannabe technique basher rants that are ludicrous, uninformed, and quite simply wrong.
I'm ranting .. not bashing ! ... and getting more 'facts' out in the open .. For eg thanks, ness, I'm sure many of us appreciated the details in your reply... But I still think STB makes no sense when tryptamines are water soluble at pH 4, not 13.5. so I'm asking: Does anyone measure their yield ? .. is any STB tek able to give ayield of 0.5% or more ..? Some one tell us please, because I keep ranting that you can't ! I won't dispute you can get some dmt from STB teks, and sure you can go ahead an purify by recrystalization, washes etc .. Ness you say STB yields 1.0 g of pure dmt from 100 g MHRB..? I'm still incredulous- you mean 1.0 grams of 'crud' maybe !. This isn't pure dmt, you admit it right..?. The yield I am talking about is the final grams of pure dmt obtained from grams of MHRB you used. I mean "pure" as in the clear-glass 3-5 mm long blades of dmt that form in little flowers... And what's with all the 'extra' steps..? It seems like there are more washings and recrystalizations and such required with an STB - am I correct..? These all reduce yield too ... They are needed because the original Lye-soup 'extraction' tek was poor at separating the tryptamines from the rest of the plant crud into solution. So why do people choose to skip the acid step and go STB..? It seems to be because they like to do extra steps like freezer-precip, and wash, and recrystalize .. and gradually reduce yield. Then some folks make claims that STB is 'better' or "superior" ...... ? HOW >>! ? When you throw away half of your yield, what logic makes people choose STB teks..?!? How easy it is to do an A/B and evaporate the naphtha to get at least a 0.7% yield of perfect, uncontaminated crystals, like in that other thread, where the photos make you drool !
Fuck, how many times do I have to post it? Yes, my friend has done side by side comparisons. Yes, STB yields around 10% more than an A/B that's had two overnight cooks in vinegar water and a water rinse. Yes, STB yields around 10% less than an A/B thats had five overnight cooks and a water rinse. Yes, that is comparing yield of clear spice with clear spice. So now I will suggest El Ka Bong that you SHUT THE FUCK UP on this subject until you know FROM EXPERIENCE what you're talking about or are asking a question of someone who does.
[quote:5c66661563="Noman"]Fuck, how many times do I have to post it? Yes, my friend has done side by side comparisons. Yes, STB yields around 10% more than an A/B that's had two overnight cooks in vinegar water and a water rinse. Yes, STB yields around 10% less than an A/B thats had five overnight cooks and a water rinse. Yes, that is comparing yield of clear spice with clear spice. So now I will suggest El Ka Bong that you SHUT THE FUCK UP on this subject until you know FROM EXPERIENCE what you're talking about or are asking a question of someone who does.[/quote:5c66661563] Exactly! thanks Noman. Quit the idiotic ranting el ka bong, and STFU until you can back it up with actual experience and examples - which you obviously can't or you would have done it by now. You spout nothing but second hand info and here say and it makes you out to be nothing more than a ranting fool (which you for some reason want to continue to prove over and over again on this forum). Fact: STB is easier, faster, and yields more pure uncontaminated spice in a shorter time. Yes, quality MHRB can easily yield approximately 1% if a STB tek is done correctly, other's on the forum would surely back this up. So in summary, I second the recommendation that you SHUT THE FUCK UP! on the A/B vs. STB bullshit.
some uppity little grasshoppers out there.. ! I mean to shake the bush you live in, asking you 'is there more' to your understanding, here .. and there >!? and so with your attitudes, don't jump so far from the point of why we are here... .. so to say 'stfu' in a public forum is rather impish ... we're to ask and tell things, quite the opposite. I do speak from some experience, but I want to hear more of all of ours And Noman, you and your experience, citing your numbers are much appreciated. I had not heard any yeild 'numbers' cited before - nobody really has 'accurate' numbers ... so you are just one statistical point to answer that question. If it's just a 10% difference in yeild between STB and A-B, it seems trivial to worry about losing 10% ofone's spice. But I doubt this is true, i.e. not statistically accurate, yet. I'm, not going to go on about this just to quibble, I want to know more of our communal experience - let's hear more 'numbers' ... empirical data, or just anectdotal recovery stories about that time my STB-tek gave me twice (or half) the expected yeild. This could be another 'poll' thread I guess... To answer the question of which tek gives the highest yeild of pure dmt, we'd need to ge an average mean yeild from more than 12 replicate extratctions done STB and 12 done via A-B. This would be done from the SAME huge batch of homogeneously powdered MHRB. You make a null hypothesis that (yeild of dmt freebase via STB) = (yeild dmt freebase via A-B), and then disprove this with a statistical comparison of mean yeild and variance. In such an experiment it is a "mg-sized" yeild to measure, and if there is only a slight % difference between stb and A-B, we will need good scales and practice to keep times, temps and techniques constant. This would be a long project, or you'd have a lab equipped to do it. Noman, your experience shows that it taks 2 - 5 days for an stb to work, but the longer the lye-soak, the less yeild - correct..? Maybe it's just in my opinion, but 'convenience' and 'superiority' of the tek also relate to the time it takes to complete, and that the 'extraction' doesn't destroy th product. A-B can be done in 8 hours, or any overnight soaks at pH 2-4 will not degrade the dmt as an stb will. Isn't this correct..? Ness - please can you explain what is a "lye-booster" for..? Why are we adding lye.? Describe what NaOH does to MHRB ... or is it just me that wonders this..? Can you imagine what the OH- at pH 13.5 is doing, at the level of the dmt molecule...? Is the excessively high pH causing the insoluble dmt to 'clump' together, .. or agglutinate into molecular clusters..? Maybe this is a way of making like-molecules clump with like... a way of chemically 'pushing' the (insoluble) dmt into little gobs..? Maybe this is a 'separation' technique, but what is the resulting yeild... ? I thought the OH was a way to digest into th cellwalls and cellulose of the MHRB. But a pH of 2- 4 will 'digest' the cellulose of the ground MHRB as good as any lye-stew will... So I still get hung up on this analogy- imagine this - God gives you the keys for the Ferrari to Heaven, and to get there 'fast', you can choose to grind through the 8 gears without using the clutch, skipping through gears 2, 4 and 7 - or you could learn how to drive a 'standard' procedure ... Although, at 2-5 days of stewing, it dosn't seem faster to 'drive' alla STB... But don't worry .. There are an infinite amount of Ferarris for us to have - it's true that if you crash in one, just go get another ! Pop through all 8 gears smothly, (in just 8 hours, say) .. and be left with the biggest pile of extractible spice you can obtain. Then get ready to rides God's Rocket ship! And there's the experience of crashing the 'Rocket ship' from having lye-contaminated spice in the bowl ..> ! Anyone know that newbie mistake..?!
[quote:1934ba722f="El Ka Bong"].. so to say 'stfu' in a public forum is rather impish ... we're to ask and tell things, quite the opposite. To answer the question of which tek gives the highest yeild of pure dmt, we'd need to ge an average mean yeild from more than 12 replicate extratctions done STB and 12 done via A-B. Noman, your experience shows that it taks 2 - 5 days for an stb to work A-B can be done in 8 hours, or any overnight soaks at pH 2-4 will not degrade the dmt as an stb will. Isn't this correct..? [/quote:1934ba722f] Well, civility didn't seem to be working. Your insufferability has driven me to being an asshole. When I suggested on an earlier thread that you do a STB on the same batch of bark as your A/B you said that you didn't want to waste your bark and didn't need to because you were a "real" chemist and "knew" that the STB wouldn't work as well. Now you're suggesting twelve? No, you have it exactly opposite. The A/Bs that my friend did took 2 - 5 days and the STB took an evening.
[quote:96e83180d1="El Ka Bong"]Ness, tell that guy you know to NOT take this personally but I always criticize the STB method - it's for lazy hacks. And his 'variation' sounds even less sound. ... wtf is a "lye booster" for ?! Why is one adding the lye anyways..? To etch your glassware or something.? Learn what a pH of 13 really is and what the pKa of dmt is .. or means... He uses Lye to prevent emulsions ... ! Jeebus ! YOu simply don't shake to "prevent emulsions" .. ! Ness .. tell your buddy that it sounds like a nicely contaminated yeild..! What a 'useful' and 'safe' tek that STB method is huh..?! ... to get 1.2 grams of gunk from 100 g MHRB..?! You get a yeild that is impossibly high since all that heating of naphtha on a Lye-stew solution pushed lye into the naphtha.>! .. That definately screwy yeild needs a 'wash' and I'll bet it'll be at more like 0.6 grams then... ... right..?[/quote:96e83180d1] I knew from your first sentence there that your post would mark a decline of civil discussion in this thread. 'Don't take this personally, but...' seriously; has anyone ever used that opening in a reasonable fashion? Your whole method of discussion seems to involve asking exaggerated rhetorical questions to which there is only one answer and using these to discredit other people's viewpoints by association. Finishing with 'huh?' and 'right?' doesn't help you get your point across, it just increases the chance the recipient will take things personally, and the whole ... thing seems like you are giving us poor slow thinking types time to catch up with your far superior complicated reasoning... I don't know what you are really like but reading your prose you come across as angry, arrogant and argumentative.
'frusrated' i'd say, not angry... this is a public forum where we can say all sorts of inane things... you'll forgive me, I assume dot dot dot ! I ain't no chemist ! I just have this cartoon in my head about what I believe I'm doing ! And I'm trying to figure out everyone else's cartoons, and what they think they are doing... dyslexic or not, for 8 days, 2 days, 5 hours or whatever... I am 'frustrated' ( figuratively, here in forum-space) .. by a lack of full-enough-understanding. I mean my lack and everyone else here too - people calling for "lye boosters"... and me claiming yeild sucks wih STB. Lets flushout the truth ... It takes statistical proof, or reams and reams of anecdotal experience to prove STB is a 'sound', and safe tek . Until then me and my precious MHRB will go with A-B ... DrunkyDaBear's other thread might add to this data set- doing a a short-stb ... let's see what happens I am also frustrated that what I see as a less-than-safe-and sound tek is promoted as a "Lazy Man's" method for obtaining dmt - freaking sacrament not to fool with ! and any motives based on 'easy' or lazy access, make me wonder who's at the wheel there... ... I see the STB tek being promoted somewhat in 'ignorance' over the purpose of the A-B method. STB sells as a "quick" or alternative tek, and I think it perhaps is due to the 'lack' of understanding we all have, collectively, that this is happening. I keep piping up since I don' think any real chemist would tell you to do that - concerning what's safe and sound I have a biased notion about what's safe and sound, and we are comparing notes on these points too, aren't we.?
Well I'm angry. And not in quotation marks either. I'm angry at you gunking up every extraction thread with the same know nothing pseudo mystical bullshit. It has been shown over and over that the two procedures produce roughly the same amount of spice with the same amount of cleanliness. You have yet to perform a STB. Yet you think that we should all respect your opinion on the subject. Start your own thread.
The only thing you should be frustrated by El ka bong is your own mental deficiency on this worn out topic. The word Sophomore is a perfect fit for you (it literally means intelligent moron) - you try to come across as a genuine martyr in the pursuit of tek truth, yet you come off as an ignorant A-hole. I'm still bewildered by your total lack of logic on this subject - your long winded post before this one was so filled with holes and inaccuracies that it makes one wonder if you are really that clueless. I'm going to make a couple of points , and then from here on I'm no longer responding to your incessant dribble -- I think if you continue to push your garbage all over this forum then you need to be booted permanently. Here are some irrefutable facts that you seem to not be able to grasp: Lye is the best way to break down the material to get the alkaloid, the quantity has no negatives -- Lye is safe, is completely insoluble in pure naptha, and has been used for food processing for decades and in the chemical process of treating municipal water supplies, it's in your soap, detergents, and in some of the foods you eat (which you probably don't realize) - It's a pure base, not some chemical pollutant. You seem to ask the most idiotic questions, but I'll humor you - So, what does lye do to MHRB is what is a lye booster?? Well, obviously lye has a double purpose of breaking down the bark material and releasing the alk salts into solution - a lye booster is used in case the ph has dropped, because lye working on bark can loose it's efficacy in solution. The lye soup simply makes it an easier and more efficient process -- don't over complicate it, it's a simple process , there's no "clumping" or dirty yields - Naptha makes all else equal, because it perfectly pulls what's needed if separated correctly.. Equating speed with crudeness of technique is just ignorant - there's nothing lazy about the purification steps & freeze precips in an STB. El ka bong, it's clear that you don't know what you are talking about & based on some of your statements you probably have never done a single extraction - If you have, I'd be very worried about the end result. Now let's move on from this tired topic, I'm done with it.
[quote:62ece708ae]I am also frustrated that what I see as a less-than-safe-and sound tek is promoted as a "Lazy Man's" method for obtaining dmt - freaking sacrament not to fool with ! and any motives based on 'easy' or lazy access, make me wonder who's at the wheel there... ... [/quote:62ece708ae] No need to be frustrated! There is a simple answer. Stop theorising and do some experiments. Since you seem to favour the acid to base method I am sure you are capable of the simpler straight to base method. Do the experiment keeping things as similar as possible in terms of quantities of mimosa hostilis (or whatever) used and all other conditions except those that have to be different (i.e. use of the acid). Post the results. You may even find people are interested in what you have to say at this point. Currently you seem to have a lot of opinion and the urge to share it but very little actual information on the subject. [/quote]