Acorus calamus overdose

[69ron]

...I did not experience any distinct sedation to speak of, other than the fucked-up feeling of purging my guts out again and again...

This is interesting. SWIM has not experienced any sedation at all from cold water extracts either. He’s never used 20 grams though, 5 grams tops for cold water extraction. With the acetone extract, kava-like sedation was very evident. In fact the taste of the extract has a similar kava-like flavor to it.

SWIM still has his acetone extracted calamus powder sitting there. It’s 10 grams (well not anymore, the oil and other junk was extracted by the acetone). SWIM is a little nervous to try a water extract of it. But still he is SO CURIOUS to see if its still active by cold water extraction. It’s possible that the acetone pulled all the nausea causing crap from the root, leaving behind some of the water soluble pscyhoactives. But then again, it’s possible it didn’t and drinking a tea from it might set off another episode of nausea.

Evening Glory, how much water did you use for the 20 grams? Did you let it soak overnight?

 

[Ginkgo]

Evening Glory, thanks for that report. So it’s visual effects are not complete BS.

Apparently, your test showed that if enough cold water extracted calamus is used the nausea still presents a problem. That’s too bad. The nausea and vomiting is seriously some of the worst a person can experience. It makes ayahuasca nausea look like a walk in the park.

Was the root powdered? If so, was it filtered really well removing all of the solids?

Yeah, Ayahuasca purging is really nothing compared to Calamus purging. It was so intense, and I kept on purging at least 30-40 times after my stomach was 100 % empty. I at some point seriously thought I had to go to the hospital, a thought that never have occurred before or after on any other substance. For me, it seemed like the reason for the intense purging was over-stimulation of the stomach, as my stomach felt very acidic, and some ginger tea helped a bit - but not much, and the effect soon disappeared. It is still a possibility that there are several actives in this plant, maybe just one of the toxins is less water soluble, and that is why you did not experience any nausea with one fourth of my amount?

Yeah, the root was powdered, and yes, I filtered it very well to remove any solids. It was filtered twice through two different coffee filters, so I can not believe even any small solids may have came through. I did not measure the water, but I guess it must have been around half a liter. I let it soak for about 4-6 hours I believe, where I two or three times mixed the water and solids again.

I must say Calamus had an unique feel over it, not like anything else. It took a while before the nausea started to get bad, and during that time I quite enjoyed it. It is not easy to explain, but it can best be described as a warm, but unfamiliar feeling in both my body and my mind. As a side-note, a good hit of potent skunk did not potentate the "trip", something I find strange. It always potentate even a small dose of mushrooms or LSD. It did, however, control the nausea to a bearable amount for a while, but that was just for like 30 minutes.

 

[69ron]

What makes me think the nausea is caused by something other than the psychoactive compound is that the nausea starts pretty much AFTER you reach the peak psychoactive effects. If the psychoactive compound caused the nausea, it seems to me that it would cause nausea before reaching the psychoactive peak, not after. With nearly all psychoactive compounds, if any nausea occurs, it happens before the peak, not after it. That just doesn’t sound right to me. Also, in the past with calamus, SWIM experienced ONLY nausea and no other effects. I’ve also heard of some calamus trips that caused visual effects with NO NAUSEA (while the same tripper experienced extreme nausea with other calamus). So they don’t seem to be linked.

I truly think the nausea is not related to the psychoactivity. I wish I knew what caused the nausea. If I knew, maybe I could come up with a way to remove it or reduce it to manageable levels.

Does anyone have any ideas on what causes the nausea and how to reduce it?

 

[polytrip]

The only experience with calamus i have is with a standardized extract, that definately didn't cause nausea. Unfortunately they don't sell it anymore.

But it confirms your idea's ron. The psycho-active part isn't causing nausea (at least not in small but still active amounts).

 

[Spiceman]

Fractional distillation anyone? Someone to bio-assay the results of that operation? Ok, Ok... someone work it up and send me the isolates.. I will give my lab rats small ^ incremental doses until i feel they are human safe....

fuck it.. i'll give anything a try. My guess is you'd need alot of plates because im betting on a treasure trove of compounds are hiding in there if brought out properly. No, seriously... i'll bio-assay anything a reputable member works up. Godspeed.

 

[69ron]

Alright Spiceman. I'll think up something for you to guinea pig for us.

Just be ready for some serious calamus nausea and vomiting if things don’t go right. This is the kind of nausea and vomiting that Nazi war criminals would wish on their enemies.


Fractional distillation is something SWIM can do but would rather not do. It’s like running a column. It’s boring as all hell. You sit there and take notes, and if you miss a point, you need to run it again. It’s time consuming.

There must be a better way to get rid of the nausea containing crap, but maybe there isn’t.


This site talks about use of calamus in India and says that “10 to 15 grams of the powder is emetic”:

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On that page it also says that “Alcohol extraction is sedative and analgesic, slows respiration and may lower blood pressure”. That’s interesting because SWIM’s acetone extraction did just that, but the water extract did not. The water extract was stimulating and didn’t effect breathing at all. So apparently alcohol and acetone are pulling a sedative that doesn’t get pulled so well with water. I wonder what that is? I’m guessing that’s beta-asarone. It’s a known sedative. Anyone know?

 

[69ron]

Ok so SWIM finally got the guts to try this again and THE RESULTS WERE FANTASTIC!

He took the 10 grams of powdered calamus root that was previously extracted with acetone and made a new cold water extraction from the same root material using 200 ml of water. Actually it was a room temperature water extraction not cold. He mixed it for 1 hour and then filtered it through 101 paper and then 103 paper. The liquid was amber. He added sweetener, a little vanilla, and a few drops of peppermint extract to make it taste better. It's wasn't bad actually.

Ok, now he drank it down in about 4 minutes and got a little nervous. He was worried he might get stomach hell again. That never happened though. Here's how it went so far:

T+0:00, the extract was taken orally. There was a mild numbing effect noticed. Hmmm, SWIM didn't except that. He assumed all the active would have been already removed by the acetone. Apparently not!
T+0:15, there's a mild numb feeling in the body. Nothing much else is felt.
T+2:30, the effects are now very obvious. SWIM feels a pleasant stimulant effect and things look very slightly swirly. Hmmmm. That was NOT expected at all!
T+3:00 (as I'm writing this down), SWIM feels FANTASTIC! He feels like he had a small dose of mescaline. It is a SUPERB BEAUTIFUL FEELING! There is NO NAUSEA, just bliss and stimulant effects very similar to mescaline/MDMA, and very minor visual effects! WOW!

Alright, so that was NOT expected at all. What accounts for this? What the heck?

As I'm writing, SWIM is feeling it. It is just blissful. I'm not sure what to say about this. This is completely unexpected. I thought SWIM would either get no effects because the acetone washed everything away, or possibly the same effects just weaker. But NO! The effects are very different. They are MORE psychedelic! What the heck!

I'm at a loss here as to what's going on. Why is it more psychedelic. SWIM says it is SO MUCH LIKE A LOW DOSE OF MESCALINE that it's unbelievable. The euphoria is fantastic. The body feel is there. It's weak, maybe similar to about 40 mg of mescaline, but definitely very active with minor visuals.

I am amazed. I am blown away.

Apparently the GOOD STUFF in calamus is NOT ASARONE or beta-asarone, but something that is WATER SOLUBLE. The acetone dissolved the asarone and beta-asarone for sure. Those are both sedatives. There isn't the slightest hint of sedation felt at all. No nausea. All the unpleasant effects are GONE!


Folks, this is a breakthrough discovery. Calamus is MORE psychedelic after cleaning it with acetone. I don't now why but it is. I believe asarone or something else present actually counteracts the psychedelic effects of the desired water soluble compound in calamus that's the psychedelic.

I can't believe how fantastic SWIM feels. He just had a cup of coffee and it potentiated the effects quite a bit. It is SO BLISSFUL.

I hope this isn't a fluke. I hope this test is repeatable. SWIM will definitely try this one again.


These are the steps that lead to this fantastic experience:

1 - extract 10 grams of powdered calamus root with 100 ml of acetone by mixing for 3 hours. Filter off the acetone and discard it. Keep the powder. I believe this gets rid of the asarone and beta-asarone which are both sedatives that counteract the psychedelic effects of calamus, and also gets rid of the nausea causing crap, whatever that is.
2 - dry the powdered root until all the acetone is gone from the powder.
3 - extract the dry root with 200 ml of room temperature water for 1 hour. Strain and drink.

 

[Touche Guevara]

How exciting! Will be following this thread closely. If 10 grams is active as you say, this is a pretty interesting discovery since this botanical seems to run about $40/kg.

 

[ohayoco]

Good work Ron! Start using Acorus Americanus, if my memory serves that is the stuff people on Edot told me is easier on the stomach, they say it's not carcinogenic either but I guess they can't really tell that from personal experience. I think I remember them having great faith that there was a nice chemical lurking in there waiting to be extracted.
Dreamer ordered some calamus a while ago but it was from Poland so the 'wrong' stuff... might use it to test out '69Ron's calamus tek'! Dreamer tried chewing, tea and smoking, all of which tasted awful enough that, combined with the worries about having a horrible time, his curiosity waned.

There was loads on Erowid about it... I found this one the most informative at the time: Calamus - Erowid Exp - 'Proper Use of Acorus Calamus'

 

[69ron]

It's the following afternoon and SWIM can still feel the effects of it. It affected his dreams as well, making them more plentiful and more vivid. At the moment he feels quite stimulated. The euphoria is gone, but the stimulation is still there.

I think the fact that calamus has been called both a stimulant and a sedative is because it actually contains both. After the acetone wash, all the sedatives were removed from the calamus. The 10 grams of acetone washed, cold water extracted tea, had not a hint of sedatives effects. It felt almost exactly like mescaline. Not just a little bit. SWIM knows the effects of mescaline very well. This felt almost exactly like a low dose of mescaline and was very different from all his previous experiences with calamus.

In comparing a normal cold water extraction to the cold water extraction done after the acetone wash, the following differences are very apparent in the latter:

* All the relaxing effects are completely absent. The same extract done without the acetone wash produces a mild and noticeable anti-anxiety sedative effect along with the stimulant effects calamus is known for. But after the acetone wash, the experience completely lacks any sedative effects.
* It’s way more euphoric. Apparently, the sedatives removed by the acetone wash were blocking most of the euphoric effects possible with calamus. The euphoria increased at least 10-fold after the wash.
* It’s far more stimulating. Again, with the sedatives removed, the stimulant present in calamus is able to work better.
* It’s not as strong tasting. Apparently, most of the strong tasting compounds were removed by the acetone wash.
* It’s more “psychedelic”. SWIM experienced very distinct but mild swirly visual effects from it. The same extract done without the acetone wash had no visual effects. Apparently the sedatives removed by the acetone wash blocked the visual effects calamus is capable of.
* Mental clarity was greatly improved.


It’s likely that d-limonene will work better at removing the asarone, beta-asarone, and the other undesired toxic compounds without removing the psychedelic present. Water is capable of extracting the psychedelic, but acetone also seems to be able to do this, but extracts far more of the junk present. D-limonene is more non-polar than acetone, and should more selectively extract the asarone, beta-asarone, and hopefully the other toxic nauseating crap in the calamus root, while hopefully leaving behind more of the psychedelic stimulant found in the calamus root.

Please don’t take any of this too seriously until the test is repeated and the same results are had. SWIM needs to do this test again to be sure this was not a fluke. It’s possible some unusual chemical change occurred in the herb leading to this experience that is not easily duplicated. Another test needs to be done.

SWIM has no more calamus and must order more before he can repeat the test. But all of this makes sense. Reports of calamus oil being hallucinogenic are not found anywhere. Calamus oil makes you sedated and causes extreme nausea and vomiting, much like the acetone extract did. However, the acetone extract was a little psychoactive, but more sedating and nauseating than anything else. I think the good stuff is a little soluble in the acetone, but the bad stuff is many times more so. It’s hard to tell if the psychedelic stimulant present in calamus is more soluble in water than in acetone because the acetone extracted all the sedatives from the calamus, and they very distinctly interfere with the psychedelic stimulant effects of calamus. My feeling is that the stimulant is soluble in both, and just slightly more in water than in acetone and that using d-limonene as a wash would be better than using acetone.

SWIM has two tests planned. 1 to duplicate the one above by washing with acetone and then extracting with cold water, and then another test which washes with d-limonene and then extracts with cold water. I have the feeling, the d-limonene wash will remove all the undesired compounds and leave behind more of the psychedelic stimulant. I think the psychedelic stimulant present in calamus is very polar, unlike asarone, beta-asrone and the nauseating crap in the roots, and washing with d-limonene will be the best. We will see.

 

[polytrip]

It sounds like it's a phenethylamine, that's responsible for the effects, if it resembles a low dose of mescaline or MDMA.

 

[69ron]

Polytrip, SWIM says it feels almost exactly like a low dose of mescaline, so much so that SWIM would think he had a small dose mescaline if he didn’t know better (except the visuals were LSD-like and not like mescaline). Before the acetone wash, no, it was quite different. The sedating and uninteresting asarones likely messed up the effects. I think this is why the effects of calamus are controversial. I think the sedating asarones counteract the effects of hallucinogens.

Some people swear they had wild North American strains that were actually hallucinogenic, producing swirly visuals like what SWIM experienced last night with his acetone washed water extract. Such wild North American strains were always said to be stimulating and not sedating. That means they had little or no asarone and beta-asarone. SWIM’s is not a wild strain and is definitely sedating if not washed with acetone first. The asarones are clearly sedating. This is a known fact. After researching enough, I found that the asarones are not hallucinogens, they are just sedatives, even at dangerously high doses (the same is true for calamus oil). So removing these is likely a very important step in enabling the psychedelic effects of calamus.

So it’s not asarone or beta-asarone that’s the active hallucinogen in calamus, and it's likely to be a phenethylamine, I agree. But which one? I never saw mention of any phenethylamine being present in calamus root. But then, most reports only analyze the essential oil, and this compound is apparently not an oil, otherwise the acetone would have washed it away along with the asarone, beta-asarone, and the other toxic nauseating essential oils present in the root.

Has anyone ever seen mention of a phenethylamine in calamus? Or even the mention of an alkaloid in it?

SWIM is really excited about this. The effect was as good as a low dose of mescaline. It felt natural, smooth, very euphoric. SWIM wants to do more work on calamus. The tech used was very simple. Just wash with acetone to remove the carcinogenic asarones and other toxic stuff, and then extract with cold water.

SWIM wants to know what this compound is that is responsible for these great phenethylamine like effects. From this test the following was found about it:

* It’s polar, otherwise the acetone would have removed most of it, like it did with the asarones and other non-polar volatile oils present in the root.
* It’s either insoluble in acetone, or not completely soluble in it, so that washing with acetone leaves enough behind for it to be active.
* It’s effects are diminished by the presence of something the acetone washed away (likely beta-asarone), so an acetone wash is needed to experience it fully.
* Effects take about 15 minutes to be felt. Peak after about 3 hours, and last roughly 12 hours.
* It’s a stimulant with effects that very closely resemble the effects of a low dose of mescaline.
* It produces mild LSD-style swirly visual effects (unlike mescaline) at the dose SWIM used. That is, only after the acetone wash. Prior to an acetone wash, no swirly visuals were ever experienced from the same batch of root material. This I believe is from the presence of the sedative beta-asarone in large amounts, which very likely blocked its psychedelic action. (Many sedatives are capable of blocking or weakening the effects of psychedelics.)

It’s possibly not an alkaloid. I read someone performed an A/B on calamus and the results were completely inactive. But maybe they messed up somewhere in their A/B?

Does anyone have any idea what compound this psychedelic is likely to be?

 

[Ginkgo]

Oh, what a joy! Great work 69ron, I am so glad you are doing this. I totally agree with you that the visual effects are comparable to LSD, that is just why I wrote that I got effects from 20 gram cold-water extract similar to the visual effects right after landing. The time frame you describe, which I can support by my own experience, is exactly like LSD. Is it possible that you are on the brink of discovering a new ergoline-like substance? Perhaps with a potency comparable to LSD, as it has not been extracted and identified yet?

This is all speculation, of course, but I nonetheless feel this is a very interesting subject. I feel there is no doubt that this is acting on the serotonin system, seeing how the euphoria you felt were extremely similar to mescaline, and that the visual effects were described by both of us as LSD-like. Perhaps a bit of dopamine activity in there too? That would fit well with the ergoline-like hypothesis. I am only aware of alkaloids acting on the serotonin system, so if this is not an alkaloid, then you are really touching new grounds here. Can it really be anything else than serotonergic action? Can anything produce an euphoria so close to mescaline, and visual effects so close to LSD, without acting on the serotonin system?

Thank you again, and please keep us updated! If you discover any way to remove the taste completely, please let me know, as I still get nauseas by only smelling a small amount of Acorus.

 

[Kannamate]

very interesting look forward to hearing more about more experiences. Could it be safrole that plays a part in calamus I know some safrole is inti,but very litte compared to other safrole containing plants. Maybe there's some other alkaloid in calamus that potentiates it?

 

[polytrip]

Some people think that asarone is metabolized by the human body into some phenethylamine, i believe it was TMA or something simmilar.

Could asarone be metabolized in the plant as well?

The stuff asarone is supposed to metabolize in, would be the first candidate for being the mysterious ingredient.

If the mental effects are that of mescaline or MDMA, then it is indeed likely to work on serotonin receptors.
But, as bufoman has told me, there are other receptors that resemble serotonin receptors, that are linked to the visual system of wich TAAR is one. And because the structural simmilarity, most 5-HT2 agonists will also act upon those receptors.

Mescaline and LSD both have in common that they also act on dopamine receptors, unlike most other psychedelic compounds.
This is probably why they are both very stimulating and energetic compared to DMT or psilocin.

 

[Ginkgo]

Some people think that asarone is metabolized by the human body into some phenethylamine, i believe it was TMA or something simmilar.

I believe the substance in question is TMA-2 (2,4,5-trimethoxyamphetamine), although there are absolutely nothing that supports this hypothesis. As far as I am concerned, it comes from Adam Gottlieb's Legal Highs, who did not even provide a reference for it. TMA-2 is reportedly similar to mescaline, supported by the very similar molecular structure. It may very well be what has been, and still are to a certain degree, sold as "synthetic mescaline". This suits well with 69ron's description of the effects to be mescaline like. However, 69ron thought his extract would not contain any asarone. And again, there is nothing that supports the asarone -> TMA-2 hypothesis.

I have now read a bit about the constituents in calamus, and must say this is a very interesting herb. Take a look at the attached paper, where you will see several substances closely related to asarone. You can't deny that asarone has an interesting structure, even though it is not psychedelic - its relatives might be. What amazes me, though, is that none of the substances isolated have any nitrogen. Are we really talking about a non-alkaloid psychedelic? That will in that case be the second ever discovered!

Several of the identified compounds have similarities to both mescaline and the TMAs. One or more of them may be active, or it may be metabolized into something active. I don't believe much in this last hypothesis, taken into account that effects are felt within 15 minutes. This is really a mystery... I hope someone can shed some light on this in the near future.

 

[Ginkgo]

Another paper, for the interested... (Why can't I edit my post with new attachments?)

 

[polytrip]

Can there be a TMA-like comnpound left in the plant material, after all the asarone is wahsed out of it?

 

[Ginkgo]

Can there be a TMA-like comnpound left in the plant material, after all the asarone is wahsed out of it?

That certainly is the best bet, I believe. But the weird thing is that none of the isolated compounds are alkaloids, even though many of them have structural similarities with the TMAs.

 

[69ron]

None of the tests performed were done using cold water extracts. Cold water extracts are the most psychoactive and least toxic it seems. Why didn't they use water?

Because they didn’t use water, they excluded some highly polar compounds from their tests. Also, they don’t mention it, but its very likely that heat was involved in the extractions used for the tests. Often Soxhlet extraction is performed.

From what I’ve read, heat ruins the psychoactive effects of calamus.

It’s possible that those tests may have either destroyed the active psychoactive by using heat to speed up the extraction and evaporation of the solvents used (Soxhlet extraction is very common and uses heat); or they never extracted it initially because they didn’t use water.