ACRB for beginners - Thicklight or Cyb or what?

[aegishjalmir]

Let's imagine that a new member of this forum, with no background in chemistry, has managed to put her hands on 500 grams of ACRB, and wants to do an extraction. Is there any reason that she shouldn't simply follow Thick-Light's instructions in the first post in this thread here?

If you're having trouble getting crystals from acrb, use this tek (thick-light) - A/B - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

Put another way: what is the worst thing that can happen to her if she follows this tek to the letter? Is it complete and total disaster and a waste of the $80 she spent on the ACRB? Is it a really bad yield? Is it simply ending up with a lot of changa or some other impure form, which she could then consume as is or recrystalize at her leisure?

I ask this question in this form because the original Thick-Light thread now runs to 14 pages and has gotten highly confusing for those of us with zero extraction experience, and we need to start somewhere. If there is a compelling reason to start with Cyb's tek or some other tek we should know what that is, but it's a risky proposition for a complete beginner, because TL's tek is absolutely clear as to quantities and materials and Cyb's, being based on principles, is not. For instance it seems to me that I could really mess things up by adding too much salt or not enough. So - experienced members - this is a plea for really clear guidance for the inexperienced members here.

AH

<MODERATOR: REMOVED BAD WORDS, IT IS NOT NEEDED ON THE DMT-NEXUS>
Respectful communication

 

[*oneironaut*]

Hi aegishjalmir!

Either tek will will give you great results if your bark is of good quality. Both tens are basically the same! /B extractions) so either one will do it. Just follow to the instructions of either one. You can add salt (rock salt/ice cream salt) to thick lights when you do the basification stage (when you add the lye) it is hard to overdo the salt, so for 500g of ac just add 200-250g of salt. Salt helps push the dmt out into the solvent when you do your pulls.

Ask away, take your time and the worst that could happen you already answered for yourself

*O*

 

[Vodsel]

It's always a good idea to start with small amounts, say 50g, unless you are very confident with what you are doing. You can try either path with that (maybe even both with 50g each) and then do the rest with whichever gave the best results for you.

 

[aegishjalmir]

Thanks guys!

Oneironaut (great name) - if I understand you correctly, one would just mix in some salt at the base stage? No other steps required?

Vodsel - the attraction of the TL tek for a total beginner is that all of the amounts are clearly specified. I wouldn't know how to acidify correctly without PH strips, for instance, or how much naptha to use, etc. etc. It is way simpler to have a recipe to follow, and TL's tek is a very clear recipe.

 

[Vodsel]

Most extraction teks specify amounts of acid/base/solvent for a given amount of plant matter. If you are using a different starting amount, simply adjust proportionally (i.e. if you want to follow TL's recipe with 50g instead of 500g, divide amounts by ten).

In any case, and when in doubt, it's better to aim for a little excess than falling short. In the acid step you want to make sure that all the alkaloids get in the water solution in salt form (acetate when using vinegar) and a little excess of vinegar will not damage them, and will simply ask for a little more base if the figures in the tek are very adjusted; In the base step you want to make sure that all the salts are converted to freebase, and a little excess of lye will not hurt; and in the pulling step, using excess solvent simply implies you're spending more solvent, and might require to evaporate partially before freeze precipitation to get your solvent saturated enough, or will take longer to evaporate if you are not using freeze precipitation... but in either case, a little excess will not hurt the final yield.

 

[*oneironaut*]

Thanks guys!

Oneironaut (great name) - if I understand you correctly, one would just mix in some salt at the base stage? No other steps required?

Thanks correct, just add salt at the stage when you add the lye (again, rock salt/ice cream salt is best)

 

[mailorderdiety]

Most extraction teks specify amounts of acid/base/solvent for a given amount of plant matter. If you are using a different starting amount, simply adjust proportionally (i.e. if you want to follow TL's recipe with 50g instead of 500g, divide amounts by ten).

In any case, and when in doubt, it's better to aim for a little excess than falling short. In the acid step you want to make sure that all the alkaloids get in the water solution in salt form (acetate when using vinegar) and a little excess of vinegar will not damage them, and will simply ask for a little more base if the figures in the tek are very adjusted; In the base step you want to make sure that all the salts are converted to freebase, and a little excess of lye will not hurt; and in the pulling step, using excess solvent simply implies you're spending more solvent, and might require to evaporate partially before freeze precipitation to get your solvent saturated enough, or will take longer to evaporate if you are not using freeze precipitation... but in either case, a little excess will not hurt the final yield.

i appreciate the explanation of the wiggle room within each process. i have been doing this by trial and error and hoped this was going on with great results, but to have it explained really helps.

 

[NamahsNaicigam]

Thick lights tek is pretty spot on. There were a couple steps that weren't on his first post that should be noted.

1. Freeze then thaw bark twice. (Helps break down the plant material)

2. Straining with cheese cloths from cooking pot to reducing pot and again from reducing pot to jars.

3. Reduce down to 2 jars at 1000ml each

2 &3 help with reducing emulsions. I am working on my second batch of 500g ACRB and am having good results. My first experience was terrible but I learned a lot. Don't be discouraged if it doesn't go as planned on your first go. Extraction becomes a zen art.

I wouldn't know how to acidify correctly without PH strips, for instance, or how much naptha to use, etc. etc. It is way simpler to have a recipe to follow, and TL's tek is a very clear recipe.

I would very strongly suggest you invest in a digital PH tester. Most of the strips don't have a suitable range, and even if you can find those that do, the acacia is such a strong dye that it is nearly impossible to tell what your strip reads especially after basing.

Another tip is to use Ph DOWN instead of white vinegar. Its just a preference. I personally don't like my house to smell strong of vinegar for hours and hours :?

Naphtha is a good solvent but don't over do it. Thicklight calls for 600ml which I found to be extraordinarily excessive. I have found that no more then 300ml per jar works perfect. When I used 600 I ended up having to evaporate most of it before anything fell out. His bark may be super saturated with DMT.

 

[aegishjalmir]

Thanks to everyone for making this simple for the beginners here!

3. Reduce down to 2 jars at 1000ml each

So *all* the pulls get reduced out to 2 x 1000ml? Then the naptha is added to those (separately)?

I would very strongly suggest you invest in a digital PH tester. Most of the strips don't have a suitable range, and even if you can find those that do, the acacia is such a strong dye that it is nearly impossible to tell what your strip reads especially after basing.

One of the attractions for me anyway of the Thick-Light Tek is that I don't need to test PH. Do you think that's naive?

 

[Vodsel]

Another tip is to use Ph up instead of white vinegar.

pH up is generally potassium hydroxide... to replace the vinegar you could try pH down, as long as it's a suitable acid like phosphoric or citric. Unless you want to skip the acidifying step and go for a straight-to-base tek.

 

[*oneironaut*]

Another tip is to use Ph up instead of white vinegar.

pH up is generally potassium hydroxide... to replace the vinegar you could try pH down, as long as it's a suitable acid like phosphoric or citric. Unless you want to skip the acidifying step and go for a straight-to-base tek.

Hey Vodsel, In another thread he (TL) mentions crystal asorbic acid as a substitute for vinegar, do you have any experience or knowledge of its efficacy? From what I can tell it's just vitamin c concentrate right? I'm very interested in this as an alternative and haven't given it a shot but would like to... thoughts?

Aegis, I just ordered a digital meter off of amazon for 15 bucks... it's a cheap china import but does the job. A ph meter isn't necessary, but in the end, it just gives you another tool to extract with confidence.

 

[NamahsNaicigam]

Another tip is to use Ph up instead of white vinegar.

pH up is generally potassium hydroxide... to replace the vinegar you could try pH down, as long as it's a suitable acid like phosphoric or citric. Unless you want to skip the acidifying step and go for a straight-to-base tek.

Thank you for correcting me!

 

[Psilosomniac]

Thick lights tek is pretty spot on. There were a couple steps that weren't on his first post that should be noted.

1. Freeze then thaw bark twice. (Helps break down the plant material)

I had a question about this.

I'm in the process of extracting from ACRB using Cyb's tek. I've got 250g of bark, and I've run a few pulls from my first run with 50g. I've got very little crystal formation, and a decent amount of goo, and there are several parts of the process that I plan on improving on for the next 50g batch. The first is a freeze/thaw as you mentioned.

To clarify, should I be soaking the bark and putting it, with the water, in the freezer? Should I soak the bark in a container and put the whole thing in the freezer, or pull the bark out and let it drip a little and put it in a dry, empty container?

 

[RRunner]

I'm currently in the process of running my first extraction. I only had 50g so I used Cyb's tek, and I've gotten good results on one pull, and I'm waiting on the 3rd (as well as feedback from other Nexians re the freeze stage)

After reading Cyb's tek, I felt confident in the execution so I proceeded. Then after getting everything started, it really just became something of a waiting game, shake, settle, repeat, etc. I realized that the dangers of chemicals and other hazards occur at specific points along the extraction, but you're warned of these by the tek. If you keep safety and caution first, but don't forget that bump of confidence, I'd say the worst outcome would be a big base barky mess if you drop your vessel! I like HDPE plastic if I can find a convenient container. Like this one! - Home Depot Spray Bottle

 

[RRunner]

Thick lights tek is pretty spot on. There were a couple steps that weren't on his first post that should be noted.

1. Freeze then thaw bark twice. (Helps break down the plant material)

I had a question about this.

I'm in the process of extracting from ACRB using Cyb's tek. I've got 250g of bark, and I've run a few pulls from my first run with 50g. I've got very little crystal formation, and a decent amount of goo, and there are several parts of the process that I plan on improving on for the next 50g batch. The first is a freeze/thaw as you mentioned.

To clarify, should I be soaking the bark and putting it, with the water, in the freezer? Should I soak the bark in a container and put the whole thing in the freezer, or pull the bark out and let it drip a little and put it in a dry, empty container?

I wonder this as well.. My ACRB 500g shipped bone dry (including a nice desiccant pack to absorb the moisture ) I've got it in a large pot waiting to be chopped up with garden scissors before I procede to either ThickLight's tek, or perhaps DoingKermit's. Any one else been successful with DK's method?

 

[NamahsNaicigam]

Thick lights tek is pretty spot on. There were a couple steps that weren't on his first post that should be noted.

1. Freeze then thaw bark twice. (Helps break down the plant material)

I had a question about this.

I'm in the process of extracting from ACRB using Cyb's tek. I've got 250g of bark, and I've run a few pulls from my first run with 50g. I've got very little crystal formation, and a decent amount of goo, and there are several parts of the process that I plan on improving on for the next 50g batch. The first is a freeze/thaw as you mentioned.

To clarify, should I be soaking the bark and putting it, with the water, in the freezer? Should I soak the bark in a container and put the whole thing in the freezer, or pull the bark out and let it drip a little and put it in a dry, empty container?

I wonder this as well.. My ACRB 500g shipped bone dry (including a nice desiccant pack to absorb the moisture ) I've got it in a large pot waiting to be chopped up with garden scissors before I procede to either ThickLight's tek, or perhaps DoingKermit's. Any one else been successful with DK's method?

Well this is what I do. Take it how you will and keep in mind I am still learning.

-- Process:
Break up bark by hand.
Cut it finer with pruning shears.
Put it in a blender with water to break it up a little more and get it wet. (Don't grind it to a pulp just enough for it to be stringy)
Drain off the excess water (In a pot or jar - save the water)
Put the remaining wet bark in a zip lock bag (Not a glass jar or IT WILL break)
Freeze
Thaw
Freeze
Thaw

So *all* the pulls get reduced out to 2 x 1000ml? Then the naptha is added to those (separately)?

Yes. All pulls reduced down to 2000ml (1000ml in each jar) and 300ml naphtha added to each jar (Half gallon wide mouth mason jars work perfect). Then decant naphtha from both jars into one collection dish and freeze.

I agree with *oneironaut* about the Ph tester.

 

[wall-iko]

Let's imagine that a new member of this forum, with no background in chemistry, has managed to put her hands on 500 grams of ACRB, and wants to do an extraction. Is there any reason that she shouldn't simply follow Thick-Light's instructions in the first post in this thread here?

If you're having trouble getting crystals from acrb, use this tek (thick-light) - A/B - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

Put another way: what is the worst thing that can happen to her if she follows this tek to the letter? Is it complete and total disaster and a waste of the $80 she spent on the ACRB? Is it a really shitty yield? Is it simply ending up with a lot of changa or some other impure form, which she could then consume as is or recrystalize at her leisure?

I ask this question in this form because the original Thick-Light thread now runs to 14 pages and has gotten highly confusing for those of us with zero extraction experience, and we need to start somewhere. If there is a compelling reason to start with Cyb's tek or some other tek we should know what that is, but it's a risky proposition for a complete beginner, because TL's tek is absolutely clear as to quantities and materials and Cyb's, being based on principles, is not. For instance it seems to me that I could really fuck things up by adding too much salt or not enough. So - experienced members - this is a plea for really clear guidance for the inexperienced members here.

AH

hey! I did my first time wit Cyb 2 days ago and I had full support from him. By the way I had no scales and no right salt but it came out quite good
here take a look Extracting right now need help (Cybs' ATB) - FAQ - All your basic questions and answers - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

 

[Psilosomniac]

Well this is what I do. Take it how you will and keep in mind I am still learning.

-- Process:
Break up bark by hand.
Cut it finer with pruning shears.
Put it in a blender with water to break it up a little more and get it wet. (Don't grind it to a pulp just enough for it to be stringy)
Drain off the excess water (In a pot or jar - save the water)
Put the remaining wet bark in a zip lock bag (Not a glass jar or IT WILL break)
Freeze
Thaw
Freeze
Thaw

Thanks for the reply!

I went ahead and did it this way. Added 80ml of vinegar to 180ml of water, added powdered bark (my bag of bark had quite a bit of powder on the bottom, so I just used that and ground it up a little more), and put it in the freezer in a glass jar. I made sure to leave the top of the jar on loosely and offset so it wasn't sealed. The jar wasn't completely full either. I froze it completely last night, then pulled it out before I went to sleep. When I woke up, it had thawed out so I put it back in and went back to sleep. Now I'm waiting for it to freeze again and I'll thaw it out one more time before I begin the heat bath.

Is there any particular reason you recommended not powdering it all the way? I'm using Cyb's tek, and since the entire mixture is added to the extraction vessel, it seemed to me that it should be powdered as much as possible. Is it a heat issue, perhaps? Because it was already mostly powder, and I just ground it up a bit more for good measure to get a couple of pieces that were left in the powder broken down well.

Another quick question: Once it's thawed out, I'll need to heat it, but I don't have a stove available. My last attempt, I just made a heat bath by almost boiling water in the microwave and placing the EV into a container of hot water. I shook it up every so often, and reheated the water in the microwave when it started to get close to lukewarm. I made sure it was always warm, though. Should I be keeping it hot, and how often should I be shaking the EV during this acid extraction phase?

And another question I thought of as well. Is a defat recommended for ACRB? It seems like a pretty simple step to add. Will that possibly help reduce the amount of goo that forms at the end? Can a defat remove any alkaloids as well? I would think not, considering the idea is to defat while the alkaloids are in their acid form, so they won't be pulled by the naphtha.

 

[Vodsel]

Hey Vodsel, In another thread he (TL) mentions crystal asorbic acid as a substitute for vinegar, do you have any experience or knowledge of its efficacy? From what I can tell it's just vitamin c concentrate right? I'm very interested in this as an alternative and haven't given it a shot but would like to... thoughts?

I haven't tried it myself, but t's a soluble acid, it has a pKa of 4,10 compared to the 4,76 of vinegar/acetic acid, so it's actually a stronger acid... should work good to lower pH.

 

[Psilosomniac]

Oh man, I also just realized the water I've been using is "vapor distilled water and electrolytes for taste" (Smart water). Could these added electrolytes affect my extraction because de-ionized water is supposed to be used, and water with electrolytes is essentially the complete opposite?

"An 8 oz. serving of Smartwater contains 0 calories, 0 carbohydrates, 2.5 mg of potassium, 2.5 mg of calcium and 3.75 mg of magnesium."

I understand that adding an acid to the solution protonates the DMT. Since potassium, calcium, and magnesium all have positive charges, is it possible that they might actually help protonation? If this were the case, would I need to add more sodium hydroxide in the basification step? Or is this just wishful thinking?

I've already got 180ml of this water with electrolytes mixed with 80ml of vinegar thawing for the second time. It would be very frustrating to go through the entire extraction process with another low yield because of these electrolytes. I'm hoping to hear that it shouldn't be an issue.