I woke up thinking about this so I wrote a text.. but you can say whatever you feel like about the subject 
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advertisement is the root of all evil
- Thread starter endlessness
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Yes advertising is excessive these days and it uses some quite sophisticated psychological methods to get people to buy their junk. I have also watched that documentary it was quite interesting. However it forgets that this is not what capitalism was supposed to be about. People really do not understand that the U.S. now and the major european powers are not free market economies. They are all under the control of central private banks and hence the source of all our major economic and some might say social and environmental problems.
However I want to stress that this economic crisis has very little to do with what a capitalist free market society is all about. It is a result of government interference in markets and government encouragement of ill minded practices as well as government promotion of some rather questionable corporate entities.
Check out: Campaign for Liberty - Reclaim the Republic. Restore the Constitution. Organization started by Ron Paul in response to the destruction of freedom in America. It is primarily american based news but the information is useful for anyone seeking to understand the roots of our problems.
What scares me the most about this crisis is not only is the large scale bailouts of banks going to sew the seeds for another crash but that the government now thinks it has an excuse to control even more of our lives by imposing more regulations on the market and the supply of money. That is much scarier then a few banks going bankrupt. Socialism = communism in disguise. Communism = stupidest economic logic ever!
However I want to stress that this economic crisis has very little to do with what a capitalist free market society is all about. It is a result of government interference in markets and government encouragement of ill minded practices as well as government promotion of some rather questionable corporate entities.
Check out: Campaign for Liberty - Reclaim the Republic. Restore the Constitution. Organization started by Ron Paul in response to the destruction of freedom in America. It is primarily american based news but the information is useful for anyone seeking to understand the roots of our problems.
What scares me the most about this crisis is not only is the large scale bailouts of banks going to sew the seeds for another crash but that the government now thinks it has an excuse to control even more of our lives by imposing more regulations on the market and the supply of money. That is much scarier then a few banks going bankrupt. Socialism = communism in disguise. Communism = stupidest economic logic ever!
The Century of The Self (Google Video it) is a short series of documentaries just mentioned in another thread that deals with the development of advertising... and also how its methods and people were adopted by the US government to overthrow legitimate democratic governments to install murderous dictator allies such as in Guatemala. It also introduces consumer culture as a means of control.
Strategies like planned obsolescence are openly taught in design schools (designing such that the consumer will throw it away to buy a new one in a year or so). I don't know what dirty tricks marketing students are taught but you can bet they're learning the whole spectrum of profit-maximising skullduggery.
Personally I don't believe we should ban adverts because that would be taking the authoritarian route. I'd compare that to how the government banned DMT etc because they think it's bad for you. Regulation is important though to stop outright lies and manipulation, but this must be balanced against a company's libertarian right to advertise its wares. I think children in schools should be educated about the problem by watching such documentaries so that they can develop a healthy sense of scepticism (unfortunately unlikely without political change since the government pays teacher's wages). You can't really make adults watch this stuff, so that aspect of cultural awareness should be handled by people like you, me, and activist groups.
It always makes me smile when I see a billboard defaced by a witty activist. Check out http://www.adbusters.org/gallery/spoofads for some spoof ads.
Strategies like planned obsolescence are openly taught in design schools (designing such that the consumer will throw it away to buy a new one in a year or so). I don't know what dirty tricks marketing students are taught but you can bet they're learning the whole spectrum of profit-maximising skullduggery.
Personally I don't believe we should ban adverts because that would be taking the authoritarian route. I'd compare that to how the government banned DMT etc because they think it's bad for you. Regulation is important though to stop outright lies and manipulation, but this must be balanced against a company's libertarian right to advertise its wares. I think children in schools should be educated about the problem by watching such documentaries so that they can develop a healthy sense of scepticism (unfortunately unlikely without political change since the government pays teacher's wages). You can't really make adults watch this stuff, so that aspect of cultural awareness should be handled by people like you, me, and activist groups.
It always makes me smile when I see a billboard defaced by a witty activist. Check out http://www.adbusters.org/gallery/spoofads for some spoof ads.
I can't agree with you more about the fucking commercials!! I have to turn the channel/station whenever the commercials start. Especially on the radio!! All they do is yell at you, its damn irritating!!
Unfortunately, this will never work because the only reason those TV & radio shows are even available to see/hear is so they have something to keep your attention between commercials!! I know that sounds paranoid but some shows have more commercials per hour than content now days!!
Not only that, but the budget for making the show comes from the sale of advertising time. No advertising, equals no money to make the show.
Edit:
This goes for magazines too. There is a particular industry trade mag (I work in the recording industry, creating the audio for TV, movies, DVD, music CD's etc...) that has drastically changed over the last 4 years, from a reliable source of info on recording gear & techniques for using it, into nothing but advertisements!! There isn't a single page that doesn't have an add somewhere on it and 99% of the "content" now is just editorial advertisements for one company or another!!
There used to be equipment reviews, where if the piece of gear was lame, they would report that and give it a negative review. Now, theres no such thing as a negative review!! In fact, most times the "re-view" is just a "re-wording" of the full page add, which is usually located on the opposing page from the review.
I recently canceled my subscription to this magazine, which I've had for the past 15 years.
Now obviously not every TV show or Mag is this bad.
However, it makes me sad that these mediums were started as forms of entertaining others and expression and sharing of information. Advertising became a way to pay & get paid for your expression or sharing, a necessary evil.
But once again our modern world has completely perverted & reversed this, in order to squeeze more $$ out of the general unassuming public.
Networks now search for anything that might hold people's attention for 30-to-60 minutes, or at least long enough so that they can shovel 3-to-7 minutes worth of adds into your brain, every 7-to-10 minutes!! Just so long as you don't get bored enough to notice that theres just as much (or more), advertising as there is content!!
So now its the entertainment thats necessary to keep people watching the commercials.
Its a sad state!!
WS
Unfortunately, this will never work because the only reason those TV & radio shows are even available to see/hear is so they have something to keep your attention between commercials!! I know that sounds paranoid but some shows have more commercials per hour than content now days!!
Not only that, but the budget for making the show comes from the sale of advertising time. No advertising, equals no money to make the show.
Edit:
This goes for magazines too. There is a particular industry trade mag (I work in the recording industry, creating the audio for TV, movies, DVD, music CD's etc...) that has drastically changed over the last 4 years, from a reliable source of info on recording gear & techniques for using it, into nothing but advertisements!! There isn't a single page that doesn't have an add somewhere on it and 99% of the "content" now is just editorial advertisements for one company or another!!
There used to be equipment reviews, where if the piece of gear was lame, they would report that and give it a negative review. Now, theres no such thing as a negative review!! In fact, most times the "re-view" is just a "re-wording" of the full page add, which is usually located on the opposing page from the review.
I recently canceled my subscription to this magazine, which I've had for the past 15 years.
Now obviously not every TV show or Mag is this bad.
However, it makes me sad that these mediums were started as forms of entertaining others and expression and sharing of information. Advertising became a way to pay & get paid for your expression or sharing, a necessary evil.
But once again our modern world has completely perverted & reversed this, in order to squeeze more $$ out of the general unassuming public.
Networks now search for anything that might hold people's attention for 30-to-60 minutes, or at least long enough so that they can shovel 3-to-7 minutes worth of adds into your brain, every 7-to-10 minutes!! Just so long as you don't get bored enough to notice that theres just as much (or more), advertising as there is content!!
So now its the entertainment thats necessary to keep people watching the commercials.
Its a sad state!!
WS
^^ I notice that everytime I do watch TV with isn't often. But its freaky.
Socialism is not communism in disguise! Socialism was around long before communism. And there are lots of different types (usually perverted by power hungry governments). I wouldn't worry about socialism, it doesn't even exist in the US and UK anymore... the UK labour government is centre, not left of centre. And the US Democrats would be considered right of centre in the UK!
If the governments hadn't bailed out the banks, Western society could've crumbled just like it did in the Great Depression. It's better that we prop it up for now, maybe we can make it more sustainable before capitalism goes into meltdown. And if governments hadn't counterbalanced capitalism all these years, we would've gone into meltdown long ago.
There is a correlation between the gap between the rich and poor in a country, and how happy the people in that country state they are. The US, with its chasm between the classes, doesn't even make the top ten. The UK isn't far in front. Norway, a left of centre moderate socialist country with a relatively small gap between rich and poor, comes top of the happiness league.
If the governments hadn't bailed out the banks, Western society could've crumbled just like it did in the Great Depression. It's better that we prop it up for now, maybe we can make it more sustainable before capitalism goes into meltdown. And if governments hadn't counterbalanced capitalism all these years, we would've gone into meltdown long ago.
There is a correlation between the gap between the rich and poor in a country, and how happy the people in that country state they are. The US, with its chasm between the classes, doesn't even make the top ten. The UK isn't far in front. Norway, a left of centre moderate socialist country with a relatively small gap between rich and poor, comes top of the happiness league.
Did you notice how the volume increases when the adverts come on? For real. The networks literally shout it at you to ensure your attention.
If you don't like adverts, don't have a telly. You can watch everything online.
E.g. at http://www12.alluc.org/alluc/. Or on the network sites. Or buy/rent DVDs if you're picky about quality/paying the programme makes.
If you don't like adverts, don't have a telly. You can watch everything online.
E.g. at http://www12.alluc.org/alluc/. Or on the network sites. Or buy/rent DVDs if you're picky about quality/paying the programme makes.
I highly recommend checking out any of this links and studying the history of central banking, also check out the website I posted up in my earlier post:
Thats a long video but very informative and not all awash in conspiracy theory. Its actually very educational I highly recommend it.
What really happened is quite the opposite of what you are saying. Central banking caused the great depression and made it way worse by continueing to increase inflation through the creation of more and more money.
You are right though socialism is weaker then communism I was just getting fired up (read too much recent news).
If we abolish this system of central banking we the people can then have more control instead of private banks and governments. Do you trust the government to solve all your problems? I certainly don't.
In all things freedom is better then control.
The thing with Marx is, that one part of his theory consists of an unscientific propagation of revolution, wich draws the attention away from the first part of his theory wich is a scientificly justifiable analyssis of the functioning and sustainabillity of capitallism.
Many opponents claim that both the jovjet empire and it's fall as well as the prolonged succes of western capitallism, proof the falsehood of his theory. The sovjet story only proofs the falsehood of the revolution-part, but the succes of cappitallism is something that could have only occured because of the fact that pure, unregulated cappitallism is practicly nowhere to be found. Everytime regulation fails, the first part of his theory is actually proven right.
As for advertising. Advertisements contain images of an unreal dreamed up world. I do not believe that it should be part of any education-system to learn people about this, since it is so obvious. If the real lives of people are of sufficient quality, nobody will feel the urge to escape anymore. People who have a higher apreciation for their friends and loved ones, than for the latest must-have gadgets, are obviously happyer then those for who it's the other way round.
This is not something that can be tought by formal arguments, i would say.
The only thing we can do is just to give love, as much as we can in our own lives, and hope the energy of it will flow through this world to spark this fire in others as well.
Many opponents claim that both the jovjet empire and it's fall as well as the prolonged succes of western capitallism, proof the falsehood of his theory. The sovjet story only proofs the falsehood of the revolution-part, but the succes of cappitallism is something that could have only occured because of the fact that pure, unregulated cappitallism is practicly nowhere to be found. Everytime regulation fails, the first part of his theory is actually proven right.
As for advertising. Advertisements contain images of an unreal dreamed up world. I do not believe that it should be part of any education-system to learn people about this, since it is so obvious. If the real lives of people are of sufficient quality, nobody will feel the urge to escape anymore. People who have a higher apreciation for their friends and loved ones, than for the latest must-have gadgets, are obviously happyer then those for who it's the other way round.
This is not something that can be tought by formal arguments, i would say.
The only thing we can do is just to give love, as much as we can in our own lives, and hope the energy of it will flow through this world to spark this fire in others as well.
burnt.. whether there is some possible form of sustainable capitalism or not, I dont know, maybe.. what I do know is that the way it is being run today is obviously not working, so I guess this common point we all have
btw.. ohayoco and polytrip. When you guys mention about either having an education to teach people about advertisement so that they can ´be above it´, or that ´satisfied people are less affected´, I think you both are having an idealistic idea of what a human being is. You are considering that the conscious mind can overrun the unconscious desires, and as far as Im concerned, psychology has already shown this is not so. The instincts and inherent human flaws through which advertisement inserts itself and is introjected cannot be fully controlled by volition and conscious intellect.
Thats the whole point of when I said that basically NOBODY will admit they are influenced by advertisement, and yet, the budget of this industry proves it influences people A LOT..
sure, maybe education and instruction might help a little in not being affected so directly, but the little ´eating worm´ of consumerism still finds a backdoor through the unconscious.. Even if one doesnt notice, no matter how instructed, advertisement influences us all, maybe not directly but it does, at least to make us used to the idea that consumerism is ´normal´, that such ideals are ok, getting accustomed to certain visuals, etc..
The way I see it, advertisement is a pernicious disease, and banning it is not being a dictator or authoritarian, it is simply realizing it´s direct negative effects to health, while NO advantages arise, and just like diseases are eradicated and this is not authoritarianism, its SANITY, so should advertisement be erradicated.
imo of course
btw.. ohayoco and polytrip. When you guys mention about either having an education to teach people about advertisement so that they can ´be above it´, or that ´satisfied people are less affected´, I think you both are having an idealistic idea of what a human being is. You are considering that the conscious mind can overrun the unconscious desires, and as far as Im concerned, psychology has already shown this is not so. The instincts and inherent human flaws through which advertisement inserts itself and is introjected cannot be fully controlled by volition and conscious intellect.
Thats the whole point of when I said that basically NOBODY will admit they are influenced by advertisement, and yet, the budget of this industry proves it influences people A LOT..
sure, maybe education and instruction might help a little in not being affected so directly, but the little ´eating worm´ of consumerism still finds a backdoor through the unconscious.. Even if one doesnt notice, no matter how instructed, advertisement influences us all, maybe not directly but it does, at least to make us used to the idea that consumerism is ´normal´, that such ideals are ok, getting accustomed to certain visuals, etc..
The way I see it, advertisement is a pernicious disease, and banning it is not being a dictator or authoritarian, it is simply realizing it´s direct negative effects to health, while NO advantages arise, and just like diseases are eradicated and this is not authoritarianism, its SANITY, so should advertisement be erradicated.
imo of course
Well, I can't see anyone being bothered if they were banned (I wouldn't really mind, although I do like knowing what's out there, and as I don't have telly I don't get annoyed by the ads all the time like you lot do).
Except for the whole advertising industry who'd have to find other jobs... I'm sure some of them are shits anyway but still... what other useless social function would have to be invented to keep people employed instead? Why don't we ban all other pointless industries (there are a lot of them)?
And entrepreneurial small businesses... how are they going to inform people of their goods? Word of mouth alone? Or cut down more trees to make junk mail? Maybe the multinationals would become further strengthened without any threat of new competition?
I'm just playing devil's advocate here, I'm not actually against your idea.
Except for the whole advertising industry who'd have to find other jobs... I'm sure some of them are shits anyway but still... what other useless social function would have to be invented to keep people employed instead? Why don't we ban all other pointless industries (there are a lot of them)?
And entrepreneurial small businesses... how are they going to inform people of their goods? Word of mouth alone? Or cut down more trees to make junk mail? Maybe the multinationals would become further strengthened without any threat of new competition?
I'm just playing devil's advocate here, I'm not actually against your idea.
ohayoco said:
I dont have television either, but I live in a big city so there's tons of outdoors, busdoors, taxidoors, magazine ads, internet ads, plus the ocasional tv that passes my way
I think products could still be catalogued and listed in thousands of specialized websites, or tv channels made ONLY for advertisement, and then if people wanted, they could see it, if not, then they didnt have to.. what Im oposed is this inconvenient and undesired flashing of advertisement when you're actually looking for other things and DONT want to know about the latest god-knows-what
and yes you're right, some people would be out of jobs. but so were SS people out of jobs when the third reich fell down, but we can't keep the third reich just to mantain jobs, can we? humans are so adaptable, its incredible.. Im sure all those people could use their skills for many more productive things..
once again, this is only my opinion of course
Maybe, indeed i am influenced by advertising in more ways than i am aware of. But this can only be so when adverts somehow appeal to things in my field of interest. I'm not gonna buy a new mercedes, no matter how succesfull the people driving them, look like on TV.
I wouldn't overestimate the advertising industry. I know they try to play with your mind, but they can only succeed because of this; In for instance, the entire presidential-election campaign, in each speech each of the candidates hold, each word is being carefully picked to appeal to people's instincts. But 99.9 percent of all carefully picked words and decissions (what collour tie to wear, etc.) has no effect on people. It's the fact that you watch these ads, see the debates, hear the speeches, for all these months, all the time, that can make some tiny things can start to have a little effect. The advertisers are shooting their machineguns empty randomly, instead of them being snipers.
And offcourse, a beautyfull woman with almost no clothes on will catch my attention, you don't have to be a rocket scientist to think of that. So it's actually that there are so many advetisements with beatyfull women with almost no clothes on, that convince me, advertizers don't know exactly what they're doing.
I wouldn't overestimate the advertising industry. I know they try to play with your mind, but they can only succeed because of this; In for instance, the entire presidential-election campaign, in each speech each of the candidates hold, each word is being carefully picked to appeal to people's instincts. But 99.9 percent of all carefully picked words and decissions (what collour tie to wear, etc.) has no effect on people. It's the fact that you watch these ads, see the debates, hear the speeches, for all these months, all the time, that can make some tiny things can start to have a little effect. The advertisers are shooting their machineguns empty randomly, instead of them being snipers.
And offcourse, a beautyfull woman with almost no clothes on will catch my attention, you don't have to be a rocket scientist to think of that. So it's actually that there are so many advetisements with beatyfull women with almost no clothes on, that convince me, advertizers don't know exactly what they're doing.
I didn't pick up on it earlier but I don't agree that socialism is 'weaker' than communism. It's more realistic, more pragmatic, not weaker. And there's so many different types of socialism, leaning towards the capitalist, anarchist or communist sides of things, it shouldn't be dismissed as one concept. There's only one type of true capitalism really- unregulated profit maximising- and we already know from the industrial revolution, and the horrific state of affairs in the countries that Nike & Co. make their consumer crap that that's not an option.
I don't believe in the subconscious, there's a lot of Freud I don't believe in and psychotherapy isn't called a pseudo-science for nothing. I do agree on the negative effects of advertising, they don't bother me but I agree that they do influence others. But really it's the culture that's at fault, not the advertising. We need to change the culture, and that's done through education. Like how climate change awareness has now gone from a fringe concern to a cultural norm.
I'm against banning one thing when really it's another thing that's at fault. That's a bit like banning drugs instead of helping people to get over addiction.
endlessness said:
I don't believe in the subconscious, there's a lot of Freud I don't believe in and psychotherapy isn't called a pseudo-science for nothing. I do agree on the negative effects of advertising, they don't bother me but I agree that they do influence others. But really it's the culture that's at fault, not the advertising. We need to change the culture, and that's done through education. Like how climate change awareness has now gone from a fringe concern to a cultural norm.
I'm against banning one thing when really it's another thing that's at fault. That's a bit like banning drugs instead of helping people to get over addiction.