Amanita Muscaria/Pantherina interaction with MAOI

[maranello551]

Is this combo safe?

Could one safely take fly agarics and/or panther caps and caapi and/or rue together?

 

[Irrlicht]

Edited because very bad type o - was thinking of Muscimol but wrote Muscarin. Sorry about that, provided links although were right from beginning. Thank you

First of all: mixed consume almost always bears a greater risk than a pure trip. And in my opinion one should have experience with the pure substance/plant before trying any mixture, especially regarding the doses!
Thank you pitubo for correcting.

Now to your question. Maybe you know already, anyway some basics:
The main psycoactive ingredient of Agarin/Pantherine is Ibotenic Acid, which is chemically very unstable so by drying the mushrooms it decarboxylizes and forms Muscimol - which is more potent (psychoactive) and less toxic (better consume dried shrooms).
Muscimol is a GABA-A Rezeptor Agonist, GABA-A is a primary inhibitory neurotransmitter of our brain.
Although there are reports of higher serotonin levels due to the consume of Muscimol, this is not its main mechanism of action. So if you plan to boost the Muscimol experience by taking a low dose of MAOI (e.g. caapi) pharmacologically you will most certainly not notice any effect.


For pharmacological information/effects please refer to Erowid or Wikipedia and follow the references if you are in search of primary literature.

 

[pitubo]

The main psycoactive ingredient of Agarin/Pantherine is Ibotenic Acid, which is chemically very unstable so by drying the mushrooms it decarboxylizes and forms Muscarin - which is more potent (psychoactive) and less toxic (better consume dried shrooms).

That is wrong!

You are confusing muscarine with muscimol. Both of these substances can be present in A. Muscaria and Pantherina, although muscarine only in trace amounts.

Personally I don't think combining a more sedative hypnotic compound (muscarin) with DMT (rye) the most arousing, eye opening, revealing, uplifting substance there is, makes any sense - because what are we looking for by consuming Spice if not for its unique effects!
Clouding an otherwise crystal clear experience seems pointless to me.

Again you are confusing things: syrian rue (not rye!) does not contain DMT. It contains harmala alkaloids and also other alkaloids of the vasicine family. The interaction between harmala alkaloids, reversibe inhibitors of MAO-A (RIMA) and ibotenic acid and muscimol is likely of a different nature than with DMT.

While the some designate the effects of harmala alkaloids "clouding" in a sense, the harmalas do actually have good synergy with smoked DMT. This is what makes changa special.

Please be more careful when spreading "knowledge".

Maranello551, as I have said here before: from personal experience, I believe that a synergy between psilocybin and muscimol may exist. I have no idea about the combination of harmala alkaloids with muscimol. Be careful and please report what you find. As I have said here before: it would be nice if you could add more to the site by documenting your own research and experiences. Summarily asking for information that you might have googled yourself is not very useful to others.

 

[Irrlicht]

That is wrong!

You are confusing muscarine with muscimol. Both of these substances can be present in A. Muscaria and Pantherina, although muscarine only in trace amounts.

You are right. Thanks for correcting. I was thinking about Muscimol, don't know what slipped through my brain that moment. There is clearly no way that Ibotenic Acid can form Muscarin through decarboxylation ! Will prooveread more carefully.

Personally I don't think combining a more sedative hypnotic compound (muscarin) with DMT (rye) the most arousing, eye opening, revealing, uplifting substance there is, makes any sense - because what are we looking for by consuming Spice if not for its unique effects!

Clouding an otherwise crystal clear experience seems pointless to me.

Again you are confusing things: syrian rue (not rye!) does not contain DMT. It contains harmala alkaloids and also other alkaloids of the vasicine family. The interaction between harmala alkaloids, reversibe inhibitors of MAO-A (RIMA) and ibotenic acid and muscimol is likely of a different nature than with DMT.

While the some designate the effects of harmala alkaloids "clouding" in a sense, the harmalas do actually have good synergy with smoked DMT. This is what makes changa special.

Please be more careful when spreading "knowledge".

Thanks again and again I didn't think carefully enough before writing - shows me I have to take more time to write a reply. Of course I know the purpose of harmalas in changa. Anyway my statement about combining DMT with Muscimol remains the same.

I took the freedom to delete and correct those passages from my original post, to not further entangle readers.

 

[downwardsfromzero]

This might be relevant:

Bufotenine, another central-acting substance, but only when administered parenterally, was isolated from a German specimen of Amanita citrina (A. mappa) and also reported to occur in A. muscaria and A. pantherina. Investigations of North American species revealed the presence of this indole in A. porphyria, A. tomentella, and A. citrina. It could not be detected in other Amanita species including A. muscaria and A. pantherina. Subsequent analyses of European A. citrina revealed the presence of several tryptamine derivatives in addition to bufotenine. Notable was the presence of N,N-dimethyltryptamine, a substance which is a psychotropic agent, but occurring in too low a concentration to produce any possible physiological activity of this mushroom. To date there is no indication of its existence in A. muscaria.
Source: UNODC UNODC - Bulletin on Narcotics - 1970 Issue 4 - 004

From: Amanita citrina (A. bulbosa) is confirmed psychoactive! - Bufotenine and 5-MeO-DMT - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

 

[travsha]

Maranello551, as I have said here before: from personal experience, I believe that a synergy between psilocybin and muscimol may exist.

I have certainly noticed this as well. I dont have very much experience with Amanitas, but I found they combine incredibly nicely with psilocybin (and LSD for that matter). The combo is incredibly powerful, and I was only working with smoked Amanitas...

Waiting a couple of weeks while my medicine is curing and getting to the sweet spot, but soon I will be trying some edible Amanitas and after a couple solo journeys I will probably try adding psilocybin again since I had such good experiences with the smoked amanitas with psilocybin.

I would love to hear more about your experiences with Amanita or amanita with psilocybin if you are open to sharing

 

[rOm]

As long as my experience went, the synergy was more noticable betweeen high dose of tryptamine than with harmalas only.
Now dosage plays a big part I suspect.
I know some experienced synergy with ayahuasca - it has been rare, and I wonder if it's more a synergy with the tryptamine effect or the caapi itself.

 

[maranello551]

Maranello551, as I have said here before: from personal experience, I believe that a synergy between psilocybin and muscimol may exist.

I have certainly noticed this as well. I dont have very much experience with Amanitas, but I found they combine incredibly nicely with psilocybin (and LSD for that matter). The combo is incredibly powerful, and I was only working with smoked Amanitas...

Waiting a couple of weeks while my medicine is curing and getting to the sweet spot, but soon I will be trying some edible Amanitas and after a couple solo journeys I will probably try adding psilocybin again since I had such good experiences with the smoked amanitas with psilocybin.

I would love to hear more about your experiences with Amanita or amanita with psilocybin if you are open to sharing

So I left this thread open a while back, and have since then been looking into starting the Amanita Wine/Living Bread experiment, which I saw you began fiddling with a little while ago on a thread you started (which I am not allowed to respond to because i'm "new".)

I noticed 3 things:

1. The first is that on the thread you had started (Amanita Muscaria - Holy Grail Method - Experience reports - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus), one member (Flower Witch) made a claim that I have heard a few times before and that i have always been intrigued by: " pantherinas have been much more powerful".

I have heard both this, and that Pantherinas actually cause less nausea than Muscarias as well.

This leads me to my first point --------> Amanita Pantherina Wine/Living Bread[/b

2. The second is that the "Living Bread seems like a far more efficient way of cultivating the Muscimol than the wine and yet nobody seems to want to try it (this is especially strange as the process requires very little variation from what is called for when making Psilocybe grain spawn.....)

3. As we were saying, if A. Muscaria, and Psilocybes have a strong synergy, perhaps Pantherina Wine and Psilocybes may as well, but to a higher degree...