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Amateur MDMA assisted therapy

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Citta

Citta

Skepdick
I would like to have some input on an issue that presented itself very recently. A friend of mine is having some issues that she is seeing a shrink for. She were mocked a lot when she went to elemtary school and later on a little bit in middle school. The visits to her shrink is not helping at all, or so she says, so she came to me asking about MDMA. She's been reading a little bit about it and it being used in therapeutical settings with success, so she figured that perhaps she would try the same since the work with her shrink ain't getting anywhere. She is having some issues with her self image, she might be a little bit depressed (she says she is not but I fear she is) and in general is feeling tired and stuff.

She wants to do MDMA to see if it might give her some clarity into her issues and what it really is that is bothering her and perhaps give her some clue as to what she needs to be working on. I have no training in doing therapy, but I have the means to provide her with the drug, a place to be and to be there to help and listen to whatever might come up and ask some questions here and there to keep her on track in exploring her feelings. Now, considering that I am not a professional and that she is having some issues, I am a little bit reluctant (or at least uncertain) about this whole thing. It is solely her choice to put the drug into her body, but I feel that I am taking a certain amount of responsibility here if I provide her with the drug. Is it reasonable to do this? Is it reasonable to provide the help she is asking from me? I would love to help her, she being a friend and all.

I know most of you here are not professionals either, and that none of us is really fit to give any advice on this, but I thought I could bring it up nevertheless to see if any good input or advice popped up.

Thanks for any input people =)
 
my advice is let her smoke some fat hits of dmt

"She wants to do MDMA to see if it might give her some clarity into her issues and what it
really is that is bothering her and perhaps give her some clue as to what she needs to be working on."

molly has always been a twacked out party drug from my perspective and nothing else
 
anuggslife said:
molly has always been a twacked out party drug from my perspective and nothing else
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It's a twacked out party drug if you use it at a twacked out party. It's a very therapeutic tool for the psyche if you use it in a calm and relaxed setting of love and understanding with others who are on the same page.
 
anuggslife said:
molly has always been a twacked out party drug from my perspective and nothing else
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I don't agree at all. MDMA is very effective in putting down emotional filters so that you can think honestly with yourself and share honestly with others. Yes, it can be a great party drug if you use it as such, but it can be a great tool for therapy if used as such as well.
 
Maybe you should Google: "MDMA Therapy" to get a basic idea of how can you get this going on. I have google'd it and the search engine throws nice results and interesting information. IMO, MDMA is not a very dangerous drug if you want to use it to help others. Things usually don't get out of control, and if she is your friend things will go smoother. Be there, talk with her, support her and be comprehensive.

It's hard to give advice if one doesn't know the history and problems of the person in detail. By reading what you wrote Citta, it seems that the problem is about self-confidence. So going to the gym and learning to play a musical instrument would be nice things to start or keep on doing to boost a little that confidence.
 
My psych book says that Prolonged use of MDMA can cause brain damage in the cognitive regions which is permanent. Keep in mind that it states prolonged use, but as with anything abuse will cause damage to you so that should be taken in context, plus it's a college book so they arent going to go around saying hey no bad side effects this stuff rocks. Use and abuse are 2 entirely different things, if you use anything for a short while it wont hurt you it's long term repeated use that does damage, so the main worry you should have IMHO is if it is addictive. I have tried this drug 2 times and I swore I would never do it again. I learned at least for me that it could be easily addictive, if not physically mentally, who doesnt want to go around feeling good all the time.
 
Wow, this is a very complicated issue you bring forth. I personally have no experience with MDMA but am well aware of its therapeutic potential if used in a proper mental and physical context. You might check out some of Ann Shulgin's (probably the original MDMA-assisted therapist) work on the subject. There's a link to one of her talks on the "psychedelic therapy" thread at psychedelic therapy - Coalition for Entheogenic Liberty - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus . Also check out the book "Secret Chief Revealed" about another underground psychedelic therapist. You'll probably find useful tips from both of these sources.

I don't want to give advice I'm not qualified to give, but from what I've learned from actual therapists, at the minimum you need to create an appropriate, safe, therapeutic context for the MDMA session, just like with any successful therapy session, one in which your friend will feel safe opening and exploring her heart-space. Hopefully we'll soon see a day when people like myself and your friend can legally benefit from therapeutic applications of these materials.
 
MDMA is an amazing theraputic tool..I only used it 3 times and its been probly 3 years since I last had any..but I plan on having an MDMA session some time this summer. MDMA was what completely brought all my guards down one night after my freind dosed me at an adham shaikh show and it was the first time I was able to fully let go socially and not care what people thought and just dance, I was so thankful for my friend and that she chose to give me MDMA..I fell in love with the openess and love of the rave scene that night. People will use all sorts of drugs as simply party drugs, even DMT..just becasue some people abuse MDMA will never change the way I feel about it.
 
Personally I'd sooner suggest ayawaska or mescaline.

I remember the first time I did MDMA, aged 17. The experience was so amazing that it made me want to do it all the time. Serious mental addiction potential with this drug. But it made me depressed for days afterwards, so after a few times I decided I shouldn't take it again. For years and years afterwards I'd end up asking around for pills every time I was drunk enough to not know better. Once years later I did one or two es for three weekends in a row and just that was enough to make me feel like I was becoming totally unhinged.

I know so many people who have got seriously messed up on e. Both my cousin and a friend ended up in hospital. My brother ended up on prozac a decade ago and may well still be on it which was apparently something to do with seratonin depletion from the e. I went out with a girl who spent a whole summer in Ibiza taking e every night, wow prozac wasn't enough for her after that, she was on beta blockers.

From my personal experience, I have only one thing to say about people who think introducing someone to e is not dangerous: 'wishful thinking'.

I don't know much about the studies of its therapeutic potential, but from what I have experienced and seen I would never introduce anyone to this drug. It just feels too good. Ayawaska, on the other hand... completely unaddictive, and I hear nothing but good things about its healing powers.

Maybe mescaline would be a good idea? One could see it as half-way between e and ayawaska: it has a subtly MDMA-ish 'love' feeling, as well as being therapeutically insightful.
 
I'd say mescaline would definitely be something to look into if this is the route you and your friend want to pursue. All the good of MDMA without the bad. A much deeper and more real experience that can let a person reach far within themselves.
 
ohayoco said:
Personally I'd sooner suggest ayawaska or mescaline.

I remember the first time I did MDMA, aged 17. The experience was so amazing that it made me want to do it all the time. Serious mental addiction potential with this drug.
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The fact that you wanted to do it all the time doesn't mean everyone will want to do it all the time.
I can conceive the notion that LSD, 2CB, mushrooms, mescaline or ayahuasca can be also helpful in a so called 'amateur assisted therapy'. But MDMA has proven to be a reliable tool for helping people in depression and lack of self-confidence. MDMA is not meant to be abused, nor any other drug.

Citta's friend is going through psychotherapy and is dealing with stuff that can be possibly solved without the use of ANY drug. If you read what Citta wrote, you'll see that her friend is the one that suggested MDMA. Not Citta. Why not let her friend try it and decide what to make of it?

I find that option more ethic than suggesting stronger hallucinogens, which in some cases may disrupt her mental stability even more.
If MDMA doesn't work the way Citta's friend expected it, it's not all Citta's responsibility. She was the one that asked for it.
If Ayahuasca or Mescaline makes Citta's friend go delusional or have trouble dealing with real life, it's all Citta's responsibility.

Citta's friend is not asking for the red pill. She is asking for an empathogen to improve her own confidence. That's all.
 
I gotta go with cloud and fractal on this one. Two sessions with MDMA brought me so much emotional healing, I cannot even believe it. Completely unique in a way that none of my journeys with mescaline or aya have touched. Sometimes you need a screwdriver, not a hammer or saw.

Edit: Also, I would personally feel much more comfortable acting as a guide in this particular situation with MDMA. In people with self-esteem issues, and certainly in my own case, entheogens can bring forth material that can be extremely difficult to deal with. MDMA seems to have a built in shield to prevent that from going bad.
 
clouds said:
The fact that you wanted to do it all the time doesn't mean everyone will want to do it all the time.
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I wasn't suggesting otherwise. I'm just saying a lot of people do like it too much, so there is potential for problems.
clouds said:
MDMA is not meant to be abused, nor any other drug.
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Yes, we all know what we're meant and not meant to do! Doesn't mean we'll not do it. From my own personal experience and the experiences of people I know, MDMA seems far more damaging than ayawaska and mescaline.
clouds said:
If you read what Citta wrote, you'll see that her friend is the one that suggested MDMA. Not Citta. Why not let her friend try it and decide what to make of it?
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Wouldn't it be better for her to research by reading this thread and other sources like those studies and Erowid etc first before jumping into anything? That would be much better than to just give it to her in ignorance.
clouds said:
If Ayahuasca or Mescaline makes Citta's friend go delusional or have trouble dealing with real life, it's all Citta's responsibility.
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Does ayahuasca make people delusional? I've never heard of that. I've only heard of brief delusions from vaporising DMT. Isn't she already having trouble with real life? I do get what you're saying here, but no-ones saying he should push anything on her. People are just offering personal opinions from their own experience here, not giving medical advice.
clouds said:
Citta's friend is not asking for the red pill.
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Low dose aya or mescaline is not the red pill! Low dose mescaline isn't very psychedelic, it's more an empathogen at that level. And the purpose of my post was to warn her that MDMA is not a bed of roses in case she's unaware of where that road can potentially lead. Why do people who love MDMA insist on putting their fingers in their ears whenever someone else has not had such a rosy experience with it? I've noticed MDMA fans do that.
clouds said:
She is asking for an empathogen to improve her own confidence. That's all.
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Is there research to show that MDMA improves confidence? Maybe while you're on it, but not when you've got the suicidal tuesdays. Actually, I never found it improved confidence during the experience. Just made me compulsively talk crap to strangers, and that's not really confidence, it's fake. Actually it brought on some really paranoid moments during sometimes, it's not all up. Cocaine, now that does improve confidence when you take it. Should we recommend she take that? Wanting to improve confidence is not a reason to take a potentially dangerous substance. Confidence can be learnt without drugs. Are all other avenues really exhausted? Maybe suggest she read the cognitive behaviour therapy book "Feeling Good" by David D. Burns, etc? I found that book far more useful than the psychologist.

Ask yourself, why are you attacking my personal opinion? I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings by not being a fan of MDMA! Citta asked for opinions, I gave mine. This thread isn't about attacking my opinion, it's about giving your own to Citta and friend so they can make their own minds up. You know what, I'm not going to bother giving opinions anymore, I really can't be bothered any more. You've quashed my desire to voice unpopular information.
 
I dont really buy the whole depression the day after thing..I think that kinda means you have abused it personally. There is no evidence as far as I know of seratonin depletion from taking MDMA once, or once ever few months etc..only when people overdo it. If there is evidence of it I would like to see it.

After I took MDMA I felt great..the afterglow the day after and for the next week even was really great, I wasnt depressed at all.

Mescaline can be good for this as well..but only in low doses from my experience. Fully psychedelic doses of mescaline for me are as hectic as any other psychedelic..there are advantages to MDMA though.

I also never felt addicted to MDMA jsut becasue of how great I felt durring the experience. I dont know what thats about but evry time I took it it was like a year apart. I think thats to due with the context your taking it in..
 
ohayoco, I think I can understand what you really meant, which is: "Be careful, MDMA may not be what many people think it is. Actually, is kind of dangerous, specially if abused". And then I replied: "MDMA, Ayahuasca or Mescaline can help in solving the specific problem Citta's friend is having. With the exception that having (you never said low doses) experiences with stronger hallucinogens may cause her to deal with much more than she could handle at the moment. Abuse is dangerous for all substances."

I am not a 'fan' of MDMA (or any drug for that matter), so in a sense, I don't care if you talk bad about it. I do think however, that MDMA would be a perfect tool for trying to help her friend dealing with that type of issues (since she asked for it). I agree that a a low dose of mescaline could be helpful too. But apparently she is not interested in that, but in MDMA. I hope you understand that suggesting other drugs and giving them increases Citta's responsibility if things (by some reason) go wrong.

ohayoco said:
Confidence can be learnt without drugs.
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I agree 100%
 
fractal enchantment said:
I dont really buy the whole depression the day after thing..I think that kinda means you have abused it personally.
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I just don't get how MDMA fans believe this. Are you seriously saying that you've never met anyone who has this problem? So many people have this problem, I've heard it from others so many times, some stay well away because of it but others put up with it for a while at least because they love MDMA so much.

1 in 100,000 are allergic to MDMA and could die if they took it once. I have no idea how to mitigate against that, to be safe should someone start off on 1000th of a dose and work up to be safe? Something that people should know about before taking it.

Also, what's the deal with how some people feel ill and puke from it, particularly girls? These people seem to be sensitive to the drug in some way, what's that about? Are these people mildly allergic?

I never took more than one pill at a time, and I never took more than two in one night, and never took it more than once a week. That's pretty tame use compared to most users.
 
of course I have seen lots of people fucked up from ecstacy pills..but these people would take anything you gave to them, MDMA or not..to me they were just poly drug abusers who has access to lots of e pills so took them every day and ended up fucked up due to it..its all about the context in which you approach it.

Im only speaking from what I saw and what I personally experienced. I personally never felt the need to go and take it again and again. I took it 3 times over a 3 year period and only benifited from it. I went from never wanting to try MDMA becasue of how I saw people abusing pills, to learning about MDMA therapy and reading stuff from shulgin and approaching it with respect for what it can do though. Knowledge is power and context is everything.
 
Well now you know one person who will get messed up after just one pill, whatever the context (me). I can't take the stuff. The next four or five days are awful if I take one. Like all the joy has been sucked out of my soul, and only a vacuum of despair is left.

'Suicidal tuesdays' is not rare... it was talked about often in clubbing magazines back then, it was considered to be part of the deal for many people.

Of the people I mentioned, only my brother was a poly drug abuser (lots of LSD and lots of ecstacy, he used to smoke weed and take speed when he was younger but dropped those for acid and e). The girl who did e every day yeah obviously she abused it. My cousin took e every weekend and smoked weed. The guy who ended up in hospital hadn't even smoked weed more than a few times before- he was hospitalised off his first pill. Maybe he was one of the allergic people... don't know, he never took it again while I knew him. My point wasn't that one e is bad, more to let you guys know that for years I personally had wished that I had never taken e in the first place. I don't see why being honest about having experienced that should be taboo.
 
well id never take pills for one thing, how can you be sure it was even pure unadulterated MDMA?..only MDMA crystals from a trusted source would I take. But at the time you got into MDMA, were you honeslty into psychedelics the way you are now?..with knowledge of set and setting and context you take these things in..Ive known people that took LSD almost every single day for over a year, while others respect it for what it is and dont overdo it like that.

And there is nothing taboo about what you are saying, I agree with you, people do tend to overdo MDMA and Ive seen how it fucks people up, makes them very sketchy and edgy almost like meth users..just I never felt the desire to keep taking it at all, so I never experienced those side effects personally.

I do think though that MDMA is alot safer than alcohol.
 
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